Plotinus

[TheLightWithin]

Can you give us an example?
Are you referring to a woman who is attacked in the park?
Why would she remain silent?

I think it's more like this: If rape were a capital crime, then juries might be less likely to convict.
Rape is viewed as a he said/she said thing.
Some people don't even seem to be able to wrap their heads around the fact of rape being a crime.

 

[TheLightWithin]

Can you give us an example?
Are you referring to a woman who is attacked in the park?
Why would she remain silent?

Women often remain silent. In some cultures the victim and her family are perceived to be the shameful ones.
Even in an open Western society, victims often feel ashamed and afraid.
The justice system is often not sympathetic
Trauma often leads to shock and distortion of memory, or the victim just not functioning well for awhile.

 

[FrankSophia]

For the record I am not advocating for the eradication of secular laws...

Those not moving from love should be punished when they harm others...

Making that a religious affair has proven disastrous.

 

[FrankSophia]

benefit to the collective well-being of society.

I wonder if you are aware of the influence of Neoplatonism on the Islamic Golden Age?

It would be awesome if we could bring the thread back to its topic...

Plotinus is regarded as the founder of this school.

 

[muhammad_isa]

That's just it, the law doesn't create righteous people..

That doesn't answer my question..
Why should righteous people want to kill a blameless rape victim?

..you need to be specific.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Rape is viewed as a he said/she said thing..

Not so much in an Islamic society..
A man is never justified in performing a sexual act with other than their wife.

 

[FrankSophia]

That doesn't answer my question..
Why should righteous people want to kill a blameless rape victim?

..you need to be specific.

You are missing my point.

They aren't righteous at all, they're just obeying their version of God.

 

[Cino]

Can you give us an example?
Are you referring to a woman who is attacked in the park?
Why would she remain silent?

I was thinking of the very common situation of woman attacked by someone in her social or family circles, someone with a degree of power over her. A team lead, for example.

 

[Cino]

Death is always as present as life, avoiding it causes wrong perspectives.

Well, yes, I read that, too.

But since you showed such interest in my own practice of this contemplation, I'm thinking you may be engaging in it, yourself, on a deeper level than intellectual knowledge. How are you doing it? What happened over time? Did anything change for you, personalky?

 

[Cino]

I wonder if you are aware of the influence of Neoplatonism on the Islamic Golden Age?

It would be awesome if we could bring the thread back to its topic...

Plotinus is regarded as the founder of this school.

Threads meander and touch other topics, this is a fact of forum communication.

Go on, tell us what you know about Neoplatonism in Islam. That would steer the conversation back to what you are interested in.

 

[RJM]

That doesn't answer my question..
Why should righteous people want to kill a blameless rape victim?

..you need to be specific.

An Indonesian woman has been flogged 100 times in Aceh province for adultery while the male involved, who denied the accusations, received just 15 lashes.

Ivan Najjar Alavi, the head of the general investigation division at the East Aceh prosecutors’ office, said the court handed down a harsher sentence for the woman after she confessed to investigators she had sex outside of her marriage.
Judges found it difficult to convict the man, who was then the head of the East Aceh fishery agency and also married, because he denied all wrongdoing, Alavi said.

“During the trial, he admitted nothing, denying all accusations. Thus, [judges] are not able to prove whether he is guilty,” Alavi told reporters after a public flogging for sharia law offenders in Aceh on Thursday.

Aceh is the only region in Muslim-majority Indonesia to impose sharia law, which allows whipping for charges including gambling, adultery, drinking alcohol and gay sex.

As an alternative ruling, the judges found the married man guilty of “showing affection to a female partner who is not his wife” after the couple were caught at a palm oil plantation in 2018.

He was initially sentenced to 30 lashes but his successful appeal at the sharia supreme court in Aceh reduced the sentence to 15.

Indonesian woman flogged 100 times for adultery, man gets 15 lashes

Man denied any wrongdoing after pair caught together in conservative Aceh province

www.theguardian.com

I'll fight to the death to prevent Sharia law being imposed in my country

 

[Thomas]

How many are familiar with him?

Yes.

I would argue that this has been the greatest influence on all that is good in both Christianity and Islam, and thus provides a great foundation for mutual dialog...

I'd rather suggest the contemplation of Christ has been the greatest and most profound mystical influence, as has the repetition of the Divine Name, and prayer ... The Liturgy ...

In terms of theology, probably 1 Corinthians 13:13 – Faith, Hope and Love – the discussion of the lexical technicalities of 'agape', like those concerning 'Logos' are of profound interest, especially to the 'Christian Platonist' – but quite rightly Clement of Alexandria said 'philosophy is the handmaid of theology'.

In terms of mystical contemplation – 1 Corinthians 13:12, and undoubtedly 1 John 3:2.

Philosophy, notably Platonism in all its forms, contributed a lexicon that assisted apologists in defending and explaining the Deposit of Faith as both reasonable and rationable, if essentially and ontologically mysterious – but that is after the fact, as it were – Platonic models are useful analogies to help explain the Trinity, but the vast majority of Christendom are not interested in such complexities, and rightly so.

The Church could arguably do without philosophy, not a strong argument in my book, but then I'm pro-philosophy – I rather see it as providential – but it cannot do without the Eucharist.

And much as I delight in discussions of implications for the Trinity found in the Enneads (I've written reams that I've never bother to post here as being too long and too technical)' of monad and henad, I rather think it is, and always has been too niche to be considered 'the greatest influence' ... but I'd delight to see that validated.

Historically, philosophy has been a mixed blessing. On the one hand it produces an Origen, on the other hand, an Arius.

And then, of course, a hero of mine, Maximus the Confessor, who's contribution is inestimable – he is the one who, in correcting the errors of Origen, in a stroke of illumined genius, flipped the triune axiomatic of the Platonists – 'stasis-kinesis-genesis' (stasis being 'rest' of souls coexisting with God; kinesis is their impulse to movement (away from God), genesis the passage of spiritual beings from the immaterial and intelligible to the bodily and sensible) on its head to render it 'genesis (‘coming into being’, creatio ex nhihilo), kinesis is the natural and God-implanted inclination (logos) of created beings to their creator, an impetus that conveys them from their point of origin to their final end – stasis the rest in the eschaton, when creatures will become by grace what God is by nature, and thus participate in the Eternal as both Paul and the Johannine scribe hinted at in the verses cited above.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I was thinking of the very common situation of woman attacked by someone in her social or family circles, someone with a degree of power over her. A team lead, for example.

Oh, OK .. I can't see what that has to do with capital punishment..
..that has more to do with corruption, surely?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I'll fight to the death to prevent Sharia law being imposed in my country

It is possible to cite any controversial case, to attempt to prove that Sharia is
not fit for purpose.
Western law also fails its victims on many occasions.

 

[FrankSophia]

Well, yes, I read that, too.

But since you showed such interest in my own practice of this contemplation, I'm thinking you may be engaging in it, yourself, on a deeper level than intellectual knowledge. How are you doing it? What happened over time? Did anything change for you, personalky?

It was a huge aspect of my journey towards truth, everything I engaged started looking absurd because I'm going to die and all of it is going to die... it was constantly in the background reminding me how temporary and pointless everything was...

Then I died spiritually, and truth arose with what remained.

 

[FrankSophia]

Threads meander and touch other topics, this is a fact of forum communication.

Go on, tell us what you know about Neoplatonism in Islam. That would steer the conversation back to what you are interested in.

They essentially equated tawhid and henosis to provide Islam its mystical dimension...

As soon as they rejected it their culture collapsed and they have never recovered.

 

[FrankSophia]

I'd rather suggest the contemplation of Christ has been the greatest and most profound mystical influence, as has the repetition of the Divine Name, and prayer ... The Liturgy ...

Most of the Christians I meet hate the mystical and think it's of the devil so it's odd that you suggest Christianity is the origin, indeed the bible authors show influence from Greek tradition and continue to expand on their ideas to develop their deeper aspects... none of this seems to be inherent and the amount of pushback you get for suggesting those interpretations shows how far Christians remain from any of that.

In terms of theology, probably 1 Corinthians 13:13 – Faith, Hope and Love – the discussion of the lexical technicalities of 'agape', like those concerning 'Logos' are of profound interest, especially to the 'Christian Platonist' – but quite rightly Clement of Alexandria said 'philosophy is the handmaid of theology'.

It's strange you seem to credit the Christians and yet agape is a Greek word, they have already broken down the various aspect of love and understand the divine dimension very well.

In terms of mystical contemplation – 1 Corinthians 13:12, and undoubtedly 1 John 3:2.

Again, through interaction with Christians it's obvious none of this is ever taken in by them, so why do you want to give the Christians credit for mystical insights?

Philosophy, notably Platonism in all its forms, contributed a lexicon that assisted apologists in defending and explaining the Deposit of Faith as both reasonable and rationable, if essentially and ontologically mysterious – but that is after the fact, as it were – Platonic models are useful analogies to help explain the Trinity, but the vast majority of Christendom are not interested in such complexities, and rightly so.

Why do you say rightly so? Do you think it's a strength to have an uneducated and unthinking population?

The Church could arguably do without philosophy, not a strong argument in my book, but then I'm pro-philosophy – I rather see it as providential – but it cannot do without the Eucharist.

Philosophy is the recognized lack of wisdom according to Plato's definition, it seems to me this is the outcome of anyone who restricts themselves to Abrahamic notions without exploring outside the tradition...

And much as I delight in discussions of implications for the Trinity found in the Enneads (I've written reams that I've never bother to post here as being too long and too technical)' of monad and henad, I rather think it is, and always has been too niche to be considered 'the greatest influence' ... but I'd delight to see that validated.

They influenced Christianity by providing a mystical and experiential reality for the followers, but to this day most Christians do not engage anything like this... somehow they manage to keep the new testament entirely superficial.

Historically, philosophy has been a mixed blessing. On the one hand it produces an Origen, on the other hand, an Arius.

Origin was probably a fellow student with Plotinus, he remained basically a Platonist applying that tradition to Christianity... which itself doesn't even provide a means to comprehend its concepts.

And then, of course, a hero of mine, Maximus the Confessor, who's contribution is inestimable – he is the one who, in correcting the errors of Origen, in a stroke of illumined genius, flipped the triune axiomatic of the Platonists – 'stasis-kinesis-genesis' (stasis being 'rest' of souls coexisting with God; kinesis is their impulse to movement (away from God), genesis the passage of spiritual beings from the immaterial and intelligible to the bodily and sensible) on its head to render it 'genesis (‘coming into being’, creatio ex nhihilo), kinesis is the natural and God-implanted inclination (logos) of created beings to their creator, an impetus that conveys them from their point of origin to their final end – stasis the rest in the eschaton, when creatures will become by grace what God is by nature, and thus participate in the Eternal as both Paul and the Johannine scribe hinted at in the verses cited above.

Modern science has confirmed there was never literally nothing, so creatio ex nihilo is wrong.

 

[TheLightWithin]

Historically, philosophy has been a mixed blessing. On the one hand it produces an Origen, on the other hand, an Arius.

Do you think Arius is bad?
I understand about the opposing viewpoint winning out over his view and calling him a heretic.
But in your view, is he bad? Are his ideas bad?

 

[TheLightWithin]

Oh, OK .. I can't see what that has to do with capital punishment..
..that has more to do with corruption, surely?

I think what it has to do with, is this:
It is hard enough to get convictions for rape anyway. There are always a lot of excuses. It is hard to prove rape. The man can just deny it. If sexual contact can be proven, the lack of consent is hard to prove. That is why it becomes a he said she said.
With that in mind, the concern is this:
If rape were a capital crime, juries might be even more reluctant to convict.
And with no small reason
Heaven forbid the man is innocent! Such as, if they caught the wrong person, or in those cases where there is a false accusation.
Someone executed for something they didn't do, is bad enough in existing capital crimes (murder and treason)

 

[muhammad_isa]

I think what it has to do with, is this:
It is hard enough to get convictions for rape anyway. There are always a lot of excuses. It is hard to prove rape. The man can just deny it. If sexual contact can be proven, the lack of consent is hard to prove. That is why it becomes a he said she said.

Did you not read my post #26 ?
"A man is never justified in performing a sexual act with other than their wife."

I know that it is a problem in the West, where the institution of marriage
has broken down.