Origin of Creator-God religions

Dhammañāṇa Bhikkhu

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from the Brahmajāla Sutta: The Brahmā Net

Partial Eternalism​


“There are some contemplatives & brahmans who are partially eternalists and partially non-eternalists, who proclaim a partially eternal and partially non-eternal self & cosmos on four grounds.(7) And with reference to what, coming from what, are these honorable contemplatives & brahmans partially eternalists and partially non-eternalists who proclaim a partially eternal and partially non-eternal self & cosmos on four grounds?


5. “There ultimately comes a time when, with the passing of a long stretch of time, this cosmos devolves. When the cosmos is devolving, beings for the most part head toward the Radiant (brahmās). There they stay: mind-made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, coursing through the air, established in beauty for a long stretch of time. Then there ultimately comes a time when, with the passing of a long stretch of time, this cosmos evolves. When the cosmos is evolving, an empty Brahmā palace appears. Then a certain being — from the exhaustion of his life span or the exhaustion of his merit(8) — falls from the company of the Radiant and re-arises in the empty Brahmā palace. And there he still stays mind-made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, coursing through the air, established in beauty for a long stretch of time.


“After dwelling there alone for a long time, he experiences displeasure & agitation: ‘O, if only other beings would come to this world!’


“Then other beings, through the ending of their life span or the ending of their merit, fall from the company of the Radiant and reappear in the Brahmā palace, in the company of that being. And there they still stay mind-made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, coursing through the air, established in beauty for a long stretch of time.


“Then the thought occurs to the being who reappeared first: ‘I am Brahmā, the Great Brahmā, the Conqueror, the Unconquered, the All-Seeing, All-Powerful, the Sovereign Lord, the Maker, Creator, Chief, Appointer & Ruler, Father of All That Have Been & Shall Be.(9) These beings were created by me. Why is that? First the thought occurred to me, “O, if only other beings would come to this world!” And thus my direction of will brought these beings to this world.’ As for the beings who reappeared later, this thought occurs to them: ‘This is Brahmā… Father of All That Have Been & Shall Be. We were created by this Brahmā. Why is that? We saw that he appeared here before, while we appeared after.’ The being who reappeared first is of longer life span, more beautiful, & more influential, while the beings who reappeared later are of shorter life span, less beautiful, & less influential.


“Now, there is the possibility, monks, that a certain being, having fallen from that company, comes to this world. Having come to this world, he goes forth from the home life into homelessness. Having gone forth from the home life into homelessness, he — through ardency, through exertion, through commitment, through heedfulness, through right attention — touches an awareness- concentration such that in his concentrated mind he recollects that former life, but nothing prior to that. He says, ‘We were created by Brahmā, the Great Brahmā, the Conqueror, the Unconquered, the All-Seeing, All-Powerful, the Sovereign Lord, the Maker, Creator, Chief, Appointer and Ruler, Father of All That Have Been and Shall Be. He is constant, permanent, eternal, not subject to change, and will remain just like that for eternity. But we who have been created by him — inconstant, impermanent, short-lived, subject to falling — have come to this world.’


“This is the first basis — with reference to which, coming from which — some contemplatives & brahmans are partially eternalists and partially non-eternalists who proclaim a partially eternal and partially non-eternal self & cosmos.


6. “As for the second: With reference to what, coming from what, are contemplatives & brahmans partially eternalists and partially non-eternalists who proclaim a partially eternal and partially non-eternal self & cosmos?


“There are, monks, devas called Corrupted by Play.(10) They spend an excessive amount of time indulging in the delights of laughter & play. Because they spend an excessive amount of time indulging in the delights of laughter & play, their mindfulness becomes muddled. Because of muddled mindfulness, they fall from that company of devas.


“Now, there is the possibility, monks, that a certain being, having fallen from that company, comes to this world. Having come to this world, he goes forth from the home life into homelessness. Having gone forth from the home life into homelessness, he — through ardency, through exertion, through commitment, through heedfulness, through right attention — touches an awareness- concentration such that in his concentrated mind he recollects that former life, but nothing prior to that. He says, ‘Those honorable devas who are not corrupted by play don’t spend an excessive amount of time indulging in the delights of laughter & play. Because they don’t spend an excessive amount of time indulging in the delights of laughter & play, their mindfulness doesn’t become muddled. Because of unmuddled mindfulness, they don’t fall from that company. They are constant, permanent, eternal, not subject to change, and will remain just like that for eternity. But those of us who were corrupted by play spent an excessive amount of time indulging in the delights of laughter & play. Because we spent an excessive amount of time indulging in the delights of laughter & play, our mindfulness became muddled. Because of muddled mindfulness, we fell from that company and — inconstant, impermanent, short-lived, subject to falling — have come to this world.’


“This is the second basis — with reference to which, coming from which — some contemplatives & brahmans are partially eternalists and partially non-eternalists who proclaim a partially eternal and partially non-eternal self & cosmos.


7. “As for the third: With reference to what, coming from what, are contemplatives & brahmans partially eternalists and partially non-eternalists who proclaim a partially eternal and partially non-eternal self & cosmos?


“There are, monks, devas called Corrupted by Mind. They spend an excessive amount of time staring at one another.(11) Because they spend an excessive amount of time staring at one another, their minds become corrupted toward one another. Because they are corrupted in mind toward one another, they grow exhausted in body & exhausted in mind. They fall from that company of devas.


“Now, there is the possibility, monks, that a certain being, having fallen from that company, comes to this world. Having come to this world, he goes forth from the home life into homelessness. Having gone forth from the home life into homelessness, he — through ardency, through exertion, through commitment, through heedfulness, through right attention — touches an awareness- concentration such that in his concentrated mind he recollects that former life, but nothing prior to that. He says, ‘Those honorable devas who are not corrupted in mind don’t spend an excessive amount of time staring at one another. Because they don’t spend an excessive amount of time staring at one another, their minds don’t become corrupted toward one another. Because they are uncorrupted in mind toward one another, they don’t grow exhausted in body or exhausted in mind. They don’t fall from that company. They are constant, permanent, eternal, not subject to change, and will remain just like that for eternity. But those of us who were corrupted in mind spent an excessive amount of time staring at one another. Because we spent an excessive amount of time staring at one another, our minds became corrupted toward one another. Because we were corrupted in mind toward one another, we grew exhausted in body & exhausted in mind. We fell from that company and — inconstant, impermanent, short-lived, subject to falling — have come to this world.’


“This is the third basis — with reference to which, coming from which — some contemplatives & brahmans are partially eternalists and partially non-eternalists who proclaim a partially eternal and partially non-eternal self & cosmos.


8. “As for the fourth: With reference to what, coming from what, are contemplatives & brahmans partially eternalists and partially non-eternalists who proclaim a partially eternal and partially non-eternal self & cosmos?


“There is the case where a certain contemplative or brahman is a logician, an inquirer. He states his own improvisation, hammered out by logic, deduced from his inquiries: ‘That which is called “eye” & “ear” & “nose” & “tongue” & “body”: That self is inconstant, impermanent, non-eternal, subject to change. But that which is called “mind” or “intellect” or “consciousness”: That self is constant, permanent, eternal, not subject to change, and will remain just like that for eternity.’(12)


“This is the fourth basis — with reference to which, coming from which — some contemplatives & brahmans are partially eternalists and partially non-eternalists who proclaim a partially eternal and partially non-eternal self & cosmos.


“These, monks, are the contemplatives & brahmans who are partially eternalists and partially non-eternalists, who proclaim a partially eternal and partially non-eternal self & cosmos on four grounds. And whatever contemplatives & brahmans who partially eternalists and partially non-eternalists, who proclaim a partially eternal and partially non-eternal self & cosmos, they all do so on one or another of these four grounds. There is nothing outside of this.


“With regard to this, the Tathāgata discerns that ‘These standpoints, thus seized, thus grasped at, lead to such & such a destination, to such & such a state in the world beyond.’ That the Tathāgata discerns. And he discerns what is higher than that. And yet, discerning that, he does not grasp at it. And as he is not grasping at it, unbinding [nibbuti] is experienced right within. Knowing, as they have come to be, the origination, ending, allure, & drawbacks of feelings, along with the escape from feelings, the Tathāgata, monks — through lack of clinging/sustenance — is released.


“These, monks, are the dhammas — deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise — that the Tathāgata proclaims, having directly known & realized them for himself, and that those who, rightly speaking in praise of the Tathāgata in line with what is factual, would speak.
 
OK, So this story attempts to explain where everything comes from and where the creator came from and where he dwells, and where we come from etc.
Now, this is a story that I suppose someone wrote down some time ago.
Does this person have any evidence that what he wrote down is scientific true?

You see, the scientific method is the achievement of the Christian West.
No other religion achieved what the Christians in the West made happen.
It is still a mystery to some modern day philosophers on why the Chinese or the Indian did not attain what the West did under Christian enlightenment.
The Islamic claim of scientific achievements can also be wiped from the black board after Muslims scholars realized that what science taught about the origins of the Universe, was in total contradiction with the Quran and they had Islamic movements that crushed any studies into the modern sciences.
Why the Arabic World Turned Away from Science — The New Atlantis.

In short, It was Christians, and especially Protestant Christians who took the world into the scientific method we have today. Even though Atheists would vehemently disagree, until they discover Kant and Steno to name but a few.
 
@OupaPiet -

Apparently your knowledge of ancient Buddhist writing is very limited. Not that I’m surprised. Otherwise you would not have posed the question you did in your post.
 
OK, I agree. My know;edge of Buddhism is very limited.
I am asking as a layman on Buddhism.
Does Buddhism have any scientific agreement wit scientific knowledge?
 
OK, I agree. My know;edge of Buddhism is very limited.
I am asking as a layman on Buddhism.
Does Buddhism have any scientific agreement wit scientific knowledge?
No. It's about real evidenz and void of extremes, good householder. About Noble Truth.
(and it's not wrong to read the topic's intro, so to focus on the topic)
 
OK, So does Budhism tell us about the origins of the Universe, and are there any scientific support on those claims made in ancient times?
What would be the use of it? It would't solve good householders real problem.
Beings wander on from birth, aging, sickness to death, driven by craving and not-knowing, a beginning point can't be imagined.
So it's about coming to something real evident.

And again, good to go with a topic.
 
What would be the use of it? It would't solve good householders real problem.
Beings wander on from birth, aging, sickness to death, driven by craving and not-knowing, a beginning point can't be imagined.
So it's about coming to something real evident.

And again, good to go with a topic.
True.
But don't you think a lot of talking about, what should be regarded as great moral standards should at least have a solid foundation?
Let me explain.
I read your first post and it speaks about space that appeared, time that developed, gods coming into existance, then it teaches moral standards.
I can do the same!
Why should I follow Buddha's way of morality, in stead of the moral standards of Jesus?
Buddha is dead, Jesus is alive.
Buddha left his wife and family to seek the answer, Jesus gave His life to show us the answer of everlasting life.
Perhaps you can tell me why I should follow Buddha ISO Jesus.
 
I'd have to ask for an explanation of 'partial eternalism'...
 
It would be an interesting exploration to reconcile all the creation stories given across the many religions, we may find that each provides keys to greater understanding.

When I read the link you have posted, my mind is inclusive of the others, so I would assume I am seeing a different interpretation of those wrirings than you may have.

This is "The Tablet of the Universe" by Abdul'baha, which also explains the origin of all the Names and Religion of God.

Basically, from what I see in these creation stories, is that all the Names and Religions of God are infinite in number, expanding across all the known and unknown worlds of God. All placed in order, set in motion and contained as per God's Will.

What would you like to discuss?

Regards Tony
 
Does good Tony has any question?
I have many questions that I can ask. The questions would be about humanity and its oneness.

But what was you OP for?

My OP title would read a little differently, it would be "Origin of Creation - God Given Religions.

I assume that frame of reference is a little different from yours, or is it compatible?

Regards Tony
 
To make one understanding how such views come into existence, on which bases those ideas are proclaimed, good Tony.
The search that everyone who wants meaning in life will explore Dhammañāṇa Bhikkhu.

I see the Buddha (s) came to show us the meaning and that the Buddha always brings this meaning, even though the Buddha (s) have come in many names and in many ages.

Our God given ability can transform our mind from the animal self, into our capacity that is not bound in time and whos potential is eternal.

Regards Tony
 
The search that everyone who wants meaning in life will explore Dhammañāṇa Bhikkhu.
Who ever whould investigate, wouldn't find any refuge there.
I see the Buddha (s) came to show us the meaning and that the Buddha always brings this meaning, even though the Buddha (s) have come in many names and in many ages.
It's seldom that a Buddha appears in the world, it's seldom to meet a Sublime Buddhas disciples, seldom to be able to listen to his teachings.
Our God given ability can transform our mind from the animal self, into our capacity that is not bound in time and whos potential is eternal.

Regards Tony
How would a God, even if a Noble One, do such? How could one meet a Brahma?
 
OK, So does Budhism tell us about the origins of the Universe, and are there any scientific support on those claims made in ancient times?
I studiet cosmology by reading all mythologies of many nations. The story goes, that there must have been sadness. And that is how creation begins. Means psychological and not phisical. The soul was existing before the phisical creation it means. So it starts, ' I cry, I weep and then created creation into existing because of my sadness. The Vishnu is the symbol with the rudraksha chain of the rudraksha tree of sadness , comparing with our weeping willow.
 
I studiet cosmology by reading all mythologies of many nations. The story goes, that there must have been sadness. And that is how creation begins. Means psychological and not phisical. The soul was existing before the phisical creation it means. So it starts, ' I cry, I weep and then created creation into existing because of my sadness. The Vishnu is the symbol with the rudraksha chain of the rudraksha tree of sadness , comparing with our weeping willow.
If you mean this to be a poem, it is lovely
 
OK, I agree. My know;edge of Buddhism is very limited.
I am asking as a layman on Buddhism.
Does Buddhism have any scientific agreement wit scientific knowledge?
I seem to remember when I was in college (early 90s) hearing people say that discoveries in psychology and in theoretical physics were lining up with a lot of ideas already in Buddhist philosophy. I don't remember the argument they made for it. But apparently it's a thing that gets some attention: Buddhism and science - Wikipedia
 
I seem to remember when I was in college (early 90s) hearing people say that discoveries in psychology and in theoretical physics were lining up with a lot of ideas already in Buddhist philosophy. I don't remember the argument they made for it. But apparently it's a thing that gets some attention: Buddhism and science - Wikipedia
People try in all ways to build houses of what's actually given to leave them... Wikipedianer (the folk believing in Brahma Wikis creation) trying to grasps the Dhamma is like making a duck a chicken. Only what feeds the cemeteries would be recognized as good feed. How it comes to such believe has been declared in the OP, good householder.
 
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