Smoke on Mount Sinai

[Bandit]

Smoke on Mount Sinai!

I put this up in the other forum so I want to try it here instead. What I would like to know is, was there anything passed down to any Jewish people that may have a better insight on what the smoke/cloud was that hung over the tabernacle in the wilderness and what it was like. Even if you don't know for sure, maybe someone can ask a rabbi or someone in a higher position that can help me with this.
I know when it was time for the camp to move on, the smoke/cloud would lift itself from there presence.


No one knows for sure where Mt Sinai is so if possible lets keep this to what happened there as I see what happened being more important than the place it was, though the place is welcome to be discussed also.

The passages reveal God in a magnificant way. These are only some of them, if you have more on it, please add them for me.

Some say it was just a volcano and some say it was a thunderstorm. I say it was the spirit of Almighty God collected himself there in some sort of way to speak to the children of Israel. I do not believe it is a fairy tale or in need of a scientific approach.


If you guys find a nice website bring that along too. Thank You.

Exodous Chapter 19 1-25

Ex.24:12
24:12And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.
24:13And Moses rose up, and his minister Joshua: and Moses went up into the mount of God.
24:14And he said unto the elders, Tarry ye here for us, until we come again unto you: and, behold, Aaron and Hur are with you: if any man have any matters to do, let him come unto them.
24:15And Moses went up into the mount, and a cloud covered the mount.
24:16And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.
24:17And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.
24:18And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights. Deut.5:22These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.
5:23And it came to pass, when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, (for the mountain did burn with fire,) that ye came near unto me, even all the heads of your tribes, and your elders;
5:24And ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth.
5:25Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die.
5:26For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?
5:27 Go thou near, and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it.
5:28And the LORD heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the LORD said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken.
5:29O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

Deut. Chapter 10

Hebrews12:18For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
12:19And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
12:20(For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
12:21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
12:22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Exodous Chapter 18


SMOKE 7008 qiytowr kee-tore' or qiytor {kee-tore'}; from 6999; a fume, i.e. cloud:--smoke, vapour.

6225 `ashan aw-shan' a primitive root; to smoke, whether literal or figurative:--be angry (be on a) smoke. 6226 `ashen aw-shane' from 6225; smoky:--smoking.

6227 `ashan aw-shawn' from 6225; smoke, literally or figuratively (vapor, dust, anger):--smoke(-ing).

2586 kapnos kap-nos' of uncertain affinity; smoke:--smoke.


"While He yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud which said, This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: hear ye Him" (vs. 5). The mention of the "bright cloud" here is deeply significant, the more so as it was out of it that the Voice of God was heard speaking. This was the "Cloud" which had been withdrawn from Israel centuries before but which now suddenly appeared again. This was the "Cloud" in which Jehovah appeared of old--the Cloud of the Shekinah glory. It was the "Cloud" which filled the Tabernacle--"Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the Lord filled the Tabernacle" (Ex. 40:34). This was the "Cloud" which guided Israel throughout their wilderness wanderings--"And when the cloud was taken up from over the tabernacle, the children of Israel went forward in all their journeys: but if the cloud were not taken up, then they journeyed not till the day that it was taken up" (Ex. 40:36, 37). This was the "Cloud" in which Jehovah appeared in the Holy of Holies upon the mercy-seat (Lev. 16:2). This was the "Cloud" which filled the Temple of Solomon (1 Kings 8:10). Little wonder then that the disciples "fell on their faces and were sore afraid" (vs. 7)! The appearing of the Shekinah "Cloud" on the mount of transfiguration was the intimation that it shall be visible to Israel again in the Millennial Kingdom. That it will be is further evident from the prophecy of Is. 4:5--"And the Lord will create upon every dwelling-place of Mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for above all the glory shall be a defense"--the context here, shows that this has reference to the Millennium. See further Ezek. 43.

 

[dauer]

I checked Rashi on Chapt 19 and he said the thinkess of the cloud is the opaque darkness of Ex 20:18.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=9880&showrashi=true

Rashi's comment on Ex 20 18 is:

18. The people remained far off, but Moses drew near to the opaque darkness, where God was.

drew near to the opaque darkness Within three partitions: darkness, cloud, and opaque darkness, as it is said: “And the mountain was burning with fire unto the heart of the heavens, darkness, cloud, and opaque darkness” (Deut. 4:11). Opaque darkness is [synonymous with] “the thickness of the cloud,” [concerning] which He [God] had said to him [Moses], “Behold, I am coming to you in the thickness of the cloud” (Exod. 19:9). [from Mechilta]

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=9881&showrashi=true

God's Glory, Kavod, is synonymous with the Shechinah. It is God's presence in the verses you have posted. It is also, I believe, shown as fire. This is not to say that it is fire. One of the prophets says god's kavod fills all of creation. According to the traditional Jewish view I believe, the shechinah resided in the Holy of Holies until the destruction of the Temple. At this time it went into exile with the Jewish people and was everywhere they went.

Dauer

 

[Bandit]

Within three partitions: darkness, cloud, and opaque darkness

Thanks for looking at this with me Dauer

I guess I just want to know what it looked like and what energy was put off by it. I dont think it was real fire either, or real smoke. I am just in awe by the way it 'hovered' on the mountain and over the roof of the tabernacle. I know the cloud went through the temple of Solomon, I wonder if it hovered over the roof there too? But probably not because they had reached the promised land and there would be no reason for it to show that way, or lift itself because God had brought them where He said He would.

Do you have any thoughts or feelings about the three partitions? Seems like these 3 partitions had to be there to keep anyone from being swallowed or hurt by it (God). We know God is a fire too. But not literal fire. The bush was on fire but never burned.

Darkness, maybe this is what kept others from seeing what only Moses was allowed to see and kept the people from going into it.
Cloud, Maybe this is where God and Moses met and Moses would be in between the darkness and
Opaque drakness, maybe the opaque-protecting Moses from Gods radiant power and light.

I can see these three in the Tabernacle also. The cloud over the roof, then the veil (which no one could go into), and then the Holy of Holies??? or something like that?

Also there was a cloud that would come out of the top of the Holy of Holies. But I dont think this cloud was always there, like the one over the roof of the whole tabernacle. OR do you think it was in reference to the same cloud.?

What do you think Dauer?

Main Entry: opaque
Pronunciation: O-'pAk
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin opacus
1 : exhibiting opacity : blocking the passage of radiant energy and especially light
2 a : hard to understand or explain <opaque prose> b : [size=-1]OBTUSE[/size], [size=-1]THICKHEADED[/size]
- opaque noun
- opaque·ly adverb
- opaque·ness noun

 

[dauer]

Do you have any thoughts or feelings about the three partitions? Seems like these 3 partitions had to be there to keep anyone from being swallowed or hurt by it (God).

We know God is a fire too. But not literal fire. The bush was on fire but never burned.

But was the bush representative of God?

2. An angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from within the thorn bush, and behold, the thorn bush was burning with fire, but the thorn bush was not being consumed.


3. So Moses said, "Let me turn now and see this great spectacle why does the thorn bush not burn up?"


4. The Lord saw that he had turned to see, and God called to him from within the thorn bush, and He said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am!"

from ex. 3.

So Moses sees an angel of God appearing in the flame in the thorn bush. And then God calls out from within that. If you believe that God actually calls with a voice, then the issue here is really God's voice, but not God's appearance. The burning bush was really an attention-getter. There is no "God visual." There is only some sort of calling going on. And of course my insistence would be that God cannot be limited in time or space. I do believe it is said (and I don't remember the source) that God speaks in the voice of our father, in which case the voice isn't truly God's anyway and further removes any concrete associations with God. But this all may be an internal dialogue with God. Lots to ponder.

Darkness, maybe this is what kept others from seeing what only Moses was allowed to see and kept the people from going into it.
Cloud, Maybe this is where God and Moses met and Moses would be in between the darkness and
Opaque drakness, maybe the opaque-protecting Moses from Gods radiant power and light.

Not sure. You have to keep in mind that I find it unlikely any of this happened and this remains a myth for me, albeit one I hold as my own.

Opaque darkness, as Rashi explains based on another verse, is the thickness of the cloud. So I really see this as a gradual growing of the intensity of inability to properly define as coming toward the center. The cloud form works well because clouds themselves are hard to define.

Coming from a modern critical perspective, I might say that the cloud is a symbol of the storm god who, as is repeatedly stressed, lives in the high places. Lots of ways to look at it.

I can see these three in the Tabernacle also. The cloud over the roof, then the veil (which no one could go into), and then the Holy of Holies??? or something like that?

I thought the fire was at the mishkan(hebrew for tabernacle and much less cumbersome a word.) I could be mistaken. I'm too lazy to check right now.

Also there was a cloud that would come out of the top of the Holy of Holies. But I dont think this cloud was always there, like the one over the roof of the whole tabernacle. OR do you think it was in reference to the same cloud.?

You'd have to give me verses for reference. I don't like to make assumptions and sometimes context really matters.

Main Entry: opaque
Pronunciation: O-'pAk
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin opacus
1 : exhibiting opacity : blocking the passage of radiant energy and especially light

It might be more useful to look for other verses where the Hebrew word is used, but at least according to Rashi (based on another verse) this is the center of the cloud.

Dauer

 

[dauer]

For some reason the thread still says the last poster was Bandit. I am testing if another post will correct that.

Dauer

 

[Bandit]

For some reason the thread still says the last poster was Bandit. I am testing if another post will correct that.

Dauer

I know. There is some glitch that stops it from coming up sometimes

 

[Bandit]

But was the bush representative of God?

2. An angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from within the thorn bush, and behold, the thorn bush was burning with fire, but the thorn bush was not being consumed.


3. So Moses said, "Let me turn now and see this great spectacle why does the thorn bush not burn up?"


4. The Lord saw that he had turned to see, and God called to him from within the thorn bush, and He said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am!"

from ex. 3.

So Moses sees an angel of God appearing in the flame in the thorn bush. And then God calls out from within that. If you believe that God actually calls with a voice, then the issue here is really God's voice, but not God's appearance. The burning bush was really an attention-getter. There is no "God visual." There is only some sort of calling going on. And of course my insistence would be that God cannot be limited in time or space. I do believe it is said (and I don't remember the source) that God speaks in the voice of our father, in which case the voice isn't truly God's anyway and further removes any concrete associations with God. But this all may be an internal dialogue with God. Lots to ponder.



Not sure. You have to keep in mind that I find it unlikely any of this happened and this remains a myth for me, albeit one I hold as my own.

Opaque darkness, as Rashi explains based on another verse, is the thickness of the cloud. So I really see this as a gradual growing of the intensity of inability to properly define as coming toward the center. The cloud form works well because clouds themselves are hard to define.

Coming from a modern critical perspective, I might say that the cloud is a symbol of the storm god who, as is repeatedly stressed, lives in the high places. Lots of ways to look at it.



I thought the fire was at the mishkan(hebrew for tabernacle and much less cumbersome a word.) I could be mistaken. I'm too lazy to check right now.



You'd have to give me verses for reference. I don't like to make assumptions and sometimes context really matters.



It might be more useful to look for other verses where the Hebrew word is used, but at least according to Rashi (based on another verse) this is the center of the cloud.

Dauer

I dont think the bush represents God. But God used weird things like that to get peoples attention. I remember there was a bush that the goat was stuck in for Abrahams offering, instead of Isaac.
I also liked the way Rashi describes Moses bringing the people to the Smoke on Mt Sinai and refered to the people as a BRIDE and the cloud being God coming out to meet the bride. I think that is very good.

So Moses sees an angel of God appearing in the flame in the thorn bush. And then God calls out from within that. If you believe that God actually calls with a voice, then the issue here is really God's voice, but not God's appearance. The burning bush was really an attention-getter. There is no "God visual." There is only some sort of calling going on. And of course my insistence would be that God cannot be limited in time or space. I do believe it is said (and I don't remember the source) that God speaks in the voice of our father, in which case the voice isn't truly God's anyway and further removes any concrete associations with God. But this all may be an internal dialogue with God. Lots to ponder.

I dont think it is literally Gods voice either. God is too big and if he spoke straight forward in an audible voice it would blow the entire universe out of its sockets. So I am just thinking that he TONES it DOWN so to speak, and whatever is said may not even be language like words, but something there that speaks to the mind or spirit of man, in this case Moses. I dont think the people standing away from the mountain heard words...I cant say for sure what they may have heard. Sounded like a trumpet. But it did say the people heard- and that was God speaking. But the message was given to Moses to deliver.

Not sure. You have to keep in mind that I find it unlikely any of this happened and this remains a myth for me, albeit one I hold as my own.

Oh no. I believe it all happened. I am not one to take only certain parts because then there is no fulfilling of understanding. Wether it be literal or figurative is something else. But this cloud was seen too many times for it not to be something real.

Opaque darkness, as Rashi explains based on another verse, is the thickness of the cloud. So I really see this as a gradual growing of the intensity of inability to properly define as coming toward the center. The cloud form works well because clouds themselves are hard to define.

I feel it is hard to define also. i have watched many a smoke from fires and many clouds pass in thunderstorms etc. but thet do not stand still the way this cloud does. This cloud is WITH THEM and moves different from the way the describe it.
This cloud is more like a deep fog.

Clouds and smoke can be, or appear to be white, gray and black or any shade in between. (that is of course unless we add chemicals or metals that would change colors like blue and green.)

You'd have to give me verses for reference. I don't like to make assumptions and sometimes context really matters.


It might be more useful to look for other verses where the Hebrew word is used, but at least according to Rashi (based on another verse) this is the center of the cloud.

I am going to do this. The first one I will look at is the death angel that passed over egypt with the blood of the lamb on the doorposts and see how that angel is described.

I think I have all the verses in reference to cloud/smoke, as far as the the cloud that traveled with Israel.
Most of them is literal smoke from fires or clouds from storms. However, I have not looked at them all and will surley bring some more back here in a couple of days.

I am also doing this study because for the purpose of people who have in fact been blessed enough to see spirits and the way they are described by people is very similiar to this cloud over the tabernacle, but not nearly as big.
I have seen spirits also. I do not know why and dont need to see them ever again, but I have seen them.

Sort of the way Israel saw this cloud, but I am sincerly wondering if it was literally GOD or a portion of the Spirit of God revealing himslef in spirit to Israel. Sort of like temporarily lifting the veil from the eyes of the flesh.
God is a spirit. Right?
A spirit though it is invisible (to us) can still be felt and has some kind of substance to it, even though we cannot measure it or explain what it is made of.

 

[Bandit]

I dont know . Maybe the bush did represent God. ?. LOL

 

[dauer]

I dont think the bush represents God. But God used weird things like that to get peoples attention. I remember there was a bush that the goat was stuck in for Abrahams offering, instead of Isaac.

I'm not actually looking this up and could be wrong, but are you sure it was a bush and not brambles or something?

I also liked the way Rashi describes Moses bringing the people to the Smoke on Mt Sinai and refered to the people as a BRIDE and the cloud being God coming out to meet the bride. I think that is very good.

That's language found in Song of Songs and in the Jewish mystical tradition. The verb "to know" also has a sexual and spiritual connotation.

Oh no. I believe it all happened. I am not one to take only certain parts because then there is no fulfilling of understanding. Wether it be literal or figurative is something else. But this cloud was seen too many times for it not to be something real.

I don't only take some parts, at least not in the sense that I accept some myth and reject other myth. I reject the historical truth of the whole thing and anything that does not agree with the laws of physics I also reject. I do believe and find it most likely a number of the events of the tanach have historical basis, but I find it highly unlikely such a biased source could possibly be accurate. I also see no reason to believe in such things. I'm not putting down your beliefs, just explaining mine, which were heavily hidden in the other thread.

I feel it is hard to define also. i have watched many a smoke from fires and many clouds pass in thunderstorms etc. but thet do not stand still the way this cloud does. This cloud is WITH THEM and moves different from the way the describe it.
This cloud is more like a deep fog.

Well isn't a fog a cloud that's low to the ground?

I am going to do this. The first one I will look at is the death angel that passed over egypt with the blood of the lamb on the doorposts and see how that angel is described.

Is there an angel mentioned in the cloud? There are many different descriptions of angels in the text. Some of them are conflicting. The most extreme descriptions are found in Ezekiel.

I think I have all the verses in reference to cloud/smoke, as far as the the cloud that traveled with Israel.
Most of them is literal smoke from fires or clouds from storms. However, I have not looked at them all and will surley bring some more back here in a couple of days.

It may be worth looking to other places those particular hebrew words are used, to see how they are used when not in relation to this. It may turn out they just mean smoke or cloud, with no attached meaning, but I really don't know.

Sort of the way Israel saw this cloud, but I am sincerly wondering if it was literally GOD or a portion of the Spirit of God revealing himslef in spirit to Israel. Sort of like temporarily lifting the veil from the eyes of the flesh.
God is a spirit. Right?
A spirit though it is invisible (to us) can still be felt and has some kind of substance to it, even though we cannot measure it or explain what it is made of.

Well, Judaism wouldn't call God a spirit in that sense. spirit of God in Hebrew, Ruach haKodesh, just refers in Judaism to the prophetic state, basically, a state of advanced intuition and such lofty things. Judaism wouldn't connect God with anything of substance. Rather, God predates space and time and is in no way limited by space and time.

Dauer

 

[dauer]

Again! Again!

 

[Bandit]

I'm not actually looking this up and could be wrong, but are you sure it was a bush and not brambles or something?

Not sure. I have to go back to make sure. I have not had too much time to dig into yet. But I will because I love it.

That's language found in Song of Songs and in the Jewish mystical tradition. The verb "to know" also has a sexual and spiritual connotation.

I know this is true.

Well isn't a fog a cloud that's low to the ground?

Yes. I thought of that too. But there is nothing mentioned that way as of some kind of moisture in it. It did not have any specific water substance. People would have recognized that as just watery vapor or mist and not wrote about it this way. But the cloud/smoke they saw was 'like' fog in the way it kind of just hung there. Where as smoke and clouds rise and move.
This was a dry cloudy smokey thing-whatever it was they saw. But not dry as in heat and not wet as in water. LOL

I am just saying it was more like fog, because that is the way it operated.

I don't only take some parts, at least not in the sense that I accept some myth and reject other myth. I reject the historical truth of the whole thing and anything that does not agree with the laws of physics I also reject. I do believe and find it most likely a number of the events of the tanach have historical basis, but I find it highly unlikely such a biased source could possibly be accurate. I also see no reason to believe in such things. I'm not putting down your beliefs, just explaining mine, which were heavily hidden in the other thread.

This is pretty much the same road the rest of the world has taken toward it also. Including those who claim some kind of religious belief. I have noticed an increase trend in things like this especially with science, technology and mostly since the web has taken place in the last decade.
I dont find myself above the bible that way, like it is just fables and ignorant people of a by gone age.
Were you raised in it this way? Do you feel God and spirit is also subject to law of physics?

Is there an angel mentioned in the cloud? There are many different descriptions of angels in the text. Some of them are conflicting. The most extreme descriptions are found in Ezekiel.

In the burning bush there was an angel. I am seeing angels as the same thing as God as far as spirit. Beings, messengers, but made specifically as spirits. I see Ezekial as a time in history with parts of it as a repeat of history through prophecy for a later time. That could by why it is so extreme.

Well, Judaism wouldn't call God a spirit in that sense. spirit of God in Hebrew, Ruach haKodesh, just refers in Judaism to the prophetic state, basically, a state of advanced intuition and such lofty things. Judaism wouldn't connect God with anything of substance. Rather, God predates space and time and is in no way limited by space and time.

Yes. I see these things too. But there is more to Him. I know Him as a PERSON. Not just nature or storms. Not just heavens, universal, traditions and a THING. But as a person. I dont think too many know Him this way from what I see others say about Him. The righteous seed who testified of Him and were delivered knew Him. The NT saints also knew Him.
When I say substance, I dont mean physical substance.

Give me a little time Dauer. I am going to find some more on the subject and should have some more for the weekend. Then you can show me what some of the Jewish people have said about it along with your beliefs.

 

[dauer]

Not sure. I have to go back to make sure. I have not had too much time to dig into yet. But I will because I love it.


I know this is true.

Yes. I thought of that too. But there is nothing mentioned that way as of some kind of moisture in it. It did not have any specific water substance. People would have recognized that as just watery vapor or mist and not wrote about it this way. But the cloud/smoke they saw was 'like' fog in the way it kind of just hung there. Where as smoke and clouds rise and move.
This was a dry cloudy smokey thing-whatever it was they saw. But not dry as in heat and not wet as in water. LOL

Maybe Moses had made a deal with some friends of Jethro to go wait on top of har sinai with some dry ice and shofarot and some pyrotechnics until the Israelites arrived, and then all of a sudden they started making the noise and the smoke and a hootin and a hollerin and a yippin and a yappin...

Now that I'm thinking about it, isn't God's voice likened to the clap of thunder and the sound of the shofar? Again I find it unlikely this was meant to be taken literally but it does relate to our conversation.

I have noticed an increase trend in things like this especially with science, technology and mostly since the web has taken place in the last decade.

I would say in Judaism this has little to do with the web. We tend to be fairly well educated so this type of information falls like manna from heaven.

I dont find myself above the bible that way, like it is just fables and ignorant people of a by gone age.

It's not about holding myself above the bible. It's about recognizing the bible's relation to Ancient Near Eastern religion, other world religion, Ancient Near Eastern Cosmology and not elevating the bible above any other text in how scrupulous we are in our examinations. Any religious life requires discipline and humbling oneself, but for me this is entirely choice, and as such it is one I am free to examine and fit to the modern world, just as Judaism has always changed including within the Torah itself.

I consider the Torah sacred, but imho it is only sacred because I consider it sacred. However, if there is a divine plan then it is sacred because God deems it so, and so is every other text that has ever been held as sacred.

Were you raised in it this way?

I am a liberal Jew. I was raised in a Conservative shul although my parents identify more with the Reform movement. I disagree with the Reform movement because it seems they make religiosity taboo and take an entirely Western approach to religion. I am more at home in the Conservative movement, the Reconstructionist movement, or among Jewish Renwal. The denominations in Judaism aren't sects but rather movements within Judaism. I was raised in a spiritual home although not particularly observant. My parents did their best to teach me about tzedakah(almost means charity but from justice instead of caritas) and other Jewish values and teach me about the Jewish holidays although they did not observe Shabbat. There was no real emphasis on religion though so my taking to it was a bit of my own thing.

Do you feel God and spirit is also subject to law of physics?

I believe God exists outside of time and space and is therefore not subject to the laws of physics. But I do not believe God ever interferes with the laws of physics. If you can say, "This is God!" then that is not my God.

In the burning bush there was an angel. I am seeing angels as the same thing as God as far as spirit. Beings, messengers, but made specifically as spirits.

There is one way to understand angels that would say there really are no angels, and it really is God, but we try to understand all of these different aspects of God's majesty and power by labelling them and describing them away. But in Judaism angels do not have free will. I would say for me that God is not of the same as angels because God has no substance, while angels could possibly be described as being of the spiritual world. But I am more leaning towards the view that angels are one way to understand the expressions of God's energies in the world and do not exist at all.

I see Ezekial as a time in history with parts of it as a repeat of history through prophecy for a later time. That could by why it is so extreme.

I think he was into some heavy mystical practices. There was a school of mysticism that existed, merkava(chariot) mysticism, based around Ezekiel's vision. It is possible this developed later. It is also possible Ezekiel was merely one of a number of merkava mystics that predated him.

Yes. I see these things too. But there is more to Him. I know Him as a PERSON. Not just nature or storms.
Not just heavens, universal, traditions and a THING.

Judaism doesn't say God is any of the stuff you have mentioned above. Just keep peeling away the layers. Rambam used a negative theology to describe God. God is described as just, but this really means God is not unjust. God is described as merciful, but this really means God is not merciless. So you can see that words don't do God justice. Indeed our thoughts don't do God justice. To say God is a person or a thing is limiting. We don't do that. We use anthropomorphisms because we are human and we talk about what we know. These are Rambam's 13 principles of faith:

Belief in the existence of the Creator, be He Blessed, who is perfect in every manner of existence and is the Primary Cause of all that exists. [G-d's Existence]


·         The belief in G-d's absolute and unparalleled unity. [G-d is a complete and total unity]


·         The belief in G-d's noncorporeality, nor that He will be affected by any physical occurrences, such as movement, or rest, or dwelling.  [G-d is not physical]


·         The belief in G-d's eternity. [G-d is eternal and the First Source]


·         The imperative to worship Him exclusively and no foreign false gods. [Prayers should be directed to G-d]


·         The belief that G-d communicates with man through prophecy. [G-d communicates with man]


·         The belief that the prophecy of Moses our teacher has priority. [Moses' prophecy is unique]


·         The belief in the divine origin of the Torah. [The entire Torah is G-d-given]


·         The belief in the immutability of the Torah. [The Torah is unchangeable]


·         The belief in divine omniscience and providence. [G-d knows man's thoughts and deeds]


·         The belief in divine reward and retribution. [Reward and punishment]


·         The belief in the arrival of the Messiah and the messianic era. [The Messiah will come]


·        The belief in the resurrection of the dead. [The dead will live again]

http://jdstone.org/cr/files/therambams13principlesoffaithforallmankind.html

I disagree with Rambam on a number of points but traditionally that would be a decent representation, although there is a lot of leeway.

Give me a little time Dauer. I am going to find some more on the subject and should have some more for the weekend. Then you can show me what some of the Jewish people have said about it along with your beliefs.

Cool cool. I think I jumped the gun a little but oh well.

Dauer

 

[Bandit]

Maybe Moses had made a deal with some friends of Jethro to go wait on top of har sinai with some dry ice and shofarot and some pyrotechnics until the Israelites arrived, and then all of a sudden they started making the noise and the smoke and a hootin and a hollerin and a yippin and a yappin...

Now that I'm thinking about it, isn't God's voice likened to the clap of thunder and the sound of the shofar? Again I find it unlikely this was meant to be taken literally but it does relate to our conversation.

Yes. His voice came in many ways.

I was thinking Moses hired a convoy of truckers to redline diesel engines for about 6 weeks nonstopped all over the mountain, then when the signal was given they all layed on the air horns to make them think it was strange voice... for a mystical mythical show for the tribes, so they could just have something to talk about for the next 40 years.
AND here we are today still talking about it
Then when no one was looking Moses would keep the fog machine full and working on auto, all the time so a cloud would appear to be coming out of the Holy of Holies.
I think what happened there was very literal.

forget about religion for a minute and all the if ands and buts and what everyone else says...

Who do you say God is Dauer? Is He a who, or what is He/IT to you?
What do you think God wants from you?
Where do you think God would like to be?

and What would you like to have from God?

I got some more smoke and cloud lined up for us. About 10 passages.

 

[bananabrain]

i must say i'm finding this discussion a little weird. maybe i don't understand it. if i may recap:

bandit - you appear to be saying that you want to know about the smoke on mt sinai and other physical manifestations of the Divine so you can validate your experiences of 'seeing spirits'?

dauer - i have no idea what you're on about! *grins*

my twopenn'orth: according to a normative jewish PoV, you may well have had some kind of mystical experience, but it is not to be compared to what happened at mt sinai, because that was the very pinnacle of human spiritual experience by the greatest prophet in human history. in other words, not all 'cloud' is equal. it is extremely unlikely, jewishly speaking, that you have some kind of "ruakh haqodesh", so while your experience may be a meaningful one, it doesn't make you a prophet. furthermore, in ezekiel's vision (1:4) the "storm wind", the "great cloud" and the "bright light" are all differing expressions of mystical significance, referring to the different qelippot or husks of evil through which the prophet must pass. these are, incidentally, related to the "terror" and "great darkness" referred to in genesis 15:12 at the "covenant between the parts".

at no point have i come across anyone who wonders about what colour the smoke was, or what colour the flames of the burning bush were!

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[dauer]

Bandit,

Who do you say God is Dauer?

I don't. I feel that to claim my own ideas about God are God would be to limit God and create an idol. But I do believe that in order to relate to God we must speak using some sort of model, even if that model may be very flawed. I bounce back and forth between monotheism and panentheism. I consider God to be infinite and One, beyond words. If God is a personal God, I don't believe it is necessary for Him to interfere with the laws of physics in order to establish a personal relationship with each one of us. I think of it like stacking dominos so they all fall into place.

Is He a who, or what is He/IT to you?

None of the above. God's nature transcends language. I use He or She to address God because I am human and it comes naturally this way.

What do you think God wants from you?

God may not want anything from me. If God does want something, it is probably for me to do what is good. But I believe that even a murderer is doing what God wants at some level, if God wants something, as there must be evil in order for there to be good, and if there is a divine plan, then the murderer, along with all people, play a role. Free will may possibly be an illusion granted to us as a gift, but if it is such a gift I do not quite understand its purpose.

Where do you think God would like to be?

God is everywhere. Where else is there for God to be?

and What would you like to have from God?

I am blessed with existence. What more could I ask for? If anything I have much to give back to God for allowing me this opportunity to be.

Dauer


BB,

dauer - i have no idea what you're on about! *grins*

I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to but I probably have no clue either.

Dauer

 

[bananabrain]

damn.

you gettin' mystical on my ass.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Bandit]

Hey Bananna

bandit - you appear to be saying that you want to know about the smoke on mt sinai and other physical manifestations of the Divine so you can validate your experiences of 'seeing spirits'?

No. That is only a very tiny part of it. I don't need any validation at all for the things God has shown me. I personally want to know God better so I can love Him better by trying to understand Him. The only way I know how to do it and grow is by studying His written Word and do my best to live for Him. The pillar was the only guide they had for 40 years.

But so far I have no reason to not beleive that what they saw was literally the spirit or a portion of the spirit of God or possibly a manifestation of an angel. The smoke appears to have a fire within it (but not a literal fire) also which could be seen by night, but not during the day. I find angels more prominent in the bible with this fire they saw, than I find angels in smoke/clouds.
In the day it was only a cloud. In a pillar, which suggests that it was upright.
The cloud was there when they were to camp. It removed itself when they were to travel. That is how I see it, so far
I have no reason to believe that what they saw was not real or that a story teller made it up. Maybe something like this picture>

at no point have i come across anyone who wonders about what colour the smoke was, or what colour the flames of the burning bush were!

I did mention this earlier, but so far there is nothing mentioned in the passages about a specific color. So smoke and cloud is normally white, gray black...

 

[dauer]

Bandit, do you need to understand God in order to love Him? At what level do you believe that you are capable of understanding God? Do you believe there are finite answers to questions about the infinite?

Even Moses sees most clearly God's wake, God's back, what is left behind after God has passed. What is left behind after God has passed? It is the effect on the world by God that we can examine. But you seem to be equating what is found on earth with God. Correct me if I am incorrectly stating your position.

Dauer

 

[Bandit]

Ok guys, Here is some more If any verses do not match up, let me know and I will search them again.

When you have time let me know what you see and what you find by way of other Jewish interpretations with links the same way you have been doing. It is greatly appreciated.



Ex.40:32 When they went into the tent of the congregation, and when they came near unto the altar, they washed; as the LORD commanded Moses.

33 And he reared up the court round about the tabernacle and the altar, and set up the hanging of the court gate. So Moses finished the work.

34 Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

35 And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

36 And when the cloud was taken up from over the tabernacle, the children of Israel went onward in all their journeys:

37 But if the cloud were not taken up, then they journeyed not till the day that it was taken up. 38 For the cloud of the LORD was upon the tabernacle by day, and fire was on it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel, throughout all their journeys.

Here it is inside of the Holy of Holies---



Lev 16:2 And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.

3 Thus shall Aaron come into the holy place: with a young bullock for a sin offering, and a ram for a burnt offering.

4 He shall put on the holy linen coat, and he shall have the linen breeches upon his flesh, and shall be girded with a linen girdle, and with the linen mitre shall he be attired: these are holy garments; therefore shall he wash his flesh in water, and so put them on.

Back to the journey---



Num9:15 And on the day that the tabernacle was reared up the cloud covered the tabernacle, namely, the tent of the testimony: and at even there was upon the tabernacle as it were the appearance of fire, until the morning.

16 So it was alway: the cloud covered it by day, and the appearance of fire by night.

17 And when the cloud was taken up from the tabernacle, then after that the children of Israel journeyed: and in the place where the cloud abode, there the children of Israel pitched their tents.

18 At the commandment of the LORD the children of Israel journeyed, and at the commandment of the LORD they pitched: as long as the cloud abode upon the tabernacle they rested in their tents.

19 And when the cloud tarried long upon the tabernacle many days, then the children of Israel kept the charge of the LORD, and journeyed not.

20 And so it was, when the cloud was a few days upon the tabernacle; according to the commandment of the LORD they abode in their tents, and according to the commandment of the LORD they journeyed.



Here it shows they traveled at day and at night and there was no set time for them to travel or to camp----



21 And so it was, when the cloud abode from even unto the morning, and that the cloud was taken up in the morning, then they journeyed: whether it was by day or by night that the cloud was taken up, they journeyed. 22 Or whether it were two days, or a month, or a year, that the cloud tarried upon the tabernacle, remaining thereon, the children of Israel abode in their tents, and journeyed not: but when it was taken up, they journeyed.



10:11 And it came to pass on the twentieth day of the second month, in the second year, that the cloud was taken up from off the tabernacle of the testimony.

12 And the children of Israel took their journeys out of the wilderness of Sinai; and the cloud rested in the wilderness of Paran.

13 And they first took their journey according to the commandment of the LORD by the hand of Moses.
Here it shows the Lord speaking from the cloud, suddenly---.


Numb.12:4 And the LORD spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation. And they three came out.

5 And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.

6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
Here we still see it appearing inside the temple in Solomons time as they gave praise and thanks to the Lord----
2Chr.5:13 It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD;

Here we see Nehemiah speaking about it for the people, how God delivered them and and cared for them with manna and instruction----


Neh9:19 Yet thou in thy manifold mercies forsookest them not in the wilderness: the pillar of the cloud departed not from them by day, to lead them in the way; neither the pillar of fire by night, to shew them light, and the way wherein they should go.

20 Thou gavest also thy good spirit to instruct them, and withheldest not thy manna from their mouth, and gavest them water for their thirst.

21 Yea, forty years didst thou sustain them in the wilderness, so that they lacked nothing; their clothes waxed not old, and their feet swelled not.



Here is fire that literally burns with Joshua and Rahab. It is the same word used in the pillar. (?)

Josh6:23 And the young men that were spies went in, and brought out Rahab, and her father, and her mother, and her brethren, and all that she had; and they brought out all her kindred, and left them without the camp of Israel. 24 And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein: only the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD.

Here smoke is used figuratively, but it is the same word-----

Deut.29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.

Here smoke is used literally at the ambush of Ai where it was burnt with fire. This is a different smoke

Joshua 8:19 And the ambush arose quickly out of their place, and they ran as soon as he had stretched out his hand: and they entered into the city, and took it, and hasted and set the city on fire.
20 And when the men of Ai looked behind them, they saw, and, behold, the smoke of the city ascended up to heaven, and they had no power to flee this way or that way: and the people that fled to the wilderness turned back upon the pursuers.
21 And when Joshua and all Israel saw that the ambush had taken the city, and that the smoke of the city ascended, then they turned again, and slew the men of Ai.






I have just a few more passages from Kings and Ezekial after we look at these. Plus a closer look at cloud as in precipitation. I dont see a need to look at every time the word is used, at least not right now.



Then after that we can look closer at the burning bush/bramble which did not actually burn and where the goat was found for Abrahams offering.



Thanks again for looking into these for me .

 

[Bandit]

Bandit, do you need to understand God in order to love Him? At what level do you believe that you are capable of understanding God? Do you believe there are finite answers to questions about the infinite?

Even Moses sees most clearly God's wake, God's back, what is left behind after God has passed. What is left behind after God has passed? It is the effect on the world by God that we can examine. But you seem to be equating what is found on earth with God. Correct me if I am incorrectly stating your position.

Dauer

Because that is how much I love Him. I want to know Him and I desire to know Him in spirit and in Truth. The word is very clear to me that we can seek God and He will show His ways to us. I also see that He wants to abide in a place. That place is not space or infinite time but in the hearts, spirit and mind of men who love Him and seek Him.

Do you believe there are finite answers to questions about the infinite?

No that is not how I see it. I see the answers are infinite and unmeasurable to Gods wisdom and that is why I love Him and seek Him in all His ways. Ways that I may never fully understand, but I can try. Because He has given me His spirit and I believe that is what He wants us to do.

But you seem to be equating what is found on earth with God. Correct me if I am incorrectly stating your position.

I think some things on earth can be equated, or compared with God to a degree. But God is a spirit and that is how we must seek Him. In spirit, not a distant thing.
Man was made in Gods image, so there we have something else that can be looked at as to what God is about.
I see the whole journey of man from Adam to us as Gods pride and joy. God considers Man the highest being/thing He ever made. Higher than Angels.

I did read your answers Dauer about God. And thanks for answering. We do see God quite a bit differently on some things. But maybe there is more common ground over time that we will share.

I see the bible different than most today. I find it a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. Not my sidewalk or driveway, but for spiritual eyes. I see the bibe as food for my hungry soul and water that quinches my thirsty spirit.
Not as in wheat bread or Evian water.

The OT was a physical walk with God. The NT brought a better covenant and lets us walk in the spirit. The way God worked in the OT is a little different today. I see that God literally wants to live in us, not just WITH or sometimes ABOUT, but all the time IN us.
The battles were physical battles in the OT. The battles I see today are wars in the mind and in spirit within individuals.
So I study the OT ways of God then I can compare the physical things from that time to the spiritual things of now. And I believe that is why we have the bible today as they did not have it then.

Bandit, do you need to understand God in order to love Him?

I can never fully understand all of God. He is TOO BIG and vast. I will only ever know very little about Him compared to his mass wisdom. But everything I learn is joy that I cannot explain.

How can you truly Love someone with all your heart if you do not understand any of there ways? How can you fully please someone unless you know what they like and what makes them happy?