Facts or Opinions

Thinking required

Thinking required

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I started to think about how to dialogue about our beliefs. I would like to hear why a person believes what they believe. How did you come to your conclusion, what made you seek something other than what you use to believe (I know that I am presuming here, but I would venture to say that what you believe today is different than what you once believed.) How much research has gone into your belief.
 
I believe most believe their opinions are facts...they have faith their opinions are facts.

Many if not most hope their opinions are facts because they believe promises of rewards for believing and eternal punishment for not.

If ya take away heaven, nirvanna, virgins, reincarnation, eternal damnation et al....we would have a lot fewer believers and that's a fact.
 
wil said:
If ya take away heaven, nirvanna, virgins, reincarnation, eternal damnation et al....we would have a lot fewer believers and that's a fact.
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Still don't understand humanity I see. Everyone knows that there is more, someone or something that created all this. So people have to make up something to believe in. It's just human fact! Everyone is a "believer" in something.
 
Opinions is something all humans share, nature and nurture influence greatly our opinions.

Facts about life and its purpose come only from God's Messengers, and from those that the Messengers empower to share.

So our opinions can be based on the objective, but mostly we sway towards the subjective.

Regards Tony
 
wil said:
I believe most believe their opinions are facts...they have faith their opinions are facts.

Many if not most hope their opinions are facts because they believe promises of rewards for believing and eternal punishment for not.

If ya take away heaven, nirvanna, virgins, reincarnation, eternal damnation et al....we would have a lot fewer believers and that's a fact.
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A few years ago I would have agreed. But I don't agree with your last statement at all.

I honestly believe that most people would hold fast to their beliefs even without heaven, nirvana, etc. Politics and history have taught me this. I don't mean this in a positive way. Mostly negative. Most people will stand by their opinion even if it means other people die because of it. People will believe what they want to believe. When presented with facts to the contrary, they will dig in even harder.

I have spoken to old Germans who supported the Nazi party right up until their death. They didn't care that millions of people died because of the Nazi movement. It was still a good movement to them. I spoke to former Peronistas in Argentina who still believed that Peron and their precious Evita were saints. Who cares that people died? The important thing is that they stuck to their opinion.

It's the same with religion. If a person believes in hell, and they read a part in the Bible where it says that their behavior will lead them to hell, they won't change. And if you can mix that religious belief with a political movement, it can become unstoppable.

But that's my opinion.
 
I think that after any person has felt the life transforming 'touch of God' that any true scripture just affirms it. Open any true scripture of any faith on any page and words ring true: "Yes, that's it!" That touch may be all I get, but it reverberates through all my world.

I think 'God' responds to the sincere seeking soul, regardless of time and place and religion, or no religion. I believe if I take one step towards God, then God takes nine steps towards me. I believe that God's angels cannot enter my life without my own invitation; the angels may watch and weep, but are powerless to help me, unless I ask them to.

It may not be the response I would like at first; they may require that I let go of cherished material and emotional attachments, before I can enter through the narrow door.

Just my own thoughts
 
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muhammad_isa said:
The Bible does not say that "God has appeared as Jesus" many times since the creation of Adam.
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Jesus was in the beginning with God and He is the Word of God who was active in all of creation. But the Bible does say that God appears as man at times in the stories.
 
Thinking required said:
Jesus was in the beginning with God and He is the Word of God who was active in all of creation. But the Bible does say that God appears as man at times in the stories.
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It is a logical deduction and Mary said, before Jesus was born

"...50 His mercy is from age to age to those who fear him. 51 He has shown might with his arm, dispersed the arrogant of mind and heart. 52 He has thrown down the rulers from their thrones but lifted up the lowly..." Luke:1

That is obviously referring to the ages past of all the Prophets.

Then Jesus talks of "This age" and the ages to come.

As the flesh amounts to nothing, Jesus was not talking about his flesh, Jesus is talking of the Holy Spirit that God Annoints the Messengers with, from Age to Age.

This is what is known as a "Day of God" and in each New Age, new Day of God, we are called to be born again.

Regards Tony
 
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moralorel said:
They didn't care that millions of people died because of the Nazi movement. It was still a good movement to them.
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The power of indoctrination and using hate and the Bible as tool of hate. Whether fascism uses Christians or Muslims or Jews our holy Scriptures are all written in a way that a focused controlling group can use radical interpretations to support violence against others.
 
wil said:
our holy Scriptures are all written in a way that a focused controlling group can use radical interpretations to support violence against others.
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I should also say that more empathetic, global, and interfaith interpretations can be used to promote peace, compassion and cooperation amongst nations, sees, gender persuasions and beliefs...but that is often defined as woke in today's world.
 
Extremists on both sides deserve and perpetuate each other, and cause all the wars and problems for innocent everyday people just trying to get on, imo
 
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RJM said:
Extremists on both sides deserve and perpetuate each other, and cause all the wars and problems for innocent everyday people just trying to get on, imo
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I'd say greed and a lust for power (greed) cause most of the problems...and religion, nationalism and racism is a convenient tool
 
Thinking required said:
I started to think about how to dialogue about our beliefs. I would like to hear why a person believes what they believe. How did you come to your conclusion, what made you seek something other than what you use to believe (I know that I am presuming here, but I would venture to say that what you believe today is different than what you once believed.) How much research has gone into your belief.
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That's a large subject. Am not going to write my biography here, only a bit.
I have been familiar with both, Islam and Christianity from childhood. My parents were not really religious people. It's always been my initiative to know more. At the age of 8, I decided to attend the reformed Christian lessons in school, because my best friend went there. Already in the first lesson, the teacher asked me something about Islam, as he knew that this was my family's religion, but I didn't know the answer. So, I went to my father, telling him that I want also to go to the Islam classes, which were not in the school but 30 km away in the community building. So, I learned both.
I never had a real change since, but I grew in interest and depth. At the age of 19, I searched for more, I started to practice regular prayer (Salat) and reading the Quran and the Bible.

At the age of 27, I considered to baptize in a Unitarian Church, but I didn't find any in Switzerland except Jehovah's Witnesses who are extremely dogmatic so that I saw at first contact that this is not an option. I asked an Imam outside our community whether it is possible to baptize and stay Muslim, and he said, No. I asked the same in the reformed church, and the answer was no. Since then, I started my own way.

After 2001, I had to position myself in Islam, and I started to study, request and review the Islamic teachings. I finally opted for tolerance of Orthodox Islam as long as they tolerate other positions. Tolerance is not the same as agreeal, it starts at the point of disagreement. I agree with orthodox and conservative Islam scholars in the rejection of terrorists and extremists.

About 12 years ago, I started the project to publish a commented Gospel edition, including the entire original (translated) text of the four canonical accounts, together all related Quran passages, some relevant Hadith with few selected apocryphal scriptures. It's already quite complete, but not finished yet.

I'm so-to-say myself interreligious. Still curious.
 
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wil said:
The power of indoctrination and using hate and the Bible as tool of hate. Whether fascism uses Christians or Muslims or Jews our holy Scriptures are all written in a way that a focused controlling group can use radical interpretations to support violence against others.
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That is a good comment Wil. All the virtues can be likewise distorted and the key for us is to consider what God meant in this Biblical passage.

Isaiah 45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

Love is the ultimate life force, but our misuse of it can bring about great destruction.

This is why the Word of God becomes the sword that cuts right from wrong. When God sends a new Messenger, all things are made new, the Word brings a new creation by which we are judged against.

All of a sudden people of faith can use a previous Message given by God, against the Word God has renewed by the sending of a new Messenger, with a new Name. The more radical elements of faiths past, even use it to kill and destroy the Messengers and the followers God has gifted to share that Word.

This is the Quandary of Faith and humans relative Truth. We have persecuted all those that have brought God's Messages of Love and Unity, and continue to do so. We have used the Word of God to fulfil our own desires and continue to do so.

@RJM wonders about submission. This is why we must learn submission, Muhammad further prepared us for the "Day of God". Without submission, we follow our own perceptions and veils ourselves to the Word that is of God.

Peace and love to all, Regards Tony
 
talib-al-kalim said:
About 12 years ago, I started the project to publish a commented Gospel edition, including the entire original (translated) text of the four canonical accounts, together all related Quran passages, some relevant Hadith with few selected apocryphal scriptures. It's already quite complete, but not finished yet.
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Thank you for sharing, really helps to know a person better.

There are parts of the Gospels included in the Quran, some accurate and some not so accurate. The messages between Jesus and Muhammad are drastically different. Jesus gives us a Salvation of Adoption and Grace, Muhammad a system of works and rewards. But I am glad that you are open minded. Good luck on your venture. PS Don't forget the Gospel of John presents a clearer view of who Jesus is than Matthew, Mark and Luke.
 
Thinking required said:
..The messages between Jesus and Muhammad are drastically different. Jesus gives us a Salvation of Adoption and Grace, Muhammad a system of works and rewards..
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You mean your creed is "drastically different".
If you wiped it out, and read the Bible with no baggage, you might see differently.

I was raised a Christian, and the Qur'an states that we will recognise it as we recognise our own sons
I most certainly do .. I never could understand this "Jesus is G-d" thing.

In fact, that does not teach us anything in particular, even if it were true.
The Qur'an most certainly does .. along with the hadiths .. there is no need to be an extremist,
whatever creed we might feel is true guidance.
 
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