Homosexuality

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Ultimate

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What makes homosexuality so wrong?

Is it the disgust that people (who are against it) feel when they see homosexual activity or the fact that men cannot conceive children?

Or is it the fact that homosexuality isn’t considered the norm?

Lets ask another question, is murder wrong?

I think any intelligent human being would agree so, but what ultimate reason decides that murder is wrong?

Who are you to say or decide that killing another person is not normal, just because you strongly agree with something doesn’t necessarily make it right, how do we define normal?

I guess the obvious answer would be ‘the majority’, I agree it would make sense, but lets create another scenario, in fact lets create a parallel universe for the purpose of discussion; we live in a world where murder is considered the norm, the reason for this is because the vast majority of humans (including respected professionals) enjoy killing, it gives them a sense of joy on par with say eating chocolate (in our universe), is murder then acceptable or considered right?

I guess it would for that universe because lets face it, if you were strongly against it you would have been killed long ago.

Would I be right in saying that ‘right’ is considered right only by the majority?

Murder is wrong, but how would you define it in being wrong if there was no one else to agree with you?

So does that mean that homosexuality is wrong simply because the ‘majority’ disagrees with it, or because of the fact that men can’t get pregnant?

What if in the future somehow (again in theory for the purpose of discussion) nature finds a way for men to conceive and give birth to children, would then the average Joe consider homosexuality ok?

Deep isn’t it.

I think a lot of people dislike/hate homosexuality out of fear, fear of maybe being contaminated by their gayness, which would then turn them or the people around them a homosexual, or fear that their friends or peers will think that they themselves are a homosexual or agree with homosexual activities.

A lot of people find 2 men having sex the most horrid thing a person could wish to see or know about, but what about 2 women making love?

Is that considered ok?

Everything in universe comes down to one thing, love, the love between 2 people, why is the love between 2 consenting adults wrong?

It’s not the same as say ‘abusing a child’, now that’s what I call wrong.

I don’t blame the ignorance of people who are against homosexuality as a whole, because most of them hate it out of fear and they themselves don’t even fully understand why they hate the idea of it.

When were faced with events such as death and war the sexual relations of 2 people don’t really seem as such a big deal.



What I’m trying to say is that what we think is right or wrong doesn’t necessarily make it so, and you would be surprised to what you actually think is right or wrong at the certain point that you are in your ‘existence’.

Let me leave you with a final question for you to think about, would you actually care about homosexuality if you were told you only had 24 hours to live?

Think about it.
 
Dear Ultimate this is something that I wrote on the subject back in 1998.


One of the major problems of our society today is that we are very judgmental. If we go back in history, homosexuality was considered perfectly normal and so it is, as long as there is heart involved. The word ' sin' has been grossly misinterpreted. The original hebrew word translated "as to sin" in the bible actually meant "to miss the mark," the way an arrow misses its target. Wouldn't you agree that humanity has missed the point of creation? What is normal is judged by the society and culture of the day, so who has the right to say that homosexuality is wrong? Surely the answer is more about how we judge and perceive ourselves and others. As long as we take care and nurture the temple that was created for us and do not abuse it, if we have a balanced regard, and give joy to the experience, what possible harm can be done?

Other peoples' journeys are none of your business. What anybody else thinks of you is none of your business. Your business is you — Self. As you come into love and compassion, acceptance and acknowledgement of your own divine self, how can you not do the same for others? There is no good, or bad. It is how we perceive things to be, it is for you to discover that you are a precious jewel in the crown of the universe and this jewel is your divine self, learning to know yourself and be I AM.

Most judgements we make about ourselves and others are based on fear, so what is the belief at the core of the judgement we are making? Fear of being normal, fear of being sinful, fear of being hurt, fear of being judged — guilt. Where there is guilt or judgement, there is a lesson is to be learned. If you do not express yourself in a loving way then this is an expression which is fear-based whether it is sexual or otherwise. Does your sexuality make you fearful, insecure, jealous, possessive, guilty, unhappy? Do you use your sexuality as a power tool to manipulate and control another person. Are you truly coming from heart centre?

When it feels right for both parties, the sexual energy that you exchange will be delightful. When you are truly loving from your heart centre then your sex life will be spontaneous, filled with fun, joy and laughter, it will make you feel fulfilled, satisfied and very happy. It is said that our Aura can usually be described as soft gentle lights surrounding our bodies but during loving sexual encounters it emanates with great sparks like fireworks and rockets. (I was fortunate to witness this once, fireworks of energy shooting across the room).

Know that if you are not having a wondrous relationship with the self then there is no way that you can have a sexually wondrous relationship with someone else. When you meet a kindred soul, a like-minded person there is a powerful resonance of energy between you. When you laugh and feel happy then your body will resonate that which is in your heart, let there be no guilt or expectancy of making love.

Accept and acknowledge your uniqueness, surrender to the self, let go of your fears and that of which you are afraid. Release your fears and recognise that you are a child of the universe and their can be no wrong doing unless you believe it to be so. Be your own judge of what is right and wrong, you have free will and choice — whatever brings you harmony and peace of mind is imperative to your well-being, give to yourself in a loving way and do no harm to others, in thought, word or deed.

Blessings in abundance

Kim xx
 
We have boundaries and rules, if these were to break down can you imagine the nature of life?

For this question I don't know the answer. Homosexuality should be something that should not be discriminated but something that should not be promoted either.
 
I like that PM neutral, just imagine if the world was neutral about everything there would be peace on earth.

GOD bless

Kim xx
 
Postmaster said:
We have boundaries and rules, if these were to break down can you imagine the nature of life?

For this question I don't know the answer. Homosexuality should be something that should not be discriminated but something that should not be promoted either.
Click to expand...
Please tell us why christianity is so opposed to homosexuality?

Why on earth gays are considered to be sinful? If you begin to discriminate God's children according to their sex partner preferences (preference might be a wrong explanation though that does not seem to be associated with the topic, however it is) of course they will stand up and say they dont bellieve in your God! Though will begin to behave as an outlaw to the society.
You cant expect them to love you if you dont love them back...


Come, Come, Whoever You Are

Wonderer, worshipper, lover of leaving.
It doesn't matter.
Ours is not a caravan of despair.
Come, even if you have broken your vow

RUMI
 
what makes homosexuality wrong?

from what i can see, mainly the "eww factor" among some straight people. and the primitive concern over the need for procreation, to assure that one's people do not die out. as homosexual sex does not result in procreation, it may be deemed un natural or against God's wishes for people (especially "His people") to be fruitful and multiply. the "eww factor" combined with concern over non-procreative sex becomes law, and because of the especially important role that sex plays in human life, oftentimes religious law.

is homosexuality and / or homosexual sex wrong? it depends on whom you ask and the context in which you're asking the question. it certainly won't lead to offspring, but does that warrant the rejection of gay individuals and the devalidation of their relationships? personally, no, i don't think so.
 
i think it is the far right wingers and nut case preachers who have the problem, not christian(ity) as a whole. You are going to find that in just about every religion. These preachers whatever religion they are could be the very ones who put on the KKK in secret. I dont trust any of them today.

If two consenting adults want to have a relationship, that is there business. I do think there should be equal rights and same sex marriages should be accepted. I do not think it should be exalted above hetorosexual, but treated the same.
I really doubt there will ever be a problem with procreating. There is plenty of breeding and fornicating.

I dont believe anyone makes someone gay or lesbian, but i cannot explain it. It seems to me that it is just the way it is and I dont question it.
But I dont believe that homosexuality wipes off on others just because you know them because I am not gay and have been around a few but have no interest in it.

There is one part that makes no sense. Why do some women want to act like men and some men want to act like girls? It seems to me if a man wants a relationship with a man, you would think they would want to be with a man because he is a man and not a girl or acting like a girl. Do you see what I mean?
Or do some just act like girls because they think they are girls? That is the part that is confusing for me.


My brother is gay and I love him just the same as I would love any other person. In fact I see that he needs my love even more than my other brothers.

I lost a close friend to Aids and watched him slowly die in the hospital. When he told me earlier that year that he was gay, I accepted him the same as I did before. I did not reject him or run from him. It was one of the saddest times in my life to see him go that way.

At the same time, I see some homosexuals bashing the Christians and so on and so forth , So, I think saying it is just a Christianity thing, is not the case because I claim Jesus as Savior and I dont judge because I am not the judge.
 
because they think we can change, there is some proof that it could be genetic and It's not a choice.
 
What makes homosexuality so wrong?

Well from, as Ive been told, a decidely right wing christian fundamentalist the answer is easy as God.
Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"
1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."


I can't really recall anytime homosexuality was ever considered perfectly normal, but I might have missed sometime. Also just cause something is "considered normal" is that thing good, there was a time when it was considered normal to feed people to lions among many other various things.

Now that being said, you can look at a man and woman. Anyone can tell they were meant to go together, its been that way from the start. Now just cause we think homosexuality is wrong does not give us the right to judge anyone for what they do in their bedroom. Being a father of 2 girls and soon a step father to another girl and boy when it starts coming into my living room and their schools then yes I have a right to speak against it.

So I have to say it isnt the homosexuals I have a problem with its the minority that has to thrust it in everyones face and wants it taught to be normal and everything.
 
well thanks for that dor, when I'm getting my head beat in by a crowbar I'll be keeping that in mind, if you don't teach it's normal then they WILL think it's wrong and I can look forward to a caved-in future
 
I just want to add to Dors post that its not the homosexual thats wrong in the eyes of God.. its the act of it. Its something that God wants to work on with you in order to help you to live a righteous life.. The problem these days is that its taught to be a normal act and to God its not a normal act.. this is where you need to put God on the throne and not live according to the world. Christians are taught to love the person and to hate the sin.. we are all sinners and a homosexuals sin is no greater than ours.

God can change anything.
 
Ok dont even know how to respond to that. But I distinctly remember saying we are not supposed to judge you because of your actions. I never condemned anyone I said an act was wrong. Same as any other act would be deemed wrong but doesnt mean Im going to go out and bash anyones head in or teach my kids to bash anyones head in. Now did I say I would fight to keep it outta my kids school yes I did but not in a violent physical way by calling, writing, homeschooling yes. You said if we dont teach it is normal they will think it is wrong. Well show many any place that proves it is normal and I might change my mind about that. One little question teaching something that in itself seems against the very laws of nature as normal where would we draw the line, are we supposed to teach that the things NAMBLA consider normal to truely be normal just so people dont think it is wrong, or any of the other thousands of things people want to do that.

People should not judge people cause they are homosexual or heterosexual. Same as they shouldnt judge them cause they are American, French, Greek, African, Japanese...etc. Or judge based on religious difference.

Very clear we are suppose to love one another, no where does it say we have to love the acts people do just the person themselves.

Also you should have figured posting on a board as varied as this one at least one person was going to say the act was wrong. And I spoke as I pointed out from my right-wing CF view.
 
I think we should subtitle every "Homosexuality" thread with "Opening Can of Worms". :)

If I may also point out, as in Dor's quotes, there is a lot more than just homosexual acts that are chided. So is it fair to say that the issue of homosexuality itself gets too much attention on its own, and thus overwhelms the actual point being made in such quotes?
 
TBH Brian.. the reason I believe the homosexuality issue is such a big deal is because noone wants to think that something that seems natural to a person could be in any way unnatural. We all know that stealing murdering lying etc.. is a "sin" but who wants to think that something as very basic as their sexual preference is wrong. If pedophiles thought that their sexual prefrence was natural Im sure that would be an even bigger issue than this one. (BTW im not comparing the two so please dont jump on me about it.) The reason why Christians have a belief on this subject is because its listed in the bible which is our main source of refrence in our life.

We see the same thing when Anti-American/Bush/Christians post their beliefs all we can do is refer to the bible for our support. Those posts are highly critical and most arent friendly but we try not to attack back in defense because what purpose would that serve? You probably dont even know how often Ive censored my response to a few of the members that greatly offended me. I just put it to ignorance and intolerance and If I cant get them to see it from my point of view then they probably wont.

:)
 
1. Same sex relationships have existed since the dawn of human historical time and in all likelihood from before that.
2. If this is so, why does anyone have to be judgemental about it from any particular viewpoint, yea or nay, it being a fact of human existence, and in other animal species?
3. Religious and moral pronouncements by certain groups of human beings are just that... affectively based judgements and pronouncements. They have no bearing or necessity upon the truth of the condition.
These 'human' pronoucements have also differed throughout human history. There is no ultimate moral judgement... because those moral judgements have always varied from nation to nation and group to group for a whole variety of so-called reasons.
4. Confusing the issue with other moral attitudes towards paedophilia is not wise either, because again an extended historical view tends to demonstrate that any girl or boy of biological maturity is of 'use' to the tribe or group or family as soon as they are physically capable. Juliet may have been only fourteen, but one presumes Shakespeare intended for her to be considered nubile/marriageable!
5. So far as I observe matters, same-sex relationships have as much justification as opposite sex relationships, and biology and history seem to agree.
6. What seems to be NOT agreed is the moral aspect, as that has varied so much, in many different societies.

Licentiousness and brutality and greed and selfishness and lust, etc., are different questions.
They do need moral discussion, whether one is homosexual, bisexual or any other variety!

Surely respect for each other as individuals who are precious is the real necessity?
 
"Surely respect for each other as individuals who are precious is the real necessity?"

Once again.. Its not the person its the sin..

The bible like I said is our source of reference.. We do not listen to the words of men because alot of those words contradict the bible. Sin is everywhere.. that sin is no greater than any other sin.. if you commit one sin you commit them all in the eyes of God. By the grace of God we are given redemption through Jesus Christ. The problem with sexual immorality.. which includes promiscuity and homosexuality is that in todays society its considered normal to do these things...One who is promiscuous can change it with the help of God.. Whereas homosexuals feel that the feelings and desires they have are natural and why should they repent and ask God for help to change it.. Its a rebellion and a clear refusal to accept what God ordained. That is why they are given up to a reprobate mind because once you let one sin go willfully you are letting all sin in to corrupt.
 
I am so sorry to disagree with you, FaithfulServant, but do you never question your own blind faith in the Bible?
Do you actually understand the Bible is simply a collection and selective collation of some ancient texts written by human beings, who actually contradict each other very often? Most copies don't even include major texts like that of Thomas!

I sometimes wonder, as someone who has spent over forty years reading and re-reading the Bible, the Koran and other great collations from major religions, if people actually ever understand what is written, even if it is only in translation. They always seem to approach them through a miasma of confused affective responses and prejudgements handed-down to them and fail to see what they actually say.

You say you do NOT listen to the words of men, yet here you are referring to the words of men who wrote the Biblical texts, often more for political and social purposes rather than spiritual, and therefore you are contradicting yourself. Is that not inconsistent in the extreme? I am sure it must have occurred to you at various times.

You see, what you say is ordained by God, is just what you prefer and affirm as part of your personal faith. there is no actual evidence that a God has ordained anything beyond your own subjective preferences you have validated for yourself, within yourself... and because you do that, that doesn't somehow make what is said true to anyone else.

I AM NOT criticising that, or you, for believing whatever you wish to believe; all I am asking is why you do not question, within yourself, the nature of those beliefs and what you base them upon.

Declaring something does not automatically mean it is so.

Do you really therefore discount what a Muslim might say, with equal justification, or a Jew, or a Jain, or a Sikh, or any other deeply religious person?
Are you simply going to affirm that they are heathens, ignoramuses, misled individuals who haven't seen 'your' light?
I suggest that is demeaning to them and denigrates their individual faiths and makes you seem rather overly proud of yourself.

You claim the Bible has spoken on such matters as homosexuality and what could be called promiscuity, but does that mean or make it 'true'... just because the Bible says so in your reading and interpretation of it?

Far from seeing 'sin' everywhere, I prefer to concentrate on the many good works of millions of ordinary folk in trying to live their lives peaceably.

Sin is often simply in the eyes of the beholder, and something that is used as a tool by some people to mould others in their image, or to placate a vengeful God... or blatantly as an agent of social and political control. Sin is a manmade concept, not something divine in origin... fostered in some myth like a Garden of Eden scenario.
 
Faithfulservant said:
You probably dont even know how often Ive censored my response to a few of the members that greatly offended me. I just put it to ignorance and intolerance and If I cant get them to see it from my point of view then they probably wont.
Click to expand...
I've suspected this may be the case from yourself, and also a few other members suggest restraint at times. As always, it's much appreciated. :)
 
--- and please, in all friendliness, faithfulServant, consider the words of Hoffer:

""A doctrine insulates the devout not only against the realities around them but also against their own selves. The fanatical believer is not conscious of his envy, malice, pettiness and dishonesty. There is a wall of words between his consciousness and his real self"

Hoffer.

;)
 
It is also useful, I think, to consider these words by the famous writer Milan Kundera.
He once said in an interview:

"The stupidity of people comes from having an answer to everything. The wisdom... comes from having a question for everything."

The easiest way to become a slave is to say I have blind faith that things will get better - or worse!

All I ever ask of people is to question and think for themselves....

The heart (and soul?) is the seat of all spiritual responses and religious belief, and the heart is notorious for misleading us.... as are false logical processes corrupted by invalid premisses.
:)
 
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