Books

[Thinking required]

I am about 3/4 the way through reading the Quran for the second time and don't really understand the need for the Quran, another book. Also the Quran states that a book is given to each nation in it's own language. Where are all these books? My question for this dialogue; does the Quran contain anything that is not already written in the Jewish Scriptures? i.e. the Proverbs contain some of the greatest wisdom and how to live pleasing to God. The Quran uses the word "clear" over 200 times when associated with "communication". Are the Jewish Scriptures unclear? Do they not contain everything the Quran contains and more?

 

[wil]

IMO

The Jewish Scripture are.complete and clear for Jews

The Christian bible is enough for Christians.

The Quran is complete and clear enough for Muslims.

Is it a surprise to anyone that they believe the book that they follow is true and that others follow is not?

I don't think so.

Is it a surprise to anyone that you are not a Jew or that you find fault in the Quran?

I think not.

I do find it interesting how you think you are not attempting to convince anyone that you believe is the truth...

I am about 3/4 the way through reading the Quran for the second time and don't really understand the need for the Quran, another book.

For some it only takes one reading to wish to learn more and follow Allah. I think it is apparent you don't understand and should read it a few more times....

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I have found that when we read the worlds religious scriptures, with an eye set in the Oneness of God, that the complimentary aspects shine out as clear as the noon day sun. What does differ is the laws given for each age.

God has never left humanity alone and has sent us Guidance via the Messengers. The Quran has named quite a few of those.

The Quran correctly admonished the Christains also, to remove the doctrine of the Trinity, a doctrine that has blinded many Christians to the truth found in all the Words of all the Messengers God has given to humanity.

Likewise the term "Seal of the Prophets" has done the same thing for Muslims. The doctrine of the finality of God given Messengers, has likewise blinded many millions of people to embrace further God given guidance.

The greatest gift in this age is the explanation as to how all the diversity of religion can be seen in the Oneness of God. That explanation is another Tablet (Book) named the Kitab-i-iqan (The Book of Certitude)

I offer the link.

The Kitáb-i-Íqán | Bahá’í Reference Library

A treatise revealed by Bahá’u’lláh in Baghdad in 1861/62 in response to questions posed by one of the maternal uncles of the Báb, translated by Shoghi Effendi and first published in English in 1931.

www.bahai.org

In this book Baha'u'llah explains the Revelations, the Oneness of the Messengers, how and why they have unfolded and why humanity has rejected them.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

The Quran correctly admonished the Christians also, to remove the doctrine of the Trinity, a doctrine that has blinded many Christians to the truth found in all the Words of all the Messengers God has given to humanity.

And Christians do not feel themselves subject to what the Quran says they should believe

Here, in bold, are the complete words spoken by Isa in the Quran. He is not much like the Jesus of the New Testament, imo:

And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah . And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah . And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers. (3:49)


(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me. (3:50)

When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: “Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?” (3:52)

“…and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! Serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.”
(5:72)


[And remember] when the disciples said, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, can your Lord send down to us a table [spread with food] from the heaven? [Jesus] said," Fear Allah , if you should be believers."

They said, "We wish to eat from it and let our hearts be reassured and know that you have been truthful to us and be among its witnesses."

Said Jesus, the son of Mary, "O Allah , our Lord, send down to us a table [spread with food] from the heaven to be for us a festival for the first of us and the last of us and a sign from You. And provide for us, and You are the best of providers."

Allah said, "Indeed, I will sent it down to you, but whoever disbelieves afterwards from among you - then indeed will I punish him with a punishment by which I have not punished anyone among the worlds."

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.

If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise. (5:112-120)


He said, I am God's servant; He has given me the Book, and made me a prophet. He has made me blessed wherever I am, and has enjoined on me the Worship and Alms, so long as I live; and to be dutiful to my mother; and has not made me oppressive, impious. Peace is on me the day I was born, the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised alive. (19:29)

When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: “Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me.” (43:63)

https://legacy.quran.com/

That's it, there is no more. There is very little to learn about Jesus from reading the Quran alone, and most Muslims will never read the New Testament ... so the point is, Christians do not believe Muslims have any right to instruct them about what to think and to believe

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

And Christians do not feel themselves subject to what the Quran says they should believe

Yes that is a choice Christians will have.

I would offer what Jesus said is known by all the Messengers better than any man can ever know. It is all of them, one and all, that have offered those Words from God.

 

[RJM]

Yes that is a choice Christians will have.

I would offer what Jesus said is known by all the Messengers better than any man can ever know. It is all of them, one and all, that have offered those Words from God.

The issue here is the Quran? Can a person who knows only the Quran Isa, know what Christians should believe about Jesus?

 

[RJM]

I quite accept that Muslims believe the Quran to be the direct, inerrant word of God. The problem comes when Muslims (or Baha'i) start trying to use the New Testament to support what they think Christians should believe.

There's just no 'logical' way to make the New Testament support the Quran when it comes to Jesus -- except by cherry-picking and rejecting as 'corrupted' whatever parts of the NT do not support the Muslim view, imo

EDIT: I mean, the 'revealed' Muslim and Baha'i interpretations about Jesus are accepted as the word of god, but the Christian NT accounts are rejected as corrupted. It's not difficult to understand the problem?

 

[Thinking required]

For some it only takes one reading to wish to learn more and follow Allah

If you think that good deeds and works are what gets one to Allah, then you are correct.

 

[Thinking required]

EDIT: I mean, the 'revealed' Muslim and Baha'i interpretations about Jesus are accepted as the word of god, but the Christian NT accounts are rejected as corrupted. It's not difficult to understand the problem?

It’s truly remarkable that people use something that they don’t believe to justify what they believe.

 

[Thinking required]

I would offer what Jesus said is known by all the Messengers better than any man can ever know. It is all of them, one and all, that have offered those Words from God.

You can certainly offer whatever you like, but you are so incorrect. It’s right in front of you. Read the Gospels and then the Quran, You will not find the message of Jesus in the Quran. Jesus never said; “be good, pray, pay the poor tax” to get to heaven (sorry, gardens with rivers flowing under it). The Quran never says, “if you have seen me you have seen the Father”. The Quran never says: “I am the way, the life, and the truth, no one comes to the Father except through me”. You read, but do you just let the words speak and stop trying to see some mystical magic in them.

 

[Thinking required]

The Quran correctly admonished the Christains also, to remove the doctrine of the Trinity,

I find it so interesting how many can not understand God. You simply will not let God be God. You have to create a man made God. You need to take a lesson from the book of Job, chapters 38 on. God revealed Himself in different ways throughout Scripture. Even human form. He walked in the Garden with Adam, what form? He showed up at Abraham's door, what form? He showed up to Moses, what form? God is not a "father" and yet the Bible calls Him Father. God has no body, He is Spirit, Please explain what a Spirit is and how it exists. Like I have said, mankind has not understanding of this Creator who simply spoke and it all appeared. But somehow you want tell us that He can't possible do something like show up in the form of Jesus, be the Holy Spirit, be called the Father and still be in a Spirit form that can not be seen by mankind, just ask Moses about that one. Just let God be God, we all live in our ignorance.

 

[Thinking required]

I do find it interesting how you think you are not attempting to convince anyone that you believe is the truth...

I'am not so sure I have the truth, why do you think I keep seeking answers. What foundation, source to you you use. We all get our information from somewhere, even you. Some from you books and some from your imagination. Like all of use. Humans are all alike, made from the same mold. If you know one, then you should know them all. We are all so easily deceived.

 

[wil]

I'am not so sure I have the truth

Yippee!

Seems like progress to me.

My main source of influence is the bible...the new Testament in particular...I was seeking till I found Unity interpretation. But none of it completely resonates with me. I take pieces from everywhere....and make a big fluffy bed of it all with a nice big comforter to allow me to exist in this world...running around seeing sights enjoying people and knowing I got a ice warm place to sleep.

But books...sure we need more of them!

don't really understand the need for ... another book

I'am not so sure I have the truth, why do you think I keep seeking answers

Exactly

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

You can certainly offer whatever you like, but you are so incorrect. It’s right in front of you. Read the Gospels and then the Quran, You will not find the message of Jesus in the Quran. Jesus never said; “be good, pray, pay the poor tax” to get to heaven (sorry, gardens with rivers flowing under it). The Quran never says, “if you have seen me you have seen the Father”. The Quran never says: “I am the way, the life, and the truth, no one comes to the Father except through me”. You read, but do you just let the words speak and stop trying to see some mystical magic in them.

That is akin to asking me to stop believing in One God and Jesus the Christ.

I would never ask that of anyone.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I find it so interesting how many can not understand God. You simply will not let God be God. You have to create a man made God. You need to take a lesson from the book of Job, chapters 38 on. God revealed Himself in different ways throughout Scripture. Even human form. He walked in the Garden with Adam, what form? He showed up at Abraham's door, what form? He showed up to Moses, what form? God is not a "father" and yet the Bible calls Him Father. God has no body, He is Spirit, Please explain what a Spirit is and how it exists. Like I have said, mankind has not understanding of this Creator who simply spoke and it all appeared. But somehow you want tell us that He can't possible do something like show up in the form of Jesus, be the Holy Spirit, be called the Father and still be in a Spirit form that can not be seen by mankind, just ask Moses about that one. Just let God be God, we all live in our ignorance.

I have not offered any of that in bold.

I also note you have not read what I have posted, or a reply such as this would not have been given.

Time for me to bow out, I was just giving the courtesy of reply, which after this post I see is no longer required.

Yet, you have other responses! Woe is me, my self is dominate.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

The issue here is the Quran? Can a person who knows only the Quran Isa, know what Christians should believe about Jesus?

Yes I beleive that can be the case. Yet the complexity of nature and nurture do become a veil.

I see that is why Jesus said I have much more to say unto you, which needed the Spirit of Truth to impart to us, to guide us.

I like the Bible says Guide, not compel us. Muhammad said there is no compulsion in religion.

Regards Tony

 

[Thinking required]

Exactly

Glad that you finally understand

 

[Thinking required]

I have not offered any of that in bold.

When you stated "remove the Trinity" you have to be implying that. Sorry if you don't, but your writings seem to imply that Jesus and Muhammad are both just messengers. If you believe that then you don't understand what the Bible says.

 

[Thinking required]

Yes I beleive that can be the case. Yet the complexity of nature and nurture do become a veil.

I see that is why Jesus said I have much more to say unto you, which needed the Spirit of Truth to impart to us, to guide us.

I like the Bible says Guide, not compel us. Muhammad said there is no compulsion in religion.

You seem very confused if you think that the Bible and the Quran teach the same thing. To believe the Quran you have to throw out at least half of the NT and the teachings of Jesus. You are confused about the HOly Spirit, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both God.

 

[Thinking required]

I would never ask that of anyone.

I have never asked anyone to stop believing in One God.