Are beliefs chosen? Or involuntary?

TheLightWithin

TheLightWithin

...through a glass, darkly
Messages
1,778
Reaction score
1,044
Points
108
This thread might also go well under Philosophy.

What do you all think? Do we choose our beliefs? Or are we convinced of something, somewhat involuntarily? Not involuntary as in forced, but involuntarily in the same sense as say understanding something (they are related I believe)

My sense is that beliefs are partly involuntary -- For example, I cannot help but believe my cats are in the house as I saw them moments ago. I cannot choose to believe than anybody in this forum is over 200 years old or something. I would not be able to be convinced of it -- it would take some impressive evidence. However, our preferences and wishes do influence what we accept esp when it comes to religious, philosophical, and political matters. So, kind of a conundrum?

Reactions?
 
Yes to the continuum.

There are so many factors, society, upbringing, friends and family, access to information and live groups... individual choice plays a role, but it is often a choice limited by very strong outside expectations.

Also, a matter of emphasis. In my opinion, most people place more value on good community life than on matters of doctrine, scripture, or personal conviction or belief. If everyone donates food to the monks or goes to prayer or decorates their house for a festival, then it makes sense to join in that, simply to have good relations, even if personally, someone may be that much more passionate about football or music than about religion.

My own lack of belief came as a bit of a surprise to me, as a personal revelation in a way, not voluntarily at all at the time. Life can be strange.
 
TheLightWithin said:
What do you all think? Do we choose our beliefs?
Click to expand...
Depends on a number of circumstances. Home. Locality. Culture. Time ...

TheLightWithin said:
However, our preferences and wishes do influence what we accept esp when it comes to religious, philosophical, and political matters. So, kind of a conundrum?
Click to expand...
Well the former examples, cats, etc., are the result of empirical analysis. When it comes to religion, politics, etc., not so easily discernable, not open to empirical determination.

'No man is an island', the poet said, and was right. We are well less self-determining than we like to think we are. Even anarchists act in a manner that reflects their culture, zeitgeist, sitz-im-leben, and so forth. Personal autonomy is a bright cup of thew modern west, but largely illusory.

It all goes back to Socrates, I suppose, who supposedly said: ""The unexamined life is not worth living." Most people would declare they have thought through and made their choices, but I reckon most would be staggered if shown how much their choices are not their own ...
 
I chose my beliefs because they made sense to me. I did not choose the process by which things do make sense to me.
Choice is such a slippery word sometimes.
 
I once had a good friend who loved nothing more than the cut and thrust of debate. His knowledge was encyclopedic and his debating skills were razor-sharp. I saw him win many arguments but oddly nobody seemed to change their opinion. Emotions have a bigger role in choice than we might think.
 
I believe family culture and society play a huge role. For me, growing up in a Christian household started me on my journey but it was a series of profound and supernatural experiences with God that sealed the deal. Politically I grew up in the Reagan era and followed my elders into being Republican but within the past decade or so my eyes have been opened to how corrupt our government is in the US. I would still vote Republican as they tend to cater to my moral beliefs even if it's just to get votes but they are all mostly liars and thieves. I believe most of our history taught in schools is a lie. So at my age my choices are made by me.. when I was young I would say I was mostly influenced. Scary thought for our impressionable youth.
 
RabbiO said:
Could you provide some examples?
Click to expand...
Sure. How Native Americans were treated and pushed west and further west. How slavery is in our constitution as slaves were worth 3/4 a person. Our Declaration of Independence that all men are created equal is hogwash. That's not how people were treated.
This you tuber taught history and does an excellent job of explaining what they don't teach. He has quite a few videos but these two especially made me made me cry. They don't teach of Japanese internment camps or the testing of radiation on the citizens and members of the military. They quit teaching that Leif Erickson discovered the Americas before Columbus my son didn't even know what I was talking about. There's more but these are enough.


 
Faithfulservant said:
Sure. How Native Americans were treated and pushed west and further west. How slavery is in our constitution as slaves were worth 3/4 a person. Our Declaration of Independence that all men are created equal is hogwash. That's not how people were treated.
This you tuber taught history and does an excellent job of explaining what they don't teach. He has quite a few videos but these two especially made me made me cry. They don't teach of Japanese internment camps or the testing of radiation on the citizens and members of the military. They quit teaching that Leif Erickson discovered the Americas before Columbus my son didn't even know what I was talking about. There's more but these are enough.


Click to expand...
I do like the Knowing Better Youtube channel. I've listened to a good amount of his stuff. His videos are getting looonng... so I have to wait until I'm doing a big project around the house so I can put one of his videos on and listen to it.
 
Leveller said:
I once had a good friend who loved nothing more than the cut and thrust of debate. His knowledge was encyclopedic and his debating skills were razor-sharp. I saw him win many arguments but oddly nobody seemed to change their opinion. Emotions have a bigger role in choice than we might think.
Click to expand...
Emotions, sure, and our comprehension level and the way we process information.
Sometimes we don't so much "choose" to believe or disbelieve something, so much as we cannot believe it, because it doesn't make sense.
I cannot choose to believe 2+2=5 (George Orwell notwithstanding) but thru intimidation or desire for conformity or not to appear foolish I may pretend to believe it if others insist on it.
(the concept of the Emperor's New Clothes and the Asch conformity experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments come to mind as well)
 
TheLightWithin said:
I do like the Knowing Better Youtube channel. I've listened to a good amount of his stuff. His videos are getting looonng... so I have to wait until I'm doing a big project around the house so I can put one of his videos on and listen to it.
Click to expand...
I like to color.. it's a great stress reliever for me.. I put on the videos and color away!
 
They are involuntary... you cannot decide what you're convinced about.

You can avoid exposure so that doubt does not arise, but more deeply you know the reason is a weak position.
 
Depends on the individual, society and family to me.

I know folks who have been raised in deeply religious families who if they were to change religion they are threatened with exile from their parents, brothers and sisters.

I have met those who that would be too much to bear, and others who thought their freedom to think was more important.

Folks that think blood is thicker than water don't know the whole phrase.

Note when I say deeply religious families this does not apply to any one religion...I have seen this in all abrahamic beliefs as well as Hindu....when a cult level fanaticism prevails freewill and choice sometimes have seemingly unsurmountable consequences.
 
wil said:
Depends on the individual, society and family to me.

I know folks who have been raised in deeply religious families who if they were to change religion they are threatened with exile from their parents, brothers and sisters.

I have met those who that would be too much to bear, and others who thought their freedom to think was more important.

Folks that think blood is thicker than water don't know the whole phrase.

Note when I say deeply religious families this does not apply to any one religion...I have seen this in all abrahamic beliefs as well as Hindu....when a cult level fanaticism prevails freewill and choice sometimes have seemingly unsurmountable consequences.
Click to expand...

Does the threat of exile from the family actually induce genuine belief?

I guess we're speaking on different levels, going through the motions out of fear doesn't actually mean you accept anything.
 
wil said:
Depends on the individual, society and family to me.

I know folks who have been raised in deeply religious families who if they were to change religion they are threatened with exile from their parents, brothers and sisters.

I have met those who that would be too much to bear, and others who thought their freedom to think was more important.

Folks that think blood is thicker than water don't know the whole phrase.

Note when I say deeply religious families this does not apply to any one religion...I have seen this in all abrahamic beliefs as well as Hindu....when a cult level fanaticism prevails freewill and choice sometimes have seemingly unsurmountable consequences.
Click to expand...
I guess what I mean though, in terms of the actual state of mind of beliefs.
To my understanding, I cannot help what is convincing to me. If someone told me they were 200 years old, I wouldn't believe it. It doesn't matter what others think, or how dangerous it is not to believe it, or how much I might be ostracized. Now, I may FEAR those things, and thus keep silent, but it doesn't change my state of mind. My actual, honest thought that the person in question (cult leader maybe?) was NOT 200 years old, but wouldn't dare say it because of repercussions.
 
TheLightWithin said:
I guess what I mean though, in terms of the actual state of mind of beliefs.
To my understanding, I cannot help what is convincing to me. If someone told me they were 200 years old, I wouldn't believe it. It doesn't matter what others think, or how dangerous it is not to believe it, or how much I might be ostracized. Now, I may FEAR those things, and thus keep silent, but it doesn't change my state of mind.
Click to expand...

I think that heavily depends on how much consciousness one brings to their fears in such a case.

The mind is vast and powerful, and only a small part is lit up by consciousness.
 
Both. I'm sure there are plenty of reasons people believe what they believe. Our environment plays a big part of this. So does nature.

For example. My parents divorced when I was really young and I didn't really get to know my father until my teen years. My parents are night and day. I truly don't know why they married. I was raised with my mother's beliefs, yet we were at odds all of the time. We rarely agreed on anything. When I met my father, I was surprised how similar our beliefs were politically, religiously, philosophically, etc. Heck, we even like the same foods. But he had no influence on my life as a child. We definitely disagree from time to time, but we seem to be wired the same way.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wil
Do we get to choose our Abrahamic faith, or are we first chosen by God?

The Jews are God's chosen people.
Christians are first chosen by Christ.
And in Islam, Allah chooses whom he wills.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top