The Knowledge of God versus the Knowledge of Good and Evil

B

Bandit

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Recently I had a dream. I dreamed of an elephant who wanted to be my friend. He was so big, especially up close. And close he was, following me everywhere I went, showing up at odd times and obscuring my view of everything else around me. He wouldn’t allow me to go around him and be on my way. He wanted to be my friend. I found this interesting though awkward at times. There are places it is hard to take an elephant. It was difficult to fit him into my itinerary; but there he was, insistent upon seeking my companionship. And then I thought of my God.
We may wonder sometimes why God made us in the first place. He certainly doesn’t need our help to get anything done.......

For the rest of the message, it is here:
 
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Elephants that obscure your view, Bandit, should be with their fellow elephants, not hanging about with you, obscuring your view and getting in the way of your reasoned actions.
I suggest putting your elephant into a zoo, or returning him or her to the wild, which would be preferable.

If you are not able to do this yourself, call upon others to help in your humanitarian efforts to return said elephant to his own kind.
;)

PS
Are you suggesting 'God' or 'religion' is like an elephant?

They are noble creatures to be sure.
 
Further thought, Bandit:

"Prov 9:10 For the reverence and fear of God are basic to all wisdom. Knowing God results in every other kind of understanding. (TLB)"

I saw this on the website LINK, Bandit, and wondered why there should be "fear" at all in "all wisdom"? What has fear got to do with it?
Why do I need to know God in order to understand the workings of my car or computer? Proverbs does say 'every other kind' of understanding.

Wisdom born of "fear", as part of one's reverence, doesn't seem to me to be wise at all. It could lead to anything, good or bad, least of all 'wise'.

Elephants are gentle and friendly creatures, until they run amok... just like human beings.
 
Last edited by brucegdc : 02-07-2005 at 02:00 PM. Reason: Spam link removed. This is a forum for discussion, not merely pointers to other locations..

Bruce, there is no SPAM on that page. I put it up to have a discussion about Gods knowledge and knowledge of good and evil. I see links all over this board pointing to other locations, in which to view and to have a discussion on.

Blue, You can seek all the knowledge you want on computers and cars. Computers and cars may be the elephant that obscures your knowledge of God and what fear really means.

What do you reverence Blue? Are cars and computers wisdom for you?
 
I think there shouild be a bit of consistency here. I think the messages should be self-contained with external references only for further reading, but that's not always how it's been.

That fantastic speaker Mike Yacconelli once described Christ as a yappy dog that follows you around wagging his tail and wanting to be your friend. That word "fear" I think is just the old translation getting in the way of our understanding. Should be "revere" / "respect" sort of thing.

Interesting Blue says elephants belong in the zoo. So our spiritual life should be kept separate and only taken out for an hour on Sundays? Really? I don't think I could survive that long.

But God doesn't always hang around at your elbow. There are times when for your own good he seems to keep his distance. These are desolate times, but they do get better again. I say this in case some people are going through this "empty quarter" now.
 
I am putting this back up as copy and paste with NO LINK. I feel it is a very good message and compares the two very well and is a very good base for discussion.
If someone wants to see it just opposite and human knowledge is greater than what came first, the chicken or the egg?
Facts are good to know, but is there a compromise made and can there be rationale between the two.
The Knowledge of God versus the Knowledge of Good and Evil

By David Ward

Gen 2:16-17
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Recently I had a dream. I dreamed of an elephant who wanted to be my friend. He was so big, especially up close. And close he was, following me everywhere I went, showing up at odd times and obscuring my view of everything else around me. He wouldn’t allow me to go around him and be on my way. He wanted to be my friend. I found this interesting though awkward at times. There are places it is hard to take an elephant. It was difficult to fit him into my itinerary; but there he was, insistent upon seeking my companionship. And then I thought of my God.

We may wonder sometimes why God made us in the first place. He certainly doesn’t need our help to get anything done. He is self sufficient, all powerful and all knowing. Undoubtedly He could find ways to interest and amuse Himself without the heartache and trauma brought upon Him by humanity. But there He is. Somehow God seems to have a fascination with us that draws Him into a relationship with men, regardless of pitfalls that He clearly sees. David spoke of a deep that called unto deep; something in man that resonates with the nature of God and seeks fellowship. Surely this is the reason our God purposed to create us just like Himself. God wants to be our friend.

It is no mistake that sometimes we find ourselves hemmed in by circumstances and obstacles. Even while we are feverishly searching for a way around the present distress, God is nudging us, searching for some recognition, some evidence that we are aware of His presence. Like the elephant in my dream, He just won’t give up until He has our attention.

The story is told of how five blind men were brought to an elephant and asked to describe him. Each one in turn approached him from a different angle, and sought to understand him from that perspective. The one who grasped his trunk concluded that an elephant was very much like a snake. The gentleman holding his tail opined that, no, he was more like a rope. Leaning against the elephants’ side, another described the elephant as a wall. Arms wrapped around one of the elephants’ legs, another contended that he was most like a tree. Finally the last of them took hold of the elephants’ ear and scoffed at the others, for the elephant was obviously more like a banana leaf. Each with his limited perception did the best he could and came up with a small understanding of a very big subject. How sad that none of them knew the elephant, that none was able to communicate with him. He could have told them so much. And so it is with God.

Having created him, God introduced His friend into the environment of Paradise. With everything created for his good, man was commissioned to “dress and keep” this wondrous place. With the total focus and attention of God upon him, Adam had no competition. All God wanted was the fellowship of His friend in the cool of the day. All Adam had to do was maintain what God had given him and be available when he heard His voice.

Now our God is a jealous being. His eye searches the earth for someone whose heart is completely pointed toward Him. His ear listens for those who speak often of his name, and He makes a record of it. From the beginning of His relationship with men, He has had one requirement for all the benefit He offers to men: you can only have one God. Being jealous of His friend, God placed a test in the midst of paradise. He gave man a choice: he could know God and walk with Him in fellowship, or he could taste of the knowledge of good and evil. He could not have both.

In a day when knowledge is increasing at such a rapid pace, we could keep ourselves busy just trying to keep up. Even in attempting to work for God we find ourselves trying to reach a people whose culture is largely re-invented every three to five years. Face it. We are never going to be that smart. God has placed us in a garden we can only keep through fellowship with Him.

When Eve through deception tasted the fruit she shared it with Adam. Now their eyes were opened. Now they were “wise”; but what of their Friend? Walking in the garden in the cool of the day, the voice of God sought for His companion. Calling out, the voice pleaded, “Where are you?” In that desperate moment God was not trying to discern their location; He was searching for their hearts.

Naked and ashamed, Adam and Eve found that all of their newly acquired knowledge could not give them the covering they needed. God help us not to find ourselves in the same situation. We are never going to improve on the knowledge of God. When the present theories and seeming truths have fallen into disrepute and mockery, God will remain true and wise. If we would know anything, we must know the Lord. Scripture teaches that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. The Living Bible says it well:
\
Prov 9:10 For the reverence and fear of God are basic to all wisdom. Knowing God results in every other kind of understanding. (TLB)

We would not stifle the thirst for knowledge in any one; however the issue becomes crucial when we are deceived. That can be known by the simple test of pre-eminence. When we think that God needs help, that there is any wisdom greater than His, we are in trouble. When we think we can add to our own stature by taking thought, we become deceived.

Adam and Eve were thrust out of the garden prepared for them when they resorted to knowing facts instead of knowing Truth. A flaming sword was thrust into their path to keep them from the tree of life. They died spiritually when they chose earthly knowledge over godly wisdom. And so would we.

Some have chosen to taste the fruit of earthly wisdom and declare to us that we cannot succeed with only the knowledge of God. This is ignorance of the worst kind. The Apostles were investigated and found to be ignorant and unlearned by the sages of their time. Their power and wisdom could only be explained by one means: they had been with Jesus.

It has been said that Albert Einstein possessed the ambition to think the thoughts of God. If we would know the mysteries contained in what God has spoken into existence, then we have a choice. We can search for understanding with our finite ability to perceive, or we can get acquainted with the One who spoke those things into existence.

John 15:13-15
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

Friendship with Jesus opens the way for knowledge which is unavailable from any other source. The last thing Jesus did before He ascended into heaven was to open the understanding of his disciples. He will give His wisdom to all those who seek to share His fellowship.

Prov 2:1-5
1 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;
2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
 
I saw an elephant at the zoo today. It was standing there, just beyond the snow -- an asian elephant named Ruth -- swaying its head back and forth, its trunk swishing side to side. There were very few people at the zoo. I called out to it but it continued to act like that. I went to look at the Lynx and the Bison.

On the way back I stopped to look at the elephant. It was standing turned away, but when it saw me it turned towards me a little and started swinging its trunk more. It looked almost like a bored child trying to occupy its time.

I'm not sure this has any bearing on the conversation, but I saw that someone dreamt about elephants. The lynxes made for better entertainment but the elephant was an enigma.

Dauer
 
Sorry to have to disagree with your piece about the elephant, Bandit. The Tree of Knowledge gets a lot of coverage on this site, and reveals an almost infinite complexity of meaning. Bland statements about facts versus faith just don't suffice. I suppose the story says: we could have been like animals, with no sense of right and wrong, but we chose the hard way. Would anyone really want it otherwise? Understanding brings responsibility, hard choices, trouble. Yet that is what makes us what we are. Live with it.

Blessings, VC
 
Virtual_Cliff said:
Sorry to have to disagree with your piece about the elephant, Bandit. The Tree of Knowledge gets a lot of coverage on this site, and reveals an almost infinite complexity of meaning. Bland statements about facts versus faith just don't suffice. I suppose the story says: we could have been like animals, with no sense of right and wrong, but we chose the hard way. Would anyone really want it otherwise? Understanding brings responsibility, hard choices, trouble. Yet that is what makes us what we are. Live with it.

Blessings, VC
I suppose that will depend on what an individual is searching for. I see two types of knowledge. Do some search for only one of them or can we search for both?
Faith and facts are also two different things and I am not sure they can be compared. Seems to me facts go with facts and faith goes with faith.
I seek after both- Gods knowledge and physical knowledge, but the first over the latter.:)
Is Gods logic the same as mans logic?
 
KnightoftheRose said:
I rather liked the article...glad you reposted it...
I liked it too. I have no idea who the guy is, but my favorite part is that God wants us as a friend by having knowledge in Him. There is no judging or provoking in the article and he also supports earthly knowledge.
 
Dear Bandit

So true GOD does want to be our friend and partner if we allow it to BE -
co-creators.

The elephant is one of GOD's amazing messengers, we call these totem animals.The ancient indigenous and shamans listened to the messages from the animals and many of us do today. The elephant is the most spiritual sacred royal animal.

The Keynote is: Ancient Power, strength and royalty.
The cycle of power is one year.

It is said that the mothers of great teachers and masters will dream of white elephants. One story of Buddha's mother tells how she dreamt of a white elephant had entered her womb.

In India, and southeast Asia elephants are venerated, and the symbolism of the elephant is multiple. It is a symbol of royalty and fertility, the Hindu GOD of wisdom and success, Genesha is usually depicted with an elephants head. The GOD Indra also held several roles in which an elephant played its part. As the King of the GODs, the elephant was the royal mount.

The elephant is the most auspicious symbolism, they embody strength and power of the libido and great sexual power. Those with elephant totems should study the symbolism and significance of clouds. In general, they are symbols of the mist that separates the formed worlds from the unformed. They have been associated with Neptune, prophecy, fertility and family. Because they are always in a state of metamorphosis, they can reflect the same for those with the elephant totem. They rely heavily on their sense of smell and smell as been a long time symbol for higher forms of discrimination. Those with this totem should pay attention to what smells good and what smells bad. Elephant asks us 'Are you discriminating as you should? Are others? Does something smell funny? Are you not responding eventhough things do not smell right? Aromatherapy massage is good for you, fragrances help to shift your conscioousness most effectively. Grown elephants will always help sick or wounded comrades. In the elephant are the ideals of true societies.

Those with this totem will have the opportunity to reestablish powerful family societal ideals. Mutual care of the young, respect for the elderly and the sick, being strong in your own self - these are the foundations of a great person. If the elephant has come to you, you will have the opportunity to work toward establishing this within your own life or the lives of others. Prepare to draw upon the most ancient wisdom and power. You will have the oppoortunity to either help yourself or others reclaim your most primordial royalty.

Source: excerpts from Animal-Speak by Ted Andrews

Elephant in addition to the above:
Long memory, patience, wisdom.
Buddhist: Sacred to Buddha, Jewel of the Law, the vahan of the Bodhisattva; compassion, love, kindness.

Chinese: Strength, prudence, energy, sovereignty.

Christian: Is a symbol of Christ as an enemy of the serpent, trampling the serpent underfoot; chastity; benignity.

Graeco-Roman: An attribute of Mercury as intelligence. Pliny says the elephant is a religious animal, worshipping the sun and stars, and purifying itself at the new moon, bathing in the river and invoking the heavens. In Roman art, longevity, immortality, victory over death.

Hindu: (in addition to the above) The world is supported by elephants.

Source: Illustrated encyclopedia of traditional symbols by J.C.Cooper

The Bodhisattva of Compassion and Mercy, Quan Yin (Kuan Yin) often comes riding a baby elephant.

Bandit the elephant is one of the most wonderful spiritual energies, yes indeed allow him to be your friend and guide you, for he is a messenger from GOD.

It was written in a Japanese newspaper that Buddha once said that 'To those that can be brought to enlightenment by a GOD I will come as a GOD, to those that can be brought to enlightenment by a King, I will come as a King, to those that can be brought to enlightenment by a woman, I will come as a woman and to those that can brought to enlightenment by an animal, I will come as an animal.

And so it is that GOD works in mysterious ways to communicate with us, the glorious manifestation of the grace of GOD and for sure the elephant is a representation of GOD's grace.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar
 
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Bandit said:
Adam and Eve were thrust out of the garden prepared for them when they resorted to knowing facts instead of knowing Truth. A flaming sword was thrust into their path to keep them from the tree of life. They died spiritually when they chose earthly knowledge over godly wisdom. And so would we.
First the obvious correction: it was not knowledge of facts that they gained, but the knowledge of the difference between good and evil. It is hard to take something seriously that misses the whole point.

Anyway, some facts are plain facts: 12 inches in one foot. Some facts only seem to be facts: the pursuit of money makes you wealthy, war makes a nation powerful, people go to university to get a higher paid job etc. For this second group we do need wisdom, not just knowledge. These days politicians like to paint their policies as science when it is pure unfettered short-sighted greed and agression. We need prophets to correct them.
 
Dear VC

So would you say adam and eve chose a yin and yang society? And is this not the case/repeat in the other myth/legend of the fall of Atlantis?

Dear All

And so what does this show us? That there was a time on earth when people only lived in peace and love prior to the fall down the dimensions.

Love beyond measure

Sacrestar
 
Howdy all,

Bandits dream of the elephant made me think of the story of the blind folded men and the elephant.

Five blind-folded men as asked to identitfy an unknown object the object is an elephant.

The first feels the elephants ear and declares " it is a fan ".

The second feels the elephants leg and declares " it is a tree ".

The third feels the elephants trunk and declares " it is a hose ".

The fourth feels the elephants tail and declares " it is a brush ".

The fifth feels the elephants side and declares " it is a wall ".

Knowledge of God is somewhat the same as those five blindfolded mens declarations to do with the elephant.

Yours Larry
 
hi diamondsouled:)

it was not really my dream, it was a ministers dream & i just happened to come across his message one day out of the blue & i found all that he had to say about the difference in the two, to be a benefit for me.
sadly only a couple of others found it the same way i did & no one was interested in a nice discussion on what the minister had to say...as you can see.

i think people are trying to figure out God too much and/or leaning to some kind of knowledge as in physical facts only, rather than doing this walk in spirit & in truth & by faith.
hard telling.

oh well...i guess it is a water hose with a peanut stuck in it.
 
Interesting topic, Bandit. Here is something from a book I am currently reading called Open Mind Open Heart by Thomas Keating on the topic of original sin.

The term original sin is a way of describing the human condition, which is the universal experience of coming to full reflective self-consciousness without the certitude of personal union with God. This gives rise to our intimate sense of incompletion, dividedness, isolation, and guilt.

Original sin is not the result of personal wrongdoing on our part. Still, it causes a pervasive feeling of alienation from God, from other people and from the true Self. The cultural consequences of these alienations are instilled in us from earliest childhood and passed on from one generation to the next. The urgent need to escape from the profound insecurity of this situation gives rise, when unchecked, to insatiable desires for pleasure, possession, and power. On the social level, it gives rise to violence, war, and instiutional injustice.

The particular consequences of original sin include all the self-serving habits that have been woven into our personality from the time we were conceived; all the emotional damage that has come from our early environment and upbringing; all the harm that other people have done to us knowingly or unknowingly at an age when we could not defend ourselves; and the methods we acquired--many of them now unconscious--to ward off the pain of unbearable situations.

Some may conclude that this reduces original sin and the knowledge of good and evil all to just psychology, but I do not think so. I think this expresses the human condition in a fallen world where we have the free will to choose our way whether or not to live a God-centered life. How one lives a God-centered life is implicit in the paragraphs above--to realize that there is no alienation or division between us: each other and God.

So, this doesn't have anythng to do with elephants. I think they are majestic creatures and I am deeply saddened that they may become extinct during my lifetime. I also always think about how elephants will stay near a dead member of their herd for a long time in mourning before moving on.

peace,
lunamoth

ps sorry for the typos
 
thank you Luna:)

i have been wanting to describe the term original sin. Open Mind Open Heart is exactly what I have been thinking, just could not get out the right description for it.
i appreciate your post because i am seeing it the same way.
It is a condition.:)

It is no mistake that sometimes we find ourselves hemmed in by circumstances and obstacles. Even while we are feverishly searching for a way around the present distress, God is nudging us, searching for some recognition, some evidence that we are aware of His presence. Like the elephant in my dream, He just won’t give up until He has our attention.

while I am looking at all this 'other' knowledge, i am glad the elephant keeps nudging until He has my attention.
 
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