A New Creation

Well now we're comparing belief v disbelief, but that still points to a revelance of the term, doesn't it?
You have to understand the primary meaning of miracle to express an opinion about it.

No. It points to a logical error: fallacy of denying the antecedent. You're assuming that if people disbelieve in the traditional meaning of the term, then it follows that the term itself is still relevant. Does disbelief in something mean it is still relevant? Many people no longer believe in the existence of Santa Claus, but the term "Santa Claus" is still used and understood within a different context to mean a person associated with Christmas gift-giving.

Also, disbelief in the traditional meaning could actually be evidence of a gradual shift in the term's meaning.

I wonder what percentage believed in miracles in Jesus' day? Clearly not everyone ...

But clearly not as low as 59 percent?
 
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No. It points to a logical error: fallacy of denying the antecedent.
OK.

Many people no longer believe in the existence of Santa Claus, but the term "Santa Claus" is still used and understood within a different context to mean a person associated with Christmas gift-giving.
OK. I think that's a fallacy argument too, but OK.

Also, disbelief in the traditional meaning could actually be evidence of a gradual shift in the term's meaning.
Maybe, maybe not. Yours to prove.

But clearly not as low as 59 percent?
I have no idea.

As I said, I think this is somewhat of a dversion with regard to the OP.
 
As I said, I think this is somewhat of a dversion with regard to the OP.
In my opinion, you cannot have one (a new creation) without the other (a new perspective).

That's why I do not regard this discussion in terms of a diversion.

But, if you do, I do not mind dropping the topic and apologizing for wandering off topic.

I have no idea.

It appears archeological evidence suggests that divination, oracles, and other forms of magical and miraculous thinking were widespread in the Roman Empire of the 1st century. So many coins, tablet inscriptions, written documents, statues, temples, shrines, amulets, and more that leave evidence that such thinking was widespread, yet you have no idea?
 
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In my opinion, you cannot have one (a new creation) without the other (a new perspective).
The new creation will bring its new perspective ... the latter derives from the former, not the other way round.

Having said that, 2 Corinthians 5 is an extended meditation on the topic "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (5:17).

That's why I do not regard this discussion in terms of a diversion.
I find your arguments re miracles as marginal and a matter of opinion.

It appears archeological evidence ...
Sorry, I can argue the evidence, but not the fact of a given percentage – I thought if I did I'd be subject to some logical fallacy.

Christ performed miracles, but I suppose this was in the time of miracles and wonders, so yes, one more miracle worker and not everybody is obliged to accept every claim to working wonders is so – and also begs the question what supernatural power, for good or ill, is in play.

By my reckoning – if I ask someone 'Do you believe in miracles?' they'll answer yes or no, or provisionally, but with the original meaning in mind.
 
The new creation will bring its new perspective ... the latter derives from the former, not the other way round.
I didn't mean to imply that one came first and the other came later, nor that one derives from the other. I was thinking more along these lines: perhaps they are one side of the same coin.
 
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Christ performed miracles, but I suppose this was in the time of miracles and wonders
This implies God favors certain groups or eras in the distant past over our own. I feel sorry for kids with less access to God today - that is, those with terminal illnesses. They just so happen to live in a less favored era, one in which God is less accessible. I would have thought God was equally concerned with all creation - and no matter the time period.
 
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This implies God favors certain groups or eras in the distant past over our own..
I can understand why you might think that..

I feel sorry for kids with less access to God today - that is, those with terminal illnesses..
I don't think that they do (have less access).
People are a lot more literate than they were back then.
..and that is the most important thing .. first comes faith, and then seeking knowledge.

I would have thought God was equally concerned with all creation - and no matter the time period.
Of course.
..but the life hereafter is what it is all about .. and how to tread a righteous path (to achieve success).
 
I feel sorry for kids with less access to God today - that is, those with terminal illnesses. They just so happen to live in a less favored era, one in which God is less accessible. I would have thought God was equally concerned with all creation - and no matter the time period.
In Christianity's view He is ... is He not in yours?
 
In Christianity's view He is ... is He not in yours?
Yes as they are the same faith, from the same One God.

Having said that, my frame of reference is made new, as reflected in the passage you offered. "2 Corinthians 5 is an extended meditation on the topic "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (5:17).

New ways of thinking about older concepts.

Regards Tony
 
Having said that, my frame of reference is made new, as reflected in the passage you offered. "2 Corinthians 5 is an extended meditation on the topic "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (5:17).
OK – I'd say the way to think about that concept is the way outlined by Paul in the text – any other way is eisegesis.
We can discuss the following verses if you like.

+++

As regards the New Creation in mind of 1 Corinthians 1Co 15:51-52 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

That is the mystery, which will happen 'in a moment', in a heartbeat, as it were, and not by a series of incremental changes, and although there will be signs and portents, this does not help us so much as there are signs and portents in all times and all ages, as it clear by the numbers of people, down through history, as seeing their time as it.

And if you want to discuss that mystery, we can do that, too.
 
OK – I'd say the way to think about that concept is the way outlined by Paul in the text – any other way is eisegesis.
We can discuss the following verses if you like.

+++

As regards the New Creation in mind of 1 Corinthians 1Co 15:51-52 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

That is the mystery, which will happen 'in a moment', in a heartbeat, as it were, and not by a series of incremental changes, and although there will be signs and portents, this does not help us so much as there are signs and portents in all times and all ages, as it clear by the numbers of people, down through history, as seeing their time as it.

And if you want to discuss that mystery, we can do that, too.
We could discuss Thomas, but I see we would face much of the same issues. I see that an understanding of these verses also requires an understanding of what Baha'u'llah offered in the Kitab-i-iqan as to how God reveals Revelations to us.

I personally have concluded that Biblical Prophecies are also timeless, that they all unfold through the subsequent Revelations given by God and some are still for future Messengers to build upon.

I see ample passage unfolded in the Revelations of Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. I see Baha'u'llah has brought the Day of the "Lords Prayer", yet that day was rejected and is for a more distant future.

As for the verse you quoted.

As regards the New Creation in mind of 1 Corinthians 1Co 15:51-52 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

I see that is the next stage to unfold prior to the Lesser Peace, as Baha'u'llah has offered to us.

“The world is in travail and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then and only then will the Divine Standard be unfurled and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.”

There is much written about this, we are told it will happen overnight, one day the old world, the next day the event changes humanities direction, we do not know what or when it will be, but the signs happening in this age now, are very intone with what we have been told will happen as we approach that day.

I noted the humour about Frame of Reference, as did @Ahanu but it is very applicable Thomas, the concept being that no one is wrong in their given frame of reference.

Our challenge is to obtain Proverbs 20:12 "The hearing ear and the seeing eye, the Lord has made them both." Yet we are prone to Ezekiel 12:2 “Son of man, you dwell in the midst of a rebellious house, who have eyes to see, but see not, who have ears to hear, but hear not, for they are a rebellious house."

So many Biblical verses about hearing with new ears and seeing with new eyes, or seeing other Frames of References.

I use the explanations given in the Baha'i Writings to find the Oneness of Humanity, the Oneness of the God of all Faiths, so how are we to be reconciled in our frames of references Thomas?

Is this a "New Creation", of heart and mind, that in turn has changed the material world since the Revelations were given!

Regards Tony
 
I see that an understanding of these verses also requires an understanding of what Baha'u'llah offered in the Kitab-i-iqan as to how God reveals Revelations to us.
I don't regard your texts as or authoritative.

I noted the humour about Frame of Reference, as did @Ahanu but it is very applicable Thomas, the concept being that no one is wrong in their given frame of reference.
No-one believes themselves to be wrong, you mean.

Clearly, some people are misguided because their frame of reference rules out the existence of God.

Clearly, some people are misguided because the follow false prophets

I use the explanations given in the Baha'i Writings to find the Oneness of Humanity, the Oneness of the God of all Faiths, so how are we to be reconciled in our frames of references Thomas?
We can't, other than acknowledge each other and continue on our way.
 
No-one believes themselves to be wrong, you mean.

Clearly, some people are misguided because their frame of reference rules out the existence of God.

Clearly, some people are misguided because the follow false prophets
Maybe you could look at the studies on the subject.

Regards Tony
 
We can't, other than acknowledge each other and continue on our way
I see only God knows our hearts and God can bring out the potential whenever God so chooses.

I think that can happen to anyone, at anytime.

I see that is the "New Creation" that unfolds with every Messenger, the potential is in the given "Word".

Regards Tony
 
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