The Synod in the Catholic Church

It's the way Mother Theresa was portrayed by Christopher Hitchens as an evil woman that makes me believe Satan really does exist -- the father of lies
 
RJM said:
But in direct opposition to the Church ruling on euthanasia?
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Again I suppose this reflects my somewhat heretical view that I don't believe God is a micro-manager, and I do rather think we should be allowed to make monumental decisions for ourselves ...

On a broader reach, I do think there is a sometimes a tendency for the Institutional church to infantilise the laity – we might not be as well schooled in moral theology as a priest (debatable) – but I do think we should be allowed to make certain moral choices for ourselves and take responsibility accordingly.

I don't want to derail this thread into deep waters, but I'm thinking about end-of-life choices, and other aspects of a lived faith.

I mean – the doctor is not absolved because he administered a drug that killed the patient before the cancer did. But what of the patient? Should we as patients refuse drug treatments in such cases because it could be constituted as 'assisted suicide'?

When I had my op. the consultant ran through the risks which, of course, included a minimal risk of death ... have I the right to make such a decision if life is a gift of God and not to be toyed with?

I'm playing devil's advocate here, I know ... but it is a big question.

Medicine is becoming more adept at keeping the dying alive. The question is always, at what cost? What of the quality of life of the individual? Is it required that the treatment keeps the patient alive at all costs, even if withdrawal of treatment would result in death?

Without treatment, the patient would die. Surely then, that was God's plan, the argument being that if so, then God would 'take' the patient regardless of medical intervention, if He does not 'take' the patient, then He wants the patient to survive ... I think the argument is flawed, in fact I'm sure there's a logical flaw here, just can't think what it is.

I can accept suffering with dignity – as per Mother Theresa – the leats we can do is pick up a dying man from the gutter. (Presumably Hitchens would leave him there.) – But that's on us – I just can't see how suffering for its own sake furthers God's plan?

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Again, I'm not being argumentative ... I don't have answers, these are just questions I struggle with ...

God gives life ... does He ever say "Take what I've given you, and run with it ... ?"

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My dad's last words: "I don't think my heart can take much more of this."

He suffered from heart disease for years. He was in hospital the week he died. A young doc said "We should let him go home," so my then partner went with my mum to collect him. Dad was to bring oxygen home with him, but a ward sister said none was available, so he'd have to stay. My mum accepted that, she was brought up to respect authority. My partner had no such upbringing, and wouldn't accept being brushed off. "Where's the oxygen stored? I'll get it myself." she made a fuss, and lo! – the oxy was found.

Dad was at home, in his own bed, where he wanted to be. Two nights later, mum heard him singing in his sleep – she'd never heard him do that before – the next day, he took a turn for the worse and said those words as he left home for hospital – he was pronounced on arrival.

Mum was a different case – dementia, not so easy ...

Sorry to bang on ... today's dad's anniversary.
 
Thomas said:
Again I suppose this reflects my somewhat heretical view that I don't believe God is a micro-manager, and I do rather think we should be allowed to make monumental decisions for ourselves ...

On a broader reach, I do think there is a sometimes a tendency for the Institutional church to infantilise the laity – we might not be as well schooled in moral theology as a priest (debatable) – but I do think we should be allowed to make certain moral choices for ourselves and take responsibility accordingly.

I don't want to derail this thread into deep waters, but I'm thinking about end-of-life choices, and other aspects of a lived faith.

I mean – the doctor is not absolved because he administered a drug that killed the patient before the cancer did. But what of the patient? Should we as patients refuse drug treatments in such cases because it could be constituted as 'assisted suicide'?

When I had my op. the consultant ran through the risks which, of course, included a minimal risk of death ... have I the right to make such a decision if life is a gift of God and not to be toyed with?

I'm playing devil's advocate here, I know ... but it is a big question.

Medicine is becoming more adept at keeping the dying alive. The question is always, at what cost? What of the quality of life of the individual? Is it required that the treatment keeps the patient alive at all costs, even if withdrawal of treatment would result in death?

Without treatment, the patient would die. Surely then, that was God's plan, the argument being that if so, then God would 'take' the patient regardless of medical intervention, if He does not 'take' the patient, then He wants the patient to survive ... I think the argument is flawed, in fact I'm sure there's a logical flaw here, just can't think what it is.

I can accept suffering with dignity – as per Mother Theresa – the leats we can do is pick up a dying man from the gutter. (Presumably Hitchens would leave him there.) – But that's on us – I just can't see how suffering for its own sake furthers God's plan?

+++

Again, I'm not being argumentative ... I don't have answers, these are just questions I struggle with ...

God gives life ... does He ever say "Take what I've given you, and run with it ... ?"

+++

My dad's last words: "I don't think my heart can take much more of this."

He suffered from heart disease for years. He was in hospital the week he died. A young doc said "We should let him go home," so my then partner went with my mum to collect him. Dad was to bring oxygen home with him, but a ward sister said none was available, so he'd have to stay. My mum accepted that, she was brought up to respect authority. My partner had no such upbringing, and wouldn't accept being brushed off. "Where's the oxygen stored? I'll get it myself." she made a fuss, and lo! – the oxy was found.

Dad was at home, in his own bed, where he wanted to be. Two nights later, mum heard him singing in his sleep – she'd never heard him do that before – the next day, he took a turn for the worse and said those words as he left home for hospital – he was pronounced on arrival.

Mum was a different case – dementia, not so easy ...

Sorry to bang on ... today's dad's anniversary.
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Condolences
 
Thomas said:
I'm waiting for the day when the Sacred College of Cardinals accepts women religious into its ranks – I see no concrete reason why not.
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Women religious are very different than priests and bishops though. I know cardinals technically don't need to be priests, but they almost always are bishops, which makes sense imo.
 
RJM said:
However -- here's a story: I know a doctor who told me that in the final stages of cancer he sometimes administers a fatal dose of diamorphine (heroin), to allow the person to die peacefully without further unbearable suffering.
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You have posed a real dilemma, but I wonder how God sees this. Millions of children are left to die from abject poverty, starvation and preventable disease. Are they given the choice of food or a quick and painless death? Moral problems trouble most of us.

Here is another story.

My mum went into a coma and was rushed to hospital, her breathing was a horrible gurgling sound, nicknamed the death rattle. The doctors said she had hours to live and there was nothing they could do for her. We called a priest, although none of us had a faith at the time, we just thought it was what you should do as mum was bought up a Catholic.

As the priest prayed my mum’s breathing seemed to change, the gurgling sound disappeared. About ten minutes after the priest walked out the door, mum came round and started to speak, she had no recollection of anything that happened in hospital, or that the priest had prayed for her. We thought it might have just been a temporary reprieve, but she lived another eleven years.

Having our mum back was a mixed blessing, because she had suffered with multiple sclerosis for about twenty years prior to the coma, and she had gradually lost the use of both her legs and arms. Before the coma, there were times she said she wanted to die, she had also asked us to help her die. After the coma my mum regarded her healing as a blessing, despite her paralysed body, and she said she was not ready to die after surviving the coma.

Her life had a profound effect on me. I really could not understand how she seemed to just accept being paralysed from the neck down, she rarely complained and often seemed more worried and concerned about our problems than her own. She had a faith in God and she sometimes used to say that she is ready to meet Jesus now. People might have said that it would have been kinder for her to have passed away in hospital.

I can only say that I will never meet a stronger person than my mum, she was so kind and caring too. Faith is only faith when it is tested; sometimes it seems that God tests us in extreme ways. We all die; faith and trust in God helps us to look forwards to a greater good life after death.
 
EricPH said:
You have posed a real dilemma, but I wonder how God sees this. Millions of children are left to die from abject poverty, starvation and preventable disease. Are they given the choice of food or a quick and painless death? Moral problems trouble most of us.

Here is another story.

My mum went into a coma and was rushed to hospital, her breathing was a horrible gurgling sound, nicknamed the death rattle. The doctors said she had hours to live and there was nothing they could do for her. We called a priest, although none of us had a faith at the time, we just thought it was what you should do as mum was bought up a Catholic.

As the priest prayed my mum’s breathing seemed to change, the gurgling sound disappeared. About ten minutes after the priest walked out the door, mum came round and started to speak, she had no recollection of anything that happened in hospital, or that the priest had prayed for her. We thought it might have just been a temporary reprieve, but she lived another eleven years.

Having our mum back was a mixed blessing, because she had suffered with multiple sclerosis for about twenty years prior to the coma, and she had gradually lost the use of both her legs and arms. Before the coma, there were times she said she wanted to die, she had also asked us to help her die. After the coma my mum regarded her healing as a blessing, despite her paralysed body, and she said she was not ready to die after surviving the coma.

Her life had a profound effect on me. I really could not understand how she seemed to just accept being paralysed from the neck down, she rarely complained and often seemed more worried and concerned about our problems than her own. She had a faith in God and she sometimes used to say that she is ready to meet Jesus now. People might have said that it would have been kinder for her to have passed away in hospital.

I can only say that I will never meet a stronger person than my mum, she was so kind and caring too. Faith is only faith when it is tested; sometimes it seems that God tests us in extreme ways. We all die; faith and trust in God helps us to look forwards to a greater good life after death.No words ...
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No words ...
 
Modesty said:
Women religious are very different than priests and bishops though. I know cardinals technically don't need to be priests, but they almost always are bishops, which makes sense imo.
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There was a time (early days, I do admit) when a pope could be chosen from the laity!

As time progressed, the stipulation became more and more strict – a deacon, priest, bishop, cardinal ... will there ever be a time when a pope appoints his successor?

Originally, cardinals were parish priests in the diocese of Rome – and they elected the Pope, which made sure the papacy was an Italian/Roman sinecure ...

There were, until the last century, cardinal-deacons, cardinal-priests and cardinal-bishops. Now just bishops. There was once a limit of 24 cardinals in total – now that's been revised to an electoral body of 120+ cardinals under the age of 80 – over 80 you're disqualified from voting ... the college has changed a lot this last 100 years.

The wiki article makes interesting reading.

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The Dissolution of the Monasteries has come down in UK Anglican history as necessary because of the widescale abuses of all sorts within the monastic orders ... this is largely propaganda.

The actual reason was to find funds for the (near bankrupt) Crown Estate to pay for Henry VIIIs foreign wars. Unlike the currents sweeping Europe – a grass-roots reaction against the religious institutions in the wake of Protestant reforms – in England the dissolution was engineered by the upper echelons of society – the crown and the barons – and was met by suspicion and sometimes resistance in the middle and lower orders of society.

In the end the King profited little – the winners were the landed gentry who took possession of vast estates and laid the foundations for their personal wealth that continues to this day. (Queen Victoria noted in her diary that the aristocracy was far richer and lived richer lifestyles than the Royal Family. Parliament took steps to remedy the situation.)

I labour the point because there were abbesses in England who managed vast rural estates very, very successfully, and there were those among them who could serve admirably in a College of Cardinals both for their insight and their skills.
 
RJM said:
No words ...
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My sincere apologies for the post this morning, I wrote it rather quickly before going out. My mum, in essence, asked us to do for her, what the nurse did for your dad. I can understand how this would help your dad, and how your family would feel more at peace, knowing his suffering would be reduced.

We could not bring ourselves to help our mum die, she had said about a pillow over her face while she slept. I can only say, after she survived the coma, she found a profound sense of peace that I still wonder at thirty years later.
 
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EricPH said:
My sincere apologies for the post this morning, I wrote it rather quickly before going out. My mum, in essence, asked us to do for her, what the nurse did for your dad. I can understand how this would help your dad, and how your family would feel more at peace, knowing his suffering would be reduced.

We could not bring ourselves to help our mum die, she had said about a pillow over her face while she slept. I can only say, after she survived the coma, she found a profound sense of peace that I still wonder at thirty years later.
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Why do you apologise? No words for all you and your family have been through
 
Thomas said:
I labour the point because there were abbesses in England who managed vast rural estates very, very successfully, and there were those among them who could serve admirably in a College of Cardinals both for their insight and their skills.
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Mmm, I do see your point. I just am always wary about pushing for women to have more roles in the hierarchy. That's one thing that worries me about the synod lol. Most religions have specifically gendered roles and I for one never lamented the fact that I couldn't be a deacon, much less a priest that these crazy German bishops are always clamoring for lol.
 
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