Books

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

When you stated "remove the Trinity" you have to be implying that. Sorry if you don't, but your writings seem to imply that Jesus and Muhammad are both just messengers. If you believe that then you don't understand what the Bible says.

My understanding of the Bible is from the explanations found in the Bible and also the Quran by Muhammad and the Baha'i Writings by the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

I believe they know what the Bible says, I would never rely on my own understandings.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

You seem very confused if you think that the Bible and the Quran teach the same thing. To believe the Quran you have to throw out at least half of the NT and the teachings of Jesus. You are confused about the HOly Spirit, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both God.

I see we are not able to throw out any if the Words of God, that is blasphemy.

We are able to distinguish between what is from God and what is from our own selves, only to the extent we submit to God.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

Muhammad said there is no compulsion in religion.

Allah said it, you mean? Unfortunately the hadith often disagree when quoting Muhammad (pbuh) in his own right especially when it comes to murdering apostates? That's the perception, certainly in Islamic states, but I'm open to correction by Muslims

I see we are not able to throw out any if the Words of God, that is blasphemy.

It is blasphemy not to accept everything the Quran says as the word of God, even where it contradicts the word of Jesus you mean?

Oh, hang on -- we should reject as 'corrupted' those parts of the New Testament that do not agree with the Quran. That wouldn't be blasphemy?

EDIT: So it comes down to 'my' word of God vs 'your' word of God

(edited)

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

EDIT: So it comes down to 'my' word of God vs 'your' word of God

It comes down to the Word of God.

I do not have a Word of God, that I own or share in.

If you are offering that it boils down to our relative and limited understandings, then yes.

Regards Tony

 

[muhammad_isa]

Allah said it, you mean? Unfortunately the hadith often disagree when quoting Muhammad (pbuh) in his own right especially when it comes to murdering apostates? That's the perception, certainly in Islamic states, but I'm open to correction by Muslims..

One has to understand the context..
There is no compulsion, as in forcing somebody to become a Muslim..

However, if somebody becomes a Muslim, and then renounces, it might be a problem.
This is because the Islamic state employs individuals, and such a person could be a spy.
..much like a US official leaking information to "enemy nations".
i.e. treason

 

[Thinking required]

One has to understand the context..
There is no compulsion, as in forcing somebody to become a Muslim..

The context is, no compulsion to believe, but death if you don't or quit believing.

However, if somebody becomes a Muslim, and then renounces, it might be a problem.

You do realize that Islam grows through birth and not conversion (or becomes). Very few people desire to be a Muslim. I have talked to a lot of Muslims from Muslim countries and they have nothing to do with Islam, yet they have to call themselves Muslim are face the wrath of Islam.

 

[Thinking required]

The Quran correctly admonished the Christains also, to remove the doctrine of the Trinity, a doctrine that has blinded many Christians to the truth found in all the Words of all the Messengers God has given to humanity.

OK, now I am confused.

My understanding of the Bible is from the explanations found in the Bible and also the Quran by Muhammad and the Baha'i Writings by the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

You post something found in the Bible and must have read it.

I do not have a Word of God, that I own or share in.

So you don't own a Bible? But have read the Bible and Quran?

Are we communicatings right now???? How? I put words on this page and you read them, correct, and then you understand what I am saying, correct?
The Bible is a book with words, not mystical. It contains words, words that Jesus spoke when He was on this earth. The people who wrote down those words were with Jesus, at least some of them. Take the Book of John and 1 John.
Why do Christians believe in ONE GOD, revealed in 3 different ways? What you refer to the Trinity. Because the Bible clearly presents all three of these persons as God, the Same God, not a different God, not a "partner" to God.

John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (The Word is referring to Jesus here)
2 He was in the beginning with God. (existed with God)
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. (All of Creation was done by the Word)

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. (the Word becomes Jesus)

1 John 1:
1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life—
2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—

If you read these verse and still want to say the Jesus was not the Word that took on flesh, then you believe what you want to believe, not what Scripture (the Bible) says.

New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), 1 Jn 1:1–2.
New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Jn 1:1–5.

Phillipians 2:
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but aemptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Php 2:5–8.

 

[RJM]

So you don't own a Bible? But have read the Bible and Quran?

He didn't say that. He said that he doesn't 'own' the word of God.

However, if somebody becomes a Muslim, and then renounces, it might be a problem.
This is because the Islamic state employs individuals, and such a person could be a spy.

Really?

 

[Thinking required]

He didn't say that. He said that he doesn't 'own' the word of God.

Confusing! Why would anyone think that someone could own the Word of God? Saying that; I believe the Word of God should "own" us.

 

[RJM]

Confusing! Why would anyone think that someone could own the Word of God? Saying that; I believe the Word of God should "own" us.

Being 'owned' by (the word of) God is not the same as owning (the word of) God? I don't think he meant he did not own a Bible or a Quran?

 

[Thinking required]

I would offer what Jesus said is known by all the Messengers better than any man can ever know. It is all of them, one and all, that have offered those Words from God.

I am not sure what kind of special glasses that you are wearing when you read, but this statement is absurd. Muhammad and Jesus do not preach the same message at all. Unless you are just thinking legalism, which I know you are. Jesus does not preach a legal system. Jesus message is simple, you have to believe that He came to save mankind from their sin and to love God and love your neighbor. Jesus says: that in this, all the Law is fulfilled. In other words there is no need to give people a list of do’s and don’t’s. I wish that you would stop reading your version into the text of God’s Word and let it say what it says. Your “Magic carpet ride” is just that.

 

[wil]

So glad you don't demean others or their beliefs in your posts

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I am not sure what kind of special glasses that you are wearing when you read, but this statement is absurd. Muhammad and Jesus do not preach the same message at all. Unless you are just thinking legalism, which I know you are. Jesus does not preach a legal system. Jesus message is simple, you have to believe that He came to save mankind from their sin and to love God and love your neighbor. Jesus says: that in this, all the Law is fulfilled. In other words there is no need to give people a list of do’s and don’t’s. I wish that you would stop reading your version into the text of God’s Word and let it say what it says. Your “Magic carpet ride” is just that.

I see God's Messengers through the explanations given by Baha'u'llah.

As such I have been made aware that the Messengers have a twofold Station, they are One and undivided when they renew the eternal unchangeable teachings and they are individual in that they bring the new laws for the age they give the Message.

This link explains this

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, pages 50-56

Knowing this, check this link out, we are able to determine that the Quran and the Bible do reflect this Twofold station.

Bible vs Quran: Similarities And Differences

Bible, Quran, Christianity & Islam: Similarities And Differences: Oneness of God, Creation of Universe, Creation of Man, Divinity of Jesus, Women dressing And Polygamy.

www.thelastdialogue.org

Regards Tony

 

[Thinking required]

So glad you don't demean others or their beliefs in your posts

Have you ever realized that you are just as sarcastic as I am?

 

[abuyusufalshafii]

The Quran was revealed because there was still more to learn in addition to the Bible, some of the early companions of the prophet Muhammad, after learning the Quran and Hadith learned the Bible too.

They both aid the understanding of one another and like an old Arabic proverb said "wisdom is the lost property of the believer, wheresoever he finds it he is most entitled to it.

It's very ignorant to pit the Quran and Bible against each other as they were both revealed from the same source (Elohim, Allah, the Father etc.)

I remember a few years ago someone in France made pictures reviling the Prophet Muhammad purposely provoking Muslims to do something, one Muslim killed him and some of his friends were acting like the instigator was a martyr or hero and said that they would continue purposely provoking Muslims by continuing the instigation and Pope Francis, who I believe is a very good Pope (may God preserve him) merely said that you should not disrespect other peoples religions. Preaching that type of tolerance, common sense and reasonability earned him a lot of respect from me.

I am a Muslim but I learn a lot from ancient churches like the Catholic church, the Orthodox church and a couple others) and I love to study history, comparative religion, and the Bible and Quran work beautifully together and supplement each other beautifully. I couldn't imagine what I would be missing out on if I didn't study both.

 

[RJM]

the Bible and Quran work beautifully together and supplement each other beautifully. I couldn't imagine what I would be missing out on if I didn't study both.

Wow! Someone who has actually read and studied the books upon which they comment!

Although I do not agree that the Qur'an supplements or complements the New Testament, lol

Welcome to the forums

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I am not sure what kind of special glasses that you are wearing when you read, but this statement is absurd. Muhammad and Jesus do not preach the same message at all. Unless you are just thinking legalism, which I know you are. Jesus does not preach a legal system. Jesus message is simple, you have to believe that He came to save mankind from their sin and to love God and love your neighbor. Jesus says: that in this, all the Law is fulfilled. In other words there is no need to give people a list of do’s and don’t’s. I wish that you would stop reading your version into the text of God’s Word and let it say what it says. Your “Magic carpet ride” is just that.

The key I have found is to see our One God in the Oneness of the Messengers, all blend into One. It is like all the neurons of the Brain igniting together as one in a brilliant white light.

Use the White Matter, not the Grey Matter.

Regards Tony

 

[Thomas]

Hi, St.clementofrome ... interesting name for a Muslim!

Welcome aboard.

The Quran was revealed because there was still more to learn in addition to the Bible, some of the early companions of the prophet Muhammad, after learning the Quran and Hadith learned the Bible too.

In my view I would rather say there is no limit to what can be learned from the sacra doctrina of the world, and that a Divine Revelation is complete and entire with regard to its end in view, which is human salvation/deliverance, etc. No sacra doctrina is deficient, rather that fault lies with us.

What I have found fruitful is comparative studies of various religious texts, which sometimes just weight the balances a little, and at others 'reveal' something in one text which I later find is implicit if not explicit in another.

I have to say there are certain undeniable elements of contention between the Noble Quran and the New Testament, and that is understandable to me if one allows that the Prophet was informed on certain details from earthly sources – the doctrine of the Trinity; Christian devotion to the Virgin Mary seems to be aimed at certain heterodox beliefs current in Arabia at the time, and the views on what happened at the crucifixion are remarkably similar to certain teachings that were dismissed by Christian orthodoxy centuries earlier. The same with the infancy narratives of Jesus – these too repeat claims that were in circulation around the 2nd century and were dismissed as spurious.

Having said that, as a sometime follower of the Sophia Perennis, and the Traditionalist School (the latter having a significant Muslim presence, mostly Sufi). I was lucky enough to see Dr Martin Lings (Abū Bakr Sirāj ad-Dīn) speak a couple of times – so I would never decry the Divine source of Islam as such.

But what I do note is a careful 'stepping round' those contentious issues – and even among scholars I hold in high regard, a clear obfuscation when it comes to trying to explain the differences away.

I remember a few years ago someone in France made pictures reviling the Prophet Muhammad purposely provoking Muslims to do something ...

Ooh ... on an open forum I'd steer clear of that issue ...

Once again, welcome aboard!

 

[talib-al-kalim]

The issue here is the Quran? Can a person who knows only the Quran Isa, know what Christians should believe about Jesus?

Don't think so

 

[talib-al-kalim]

I am about 3/4 the way through reading the Quran for the second time

Congratulations. The nicest Surat according to my taste are in the last third.

and don't really understand the need for the Quran, another book.

You must see that the Quran, as other prophetic books, adresses the people in that precise location and time but it is not restrained to this. Many messages concern the polytheistic Arabs, some refer to a particular situation, so that it's not important to you.
Nevertheless, there are also passages that do concern you:

Right from the beginning of Christianity until now, it's unclear which commandments of the Mosaic Law should be observed by all people, not only the people of Israel. The Quran (together with Messages of Muhammad that has been preserved only in oral traditions at first) clarifies this, with a smaller selection.

The Quran makes clear that faith should not be vain but result in good deeds - as Jesus said it, using the parables with the tree/plant and the fruit - an important aspect that got disputed in Christianity with a (false, imo) interprétation of Paul.

It points out that God is much greater than any human, and thus not see Jesus as equal to God or assume that there could be intercourse between God and a human (where the first assumption is still quite wide-spread among modern Christians, whereas the latter seems to be absurd to almost all of them as well)

Also the Quran states that a book is given to each nation in it's own language.

Where does the Quran state this? Inaccurate translation?

Where are all these books?

...

My question for this dialogue; does the Quran contain anything that is not already written in the Jewish Scriptures?

Yes.

i.e. the Proverbs contain some of the greatest wisdom and how to live pleasing to God.

There are other Tenach books that say more to me, but anyway, there's a lot of wisdom in it. The Quran never states that you should discard discard them. As Jeremiah does not replace Isaiah, the Quran doesn't replace the prior prophecy and wisdom. That's my opinion; in the Islamic tradition, this has been seen differently.

The Quran uses the word "clear" over 200 times when associated with "communication". Are the Jewish Scriptures unclear?

It may reflect the fact that the Arabs had no understandable translation. But it's also "clear" in the sense that it points out and repeats some essentials out of the wide range of revelations and thoughts you find among the many different writings of the Bible.

Do they not contain everything the Quran contains and more?

It certainly contains more. It's a big collection. You can find most issues in the Quran somewhere in the Bible. As it is said, the Quran is mainly confirming what came before. Still, there's still a lot new