The Myth of Progress

Really? Which list of genocides are you looking at?
There's one on wiki.

Does anyone find it funny we judge the growth of society based on its worst people?
Nope ... I'm not arguing best or worst, just what the data says about human nature over a broad span of history.

Theoretically, 'progress' with regard to humanity should evidence an increase in empathy and a concordant diminishment of tribalism.
 
Yes, there is one on wiki...

I wish to know where you place the last year or decade on your chart of atrocities.

When and where you want to define this decline so we can discuss it without ambiguity.

And you do seem to be judging the "myth of progress" by its last place finisher.

With that logic we would make a movie about the Jamaican luge team
 
The last century witnessed some of the worst crimes against humanity ever committed, looking at the numbers, various genocides, purges, and as science makes fantastic advances, says he who has a titanium and cobalt hip, having had an operation that was absolutely painless, sitting here at his computer, sipping coffee from the other side of the planet ...
It also witnessed the signs of a new world order that is rolling out in stead of the disintegration of the old world order.

It is already in prophecy that mankind will sink to the lowest depths before the dawn of the age of peace. All the time, the goodness that is being built, will be the foundations of that new world order.

Religious and race predudices are being dropped by many around the world, gender equality is on the rise, the concept of world citizenship, as one people on one planet has strong foundations. The elimination of extreme wealth and poverty is becoming a needed path. The need for the disarmament of Nations is becoming a reality. The need for a strong universal body, representing all Nations has been attempted with the League of Natiins and the United Nations, the realisation that Vetoed votes renders the body toothless is becoming known, a new body will address these issues.

So much more good is happening amongst the chaos of old world order mindsets. A great future is being born.

Regards Tony
 
And you do seem to be judging the "myth of progress" by its last place finisher.
Quite the opposite, I'm judging the MoP by its origin.

In the Ancient World, and in many surviving traditions, time is cyclic (eg Hinduism, and arguably, in the Abrahamic Tradition.)

Allowing 'cycles' for a moment, the Abrahamic might be said to be speaking about this particular cycle, from the Creation to the End of the World – as one complete and self-contained cycle, without reference to any other, it can be conceived of as 'linear'.

Nowhere in the Traditions (afaik) is there the concept of man getting progressively 'better', there's no indication of a progressive and evolving human spirituality, and that is what I'm discussing – material progress is a another discussion and one I don't dispute, although everyone seems to think I am, and want to argue in those terms, which I'm at pains to point out aren't relative to the discussion.

When the 'End' comes, it will arrive with dire portents, but then also like 'a thief in the night', in fact Scripture seems at pains to make the point it will come when we least expect it. And the fact that every age, since the record began, sees dire portents in its own time means that reading the times accordingly is really not much use.

The MoP as it exists today is actually a product of the de-mystification of religion by the Protestant Reformation – an argument made, quite strongly, by an atheist philosopher – but that in itself is a whole other discussion.

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We, as people, suffer the same vices as we always have, and are no better nor worse than we ever were, despite all the trappings of 'civilisation'. Human vices and virtues have been listed and discussed from Antiquity, and they are the same now as they were then – we have not outgrown any of them ... therefore progress, in that context, is an illusion.
 
It also witnessed the signs of a new world order that is rolling out in stead of the disintegration of the old world order.
Sadly I can evidence a firm rebuttal of every claim you make.

But none of this indicates that humanity has 'evolved' in any substantial sense – see my comment above on vice and virtue.
 
Regarding virtue and vice – and their enduring relevance, as well as the commentaries of the Philosophers, there are commentaries in the Abrahamic texts, commentaries on the Gunas in Hinduism (notably tamas, but also rajas), the Five Poisons of Buddhism, the Five Thieves of Sikhism, and so on ...
 
Sadly I can evidence a firm rebuttal of every claim you make.

But none of this indicates that humanity has 'evolved' in any substantial sense – see my comment above on vice and virtue.
Then they are wrong...evolution is one of the many things they were not aware of....
One of the main teachings of Baha’u’llah is that humanity has been created to carry forth and ever advancing civilisation.

@Thomas I am not surprised you can not see this if you choose reject the authority of Baha’u’llah.

One applicable short passage.

"....All men have been created to carry forward an ever-advancing civilization. The Almighty beareth Me witness: To act like the beasts of the field is unworthy of man. Those virtues that befit his dignity are forbearance, mercy, compassion and loving-kindness towards all the peoples and kindreds of the earth..."

To those that do want to pursue the possibility, gain ideas as to how this is happening, I will supply a link so you can start your search.


The unity of the human race is the next step in the evolution of this advancement. Humanity is still in its adolescence, just approaching adulthood. I see the evidence of this advancement in all that has been offered in the Baha'i Writings, which are being reflected in the changing world.

That is why you may not see it @Thomas

All the best, to all people, regards Tony
 
Sadly I can evidence a firm rebuttal of every claim you make.

But none of this indicates that humanity has 'evolved' in any substantial sense – see my comment above on vice and virtue.
Humanity went from tribe, to village to town to Nation building, there is an evolution is society building.

Nationhood has become a cause of anarchy and has come to an end, we are evolving into a world citizenship, a world body will govern the affairs of mankind, national governments will be subordinate to the world legislative.

The signs of this are becoming apparent.

"....World unity is the goal towards which a harassed humanity is striving. Nation-building has come to an end. The anarchy inherent in state sovereignty is moving towards a climax. A world, growing to maturity, must abandon this fetish, recognize the oneness and wholeness of human relationships, and establish once for all the machinery that can best incarnate this fundamental principle of its life..."

Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh

You do not need to accept Baha’u’llah to see the wisdom in the quote above, given current world affairs.

Regards Tony
 
Nationhood has become a cause of anarchy and has come to an end, we are evolving into a world citizenship, a world body will govern the affairs of mankind, national governments will be subordinate to the world legislative.

The signs of this are becoming apparent..
Really??
I see increasing nationalism & enmity :(
 
Sorry, Tony, but this is a secular board, and the arguments should rest on secular reasoning.

Bahai' prognostications are therefore admissible, nor in fact are they relevant to a discussion of origins, not ends.
 
Sorry, Tony, but this is a secular board, and the arguments should rest on secular reasoning.

Bahai' prognostications are therefore admissible, nor in fact are they relevant to a discussion of origins, not ends.
Therin lies a grave error of reasoning.

Regards Tony
 
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Therin lies a grave error of reasoning.
Remember this is a secular board, Tony.

John Gray argues his case strongly, and I have supplied Biblical evidence in support of that 'progress' is not Biblically founded.

If you see an error of reasoning in that, then there's something to discuss – but Baha'i prognostications don't strictly apply.
 
Is that your definition of progress?
I'm not talking about material progress – Agriculture was a huge step. Science pushes back the boundaries of knowledge of the material universe, with all its plusses and its minuses.

The OP is about Gray's argument that 'progress' – that we are somehow 'better' people than we were, is argued by atheists but based on a psedo-Biblical idea.

Hippocrates lived 470-360BC. The Hippocratic Oath, although reworded and revised, is substantially the same – morally and ethically is still the Gold Standard.

Isaac Newton (in 1675) was not the first to say: "if I have seen further (than others), it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."

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Human rights, civil rights, people of color....women....

Which decade do you think other than those in privilege would prefer?
Are you not referring to "the privileged", relatively speaking from a global perspective?
 
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