Universalism

'Amir Alzzalam said:
Then explain the ever-present concept found in all the Abrahamic faiths that if you do not follow scripture/god's word/the rules then you will Rot in HELL, or some form of manipulative punishment.
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Well, you are asking Thomas, but as the instigator of this thread ( which in essence spoke of the problematic side of Universalism - and nowhere mentioned Taoism) I'll step into the free for all!

I'd say that it is an ever present concept because it is not recognised that ethics (genuine ethics) can only ever be a by-product of wisdom (genuine understanding) It seems a natural thing to think that being "good" is some sort of ticket to the Promised Land. *

In my understanding, in the OT God (or was it Yahweh?) promised that in the age to come (!) His law would be written on human hearts and not on tablets of stone. When such is so, any act of empathy, love, kindness or compassion would be done "in Christ". (But then again, as is said "every little helps")

It is sad to me that it seems so much "eastern" stuff is lumped together. I mentioned Pure Land Buddhism and I got Taoism!



* But anyway, when Thomas Merton and the "zen man" D.T.Suzuki met in New York (Merton had got under the radar of his monastic community and escaped into the Pure Land dojo of the kitchen sink) Merton quoted to Suzuki a few words of a South American theologian:-

"Praise be to God that I am not good"

"That is so important" said Suzuki, who although a non-theist, was capable of the conceptual acrobatics necessary to convert words from one Faith into another. He understood Grace.
 
'Amir Alzzalam said:
Then explain the ever-present concept found in all the Abrahamic faiths that if you do not follow scripture/god's word/the rules then you will Rot in HELL, or some form of manipulative punishment.
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How do you balance that against the Abrahamic's infinite love, compassion and mercy of God?
 
Thomas said:
As a matter of interest, have you ever read anything of Marco Pallis?

He's a Tibetan Buddhist and a 'Traditionaliist' (to which I subscribe) and has written an essay Is There Room for "Grace" in Buddhism?
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Yes, I'm familiar with Marco Pallis. I've read his essay that you mention. I also have a small of library of the Perennialists but often find them a bit heavy going.

The essay, as I remember it, revolved around the "touching the earth" mudra, of reception (begging bowl) then the giving back to the earth of what has been received. No middle man involved, which can be a bit off putting to our western individualistic sensitivities.

(The mudra is more often associated with the Buddha claiming Enlightenment)
 
Thomas said:
How do you balance that against the Abrahamic's infinite love, compassion and mercy of God?
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I don't obviously . . . Abrahamism has proved throughout history that it's either Yah Way or the High Way! Following any other religion is wrong and if you do not 'convert' you will perish in HELL for ETERNITY! Where's the Love, Compassion,l and Mercy in that?

Where's the Love Compassion and Mercy anywhere with this god Yahweh?

1 Chronicles 21
-God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people

Deuteronomy 3
-God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. -He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value

Joshua 6
-He orders another attack and the killing of “all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses”
-In (Judges 21) He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead

2 Kings 10:18-27
God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church!

Judges 21:10-24
God has an entire town killed and the virgins repeatedly raped, and then wanted more virgins, so they hid beside the road to kidnap and rape some more.

Numbers 31:7-18
"They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men . . . Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

Deuteronomy 20:10-14
"As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you."

Deuteronomy 21:10-14
"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house . . . After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife."
 
'Amir Alzzalam said:
I don't obviously . . . Abrahamism has proved throughout history that it's either Yah Way or the High Way! Following any other religion is wrong and if you do not 'convert' you will perish in HELL for ETERNITY! Where's the Love, Compassion,l and Mercy in that?

Where's the Love Compassion and Mercy anywhere with this god Yahweh?

1 Chronicles 21
-God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people

Deuteronomy 3
-God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. -He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value

Joshua 6
-He orders another attack and the killing of “all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses”
-In (Judges 21) He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead

2 Kings 10:18-27
God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church!

Judges 21:10-24
God has an entire town killed and the virgins repeatedly raped, and then wanted more virgins, so they hid beside the road to kidnap and rape some more.

Numbers 31:7-18
"They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men . . . Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

Deuteronomy 20:10-14
"As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you."

Deuteronomy 21:10-14
"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house . . . After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife."
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Hi, you forgot Joshua 10:11, surely worth a mention....

"And as they fled before Israel, while they were going down the ascent of Beth-horon, the LORD threw down large stones from heaven on them as far as Azekah, and they died. There were more who died because of the hailstones than the sons of Israel killed with the sword"

This was written round about the same time the Hindu's were writing:-

"Thou art formless; your only form is our knowledge of you"

As the fine old Christian hymn goes, "The heathen in his blindness bows down to wood and stone"

But whatever, if we have the time and the mind to think we have to try and make sense of it all. Even common ground.
 
CircleoftheWay said:
So Universalism. All are saved, all things are reconciled. But what do we do then? It's a very good question, and our questions can hold greater gold than many an "answer", at least I think so.
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But who can say? When every sentient creature has attained Buddahood – what then?

The briefest of toe-dips seems to suggest that once an individual attains such, they go on to help others on the way – but is there no end as such?

It is, as you say, an interesting point. Once the Judgement in Christian terms, is done and dusted, we have 'a new Jerusalem' – but what does everyone do?

How do we (Christians) square that with the idea that if God is Creator, then He creates eternally – and when this creation is done, what then?

The Stoics have their idea of repetitive cycles (God help us) and the Hindu has something similar ...

CircleoftheWay said:
In my own rather stumbling Pure Land Buddhist way of "no-calculation" the "journey itself is home", as the Japanese poet Basho has said. There is no final destination. The road goes on forever. And one of my mentors in zen, Dogen, speaks of the present moment being the only moment, "yet there is a movement toward Buddha", an ever opening intimacy with Reality.
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And there's the dialogue, there is only now, but there is movement. So is the movement eternal?

CircleoftheWay said:
Another aspect is the guy (I can't remember who) who said that he would rather constantly pursue Truth rather than actually find it or have it "revealed" to him. What do you do with it when you have found it? Could any final "truth" even be of words?
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I think the problem of 'what then' is itself a universal one?
 
Thomas said:
I think the problem of 'what then' is itself a universal one?
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I realise that this can seem a "get out" clause, but I find from experience that conclusions are inimical to what Buddhists call the "holy life" - the so called "silence of the Buddha" on all metaphysical questions. The Dharma is the Middle Way, not a position between two extremes but a no-position that supercedes all positions. Our whole existence is born of the opposites, yet what if Reality itself is beyond the opposites? I suppose, simply put, Reality could be lived but not thought.

In that sense the "problem" is of our own conceptual making.

The Holy Life:-

So this holy life.......does not have gain, honour, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of virtue for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakeable deliverance of mind that is the goal of this holy life, its heartwood, and its end.

As I see it we are a becoming. On a journey, which is home.
 
CircleoftheWay said:
I realise that this can seem a "get out" clause, but I find from experience that conclusions are inimical to what Buddhists call the "holy life" - the so called "silence of the Buddha" on all metaphysical questions.
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Hi Thomas, if you are interested, a couple of Theravada Suttas on this, quite fundamental.

Links:-

https://suttacentral.net/mn63/en/su...e&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin


https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN7_51.html

It is a strange thing to me that Stephen Batchelor, one of my favorite Dharma writers, often comes in for a great deal of stick from the doctrinaire for his supposed "agnosticism" yet he often refers to such fundamental texts in many of his books.
 
Thomas said:
Yes. He overcame death.
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We often neglect that Jesus didn't prophecize the aion to come, but he announced that the aion has come. That's 1990 years ago.
Those who are part of it, will not taste death.
The demands for that are extremely difficult, but compensated by forgiveness.
It's about our present, not only future.
 
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