Smoke on Mount Sinai

[dauer]

I also see that He wants to abide in a place. That place is not space or infinite time but in the hearts, spirit and mind of men who love Him and seek Him.

Are you saying that I understand God as dwelling in space or infinite time or is that just how you thought I was implying you understood God?

No that is not how I see it. I see the answers are infinite and unmeasurable to Gods wisdom and that is why I love Him and seek Him in all His ways. Ways that I may never fully understand, but I can try. Because He has given me His spirit and I believe that is what He wants us to do.

So what are God's ways based on Tanach? Are the ways by which He lives, the ways by which He acts upon the world, the ways by which He wishes us to act?

Man was made in Gods image, so there we have something else that can be looked at as to what God is about.

In Judaism tzelem is not understood as a reference to the physical, although I do not know how you understand it.

I see the whole journey of man from Adam to us as Gods pride and joy. God considers Man the highest being/thing He ever made. Higher than Angels.

Are we higher than angels, or are we capable of becoming higher than angels? Of course in Judaism angels are stationary because they have no free will, while man is capable of climbing higher through free will.

I did read your answers Dauer about God. And thanks for answering. We do see God quite a bit differently on some things. But maybe there is more common ground over time that we will share.

I am sure there is some overlap that gets lost in translation.

I see the bible different than most today. I find it a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. Not my sidewalk or driveway, but for spiritual eyes. I see the bibe as food for my hungry soul and water that quinches my thirsty spirit.
Not as in wheat bread or Evian water.

So what do you do with this food and water? Why?

The OT was a physical walk with God. The NT brought a better covenant and lets us walk in the spirit.

Would you care to present evidence to back that up or are you just going to make uninformed assumptions?

The way God worked in the OT is a little different today. I see that God literally wants to live in us, not just WITH or sometimes ABOUT, but all the time IN us.

This isn't something new. The shekhinah, God's indwelling presence, is an old idea.

The battles were physical battles in the OT. The battles I see today are wars in the mind and in spirit within individuals.

Are you entirely sure of that? Or are you generalizing again?

So I study the OT ways of God then I can compare the physical things from that time to the spiritual things of now. And I believe that is why we have the bible today as they did not have it then.

How do we have the bible today in a way they did not have it then?

I can never fully understand all of God. He is TOO BIG and vast.

Are you implying spatiality?

I will only ever know very little about Him compared to his mass wisdom. But everything I learn is joy that I cannot explain.

Some things need not go beyond experience.

How can you truly Love someone with all your heart if you do not understand any of there ways?

What are God's ways, that we should walk in them?

How can you fully please someone unless you know what they like and what makes them happy?

It is one thing to know what someone desires. It is another thing to know their true nature. From my position on God, I would not assume to know what God desires, except perhaps an increase in oneness among the many creatures of the universe. So this means getting along, not all becoming alike. Helping one another. Anything else is for my benefit. Helping other people is for my benefit too, but not only.



In response to your other post, I would suggest you just go look through the same website I linked you to earlier and then come back wiith questions.


Dauer

 

[dauer]

Bump.

 

[Bandit]

It is one thing to know what someone desires. It is another thing to know their true nature. From my position on God, I would not assume to know what God desires, except perhaps an increase in oneness among the many creatures of the universe. So this means getting along, not all becoming alike. Helping one another. Anything else is for my benefit. Helping other people is for my benefit too, but not only.

I cannot answer all your questions for you. You will have to seek them out on your own in things pertaining to the relationship between God and man (between God and yourself) and the way it was and the way it is now.
Some things are the same and some things have indeed changed. No one walked around with a bible under there arm in the OT or the NT. There was no such thing for everyone to have it to study and read whenever they wanted. It was kept in the temple then put away right after it was read to the public.

So this is all I have...and may God direct your paths Dauer, in the paths He wants for you to take.

Psalm 27:1 The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

Psalm 34:4 I sought the LORD, and he heard me, and delivered me from all my fears.

Psalm 37:4 Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.

Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Isaiah 26:3 You will keep in perfect peace him whose mind is steadfast, because he trusts in you.

Isaiah 51:12 I, even I, am he that comforteth you: who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die, and of the son of man which shall be made as grass;

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Jeremiah 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

In response to your other post, I would suggest you just go look through the same website I linked you to earlier and then come back wiith questions.

I think all my questions have been answered. Thanks for your help and efforts and responses, and also for hooking me up with the website

 

[dauer]

I cannot answer all your questions for you. You will have to seek them out on your own in things pertaining to the relationship between God and man (between God and yourself) and the way it was and the way it is now.

I was not asking for your help. I was trying to understand your position.

Some things are the same and some things have indeed changed. No one walked around with a bible under there arm in the OT or the NT. There was no such thing for everyone to have it to study and read whenever they wanted. It was kept in the temple then put away right after it was read to the public.

Not during the late second temple period. By that time, at least, there were people studying the text.

Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

It is very possible that this proverb was written by the kings in order to subdue the masses. It also reflects an earlier time when myth was the real science, and real science was a myth.

I think all my questions have been answered. Thanks for your help and efforts and responses, and also for hooking me up with the website

No problem.

Dauer

 

[Bandit]

I was not asking for your help. I was trying to understand your position.

ok. try again. I guess I do not understand what position. All my positions on spiritual matters and mostly daily living are from the 66 books and I see no myth in it as some suggest.

so i will always be coming from that.
so ask again.

man, I am coming down with a nasty fever, cough and soar throat from something, so i may not come on for a couple of days just to get some rest. so be patient.

 

[dauer]

ok. try again. I guess I do not understand what position. All my positions on spiritual matters and mostly daily living are from the 66 books and I see no myth in it as some suggest.

But as you are aware, there are many positions that people come to, all claiming to refer to the same books you do. Therefore, I ask for your specific position and have posed specific questions. In the interest of this dialogue it may be better not to delve into your views on the nature of the Tanach as I find them mildly offensive and will continue to challenge you on them when you bring them up. If you wish to start another thread about what it is that Jews find in the mitzvot, and where they gain their support for this position, that is fine too. But it really doesn't fit with the rest of the thread. If you scroll up, you can see my specific questions.

man, I am coming down with a nasty fever, cough and soar throat from something, so i may not come on for a couple of days just to get some rest. so be patient.

No! I will not be patient! This thread should be more important to you than life itself! than...life...itself.

I am also afflicted with an illness of sorts, though of a different nature. I hope you have a speedy recovery.

Dauer

 

[bananabrain]

I don't need any validation at all for the things G!D has shown me.

i don't know about you, but i am far from comfortable relying on my own judgement alone for correct interpretation of sense-data.

But so far I have no reason to not believe that what they saw was literally the spirit or a portion of the spirit of G!D or possibly a manifestation of an angel.

in fact, the Text itself states that it was G!D acting directly and not through an intermediary that brought the israelites out of egypt, as it says in exodus 12:12. the passover haggadah expands on this midrashically, stating: "I [G!D] will Pass through the land of Egypt on that night, I and not an angel; I will Smite all the first born in the land of Egypt, I and not a seraph; and against all the gods of Egypt I will Execute judgement, I, and not a messenger."

however, the pillar of cloud and the pillar of fire were not literally the "spirit of G!D" ("for no-one may see Me and live") but manifestations of G!D's *will* through the natural world. again, i don't really see how this helps you with a practical observance of the will of G!D.

How can you truly Love someone with all your heart if you do not understand any of their ways? How can you fully please someone unless you know what they like and what makes them happy?

we ourselves fulfil the will of G!D through our observance of G!D's commandments as stated in the Text itself - that's how we know we're doing what we're supposed to do, because G!D told us explicitly what that was. it's not rocket science - we know exactly what G!D wants us to do, albeit some of it is a bit peculiar, but hey, if it makes G!D happy, who are we to complain?

exodus 40:34 appears to be talking about two different things. one is an 'ashan or cloud, the other is the "glory of G!D", kavod haShem which is not a vaporous manifestation but a spiritual one. so perhaps it's a sort of "cloud of light" - i don't really know. it seems to me, though, that the cloud is actually the cloud from the burning of the qetoret (incense) a few verses previously; the incense is burned every day and the glory of G!D is able to manifest because of the resulting cloud that obscures it, whilst at the same time making it last longer at some times.

i'd therefore assume that the cloud that appeared in the [first] Temple was also a result of the burning of the qetoret and that the Shechinah manifested within this cloud. in the second Temple, of course, the qetoret was still burned, but the Shechinah no longer manifested.

No one walked around with a bible under their arm in the OT or the NT. There was no such thing for everyone to have it to study and read whenever they wanted. It was kept in the temple then put away right after it was read to the public.

on the contrary, moses wrote the original Torah down over time - this was then kept in the Ark with the stone tablets. similarly, there are references in joshua to writing things down in books, as well as there being a law for the kind to write a Torah scroll and carry it with him everywhere. a lot of them didn't do that, obviously, but when it was being done, it was being done. i don't think you know what you're talking about.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Bandit]

i don't know about you, but i am far from comfortable relying on my own judgement alone for correct interpretation of sense-data.


in fact, the Text itself states that it was G!D acting directly and not through an intermediary that brought the israelites out of egypt, as it says in exodus 12:12. the passover haggadah expands on this midrashically, stating: "I [G!D] will Pass through the land of Egypt on that night, I and not an angel; I will Smite all the first born in the land of Egypt, I and not a seraph; and against all the gods of Egypt I will Execute judgement, I, and not a messenger."

however, the pillar of cloud and the pillar of fire were not literally the "spirit of G!D" ("for no-one may see Me and live") but manifestations of G!D's *will* through the natural world. again, i don't really see how this helps you with a practical observance of the will of G!D.


we ourselves fulfil the will of G!D through our observance of G!D's commandments as stated in the Text itself - that's how we know we're doing what we're supposed to do, because G!D told us explicitly what that was. it's not rocket science - we know exactly what G!D wants us to do, albeit some of it is a bit peculiar, but hey, if it makes G!D happy, who are we to complain?

exodus 40:34 appears to be talking about two different things. one is an 'ashan or cloud, the other is the "glory of G!D", kavod haShem which is not a vaporous manifestation but a spiritual one. so perhaps it's a sort of "cloud of light" - i don't really know. it seems to me, though, that the cloud is actually the cloud from the burning of the qetoret (incense) a few verses previously; the incense is burned every day and the glory of G!D is able to manifest because of the resulting cloud that obscures it, whilst at the same time making it last longer at some times.

i'd therefore assume that the cloud that appeared in the [first] Temple was also a result of the burning of the qetoret and that the Shechinah manifested within this cloud. in the second Temple, of course, the qetoret was still burned, but the Shechinah no longer manifested.


on the contrary, moses wrote the original Torah down over time - this was then kept in the Ark with the stone tablets. similarly, there are references in joshua to writing things down in books, as well as there being a law for the kind to write a Torah scroll and carry it with him everywhere. a lot of them didn't do that, obviously, but when it was being done, it was being done. i don't think you know what you're talking about.

b'shalom

bananabrain

This is a very big assumption(s) Banana. Who are you to judge others on there practical observance in the will of God or what an individual is searching for in the scriptures.

On the contrary I forgot the Joshua Xerox machine that printed millions of copies in over 100 languages and the AronUPS trucks that distributed them across the planet.


If the pillar was God or an angel or both it is not an issue for me.
Exodus 14:19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:

You have not added anything that I have not already considered. Thank you for you attention and time.

 

[Bandit]

I was trying to understand your position.

I don't think it is possible for me to explain my position to you on God or the bible or if I did, I don't think you would understand what I am trying to say about it. That does not mean you would not try to see my position through reasoning. Respectfully rather, I am not going to try and explain it.

I have decided not to answer the questions except for the one below, for the reason you have stated that something I have said you find offensive.

Are you implying spatiality?

I am implying- ALL. Everything. The whole of the matter.

There is nothing else for me to add to the thread at this time.
Thanks again Dauer for your support in the thread.
I hope you get to feeling better soon also.

 

[dauer]

Bandit, your response is unclear to me. What is the matter that you are implying, and how are you implying it wholly? It would be much easier if, rather than implying, you clearly stated what you mean about the nature of God without using statements that could be misunderstood.

Do you believe God changes? What is the relationship between God and space? How much can you speak of God without betraying God to a false definition (and in this I am asking for an explanation of God.)? I think my questions have been fairly straightforward.

Dauer

 

[bananabrain]

first of all - what the *hell* is the point of quoting my ENTIRE post? why? what point does that make? what does that do other than waste our time scrolling??

This is a very big assumption(s) Banana. Who are you to judge others on their practical observance in the will of G!D or what an individual is searching for in the scriptures?

who am i? you've posted a question in the jewish forum and are engaging in discussion with two jews about how we interpret our own sacred text. you asked how we know what G!D wants - the answer is G!D TOLD US ALREADY - OBSERVE THE COMMANDMENTS! THAT'S WHAT THE TORAH IS - IT TELLS US WHAT COMMANDMENTS WE ARE TO FOLLOW. i can't make this any more simple for you - there are 613 commandments, made up of 248 positives and 365 negatives. there is a list at http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm if you want to see where these are detailed.

i am not telling you what to search for in the "scriptures" because that is up to you. you're not jewish, so you can approach the Text differently - you have only 7 commandments to observe and an extra "testament" on top of that. all i am doing is telling you how jews practically observe the will of G!D, based upon explicit instructions given in the Torah. i'm not "judging" your practical observance, because i have no idea how you live your life. nor is it my job to check up on you. that is between you and G!D. what i will do, however, is tell you that the Torah (and i'm only talking about the Torah, not the "bible" or "scriptures" which is very vague) has a particular function and audience and that audience is us. you can make all the woolly-arse new age points you like about individual spiritual paths and how you can see angels in smoke, but it seems to bear very little relationship to the discipline of the study of Torah as it has been taught to me.

On the contrary I forgot the Joshua Xerox machine that printed millions of copies in over 100 languages and the AronUPS trucks that distributed them across the planet.

is that supposed to be sarcasm? very impressive putdown there. photocopying and logistics aside, i would suggest as a first step that if you can't even read the Text in its original language, you have little hope of understanding what it's talking about. would you understand a medical textbook without having been to medical school? no? then how do you expect to understand a jewish text without approaching it with an appreciation of the jewish context?

If the pillar was G!D or an angel or both it is not an issue for me.

well, i am no closer to understanding what the buggery-bollocks you're banging on about, what point you're trying to make, or what position you are attempting to expound. i'm happy to answer specific questions, but if i don't think the question makes sense, i kind of lose focus after too much mind-treacle.

b'shalom

bananabrain