Did Christ Say Be Ye Transformed?

[talib-al-kalim]

If so, how can that jive with the theology of substitutional atonement in which it is believed he and his Father took away our enslavement to sin?
Wouldn’t Christ have said “Let me transform you?” if the standard ransom payment thing were true?
Seems fair to say instead that he showed us spiritual growth examples and tools that we have to emulate and use in order to outgrow our brokenness (our enslavement to sin) and move towards wholeness. This might be termed “transformational atonement?”

Jesus said that we should be reborn in the spirit, having a spiritual personality besides the body which, in contrast to the body, is immortal.
There's no transformation. The body grows and perishes, the spirit won't perish if we take heed, but it can grow (parables of the seed)

I reject the theology of substitutional atonement.


I think that his teachings don't support the phrase "Be ye transformed". As it is in Kingjamesish, it looks like a quote. If know any tradition supporting it, which is directly attributed to Jesus, please quote it.

 

[otherbrother]

I'm not disagreeing with what you say, other than I don't agree we can 'do it ourselves' (the whole thrust of spiritualities asserts that), or that spiritual growth is a mechanical process ... it simply isn't the same order of thing. It's not quite like photosynthesis.

One might say "It is us, but we are not it" – 'in Him we live and move and have our being', but that being could be so much more ...

Certainly not “self” as an individual object/being. And we DO tend to identify with that lesser self.

 

[otherbrother]

More than that, as Christ represents the unity of Divine and human.

This (that I said earlier) would be a skill or process that would, in effect, re-create such “unity.” Question is, can we DO what I am describing below? When we let go and let God, are we doing what I describe below. I tend to think it is the case, that we are doing something like this:
“Imagine being able to have mental activity of some sort from the point/level of the Higgs Boson particle. It would seem to be a spiritual perspective of being. And that type of consciousness would likely increase the quantum coherence (wave-richness) of the physical being. Anointing it. Making it Christlike.”
When Paul suggested we set our minds on God, our first thought is that we see what directives God gives us to follow from the Bible.
But Paul’s concept of salvation by faith seems to run deeper than that. It is more like an inner alignment with God, setting something inside that is analogous to a radio frequency “tuner” close enough to God’s channel to pick up (what David Bohm and Basil Hiley, in their book The Undivided Universe, called) “active information” that simultaneously informs and guides.

 

[otherbrother]

Jesus said that we should be reborn in the spirit, having a spiritual personality besides the body which, in contrast to the body, is immortal.
There's no transformation. The body grows and perishes, the spirit won't perish if we take heed, but it can grow (parables of the seed)

I reject the theology of substitutional atonement.


I think that his teachings don't support the phrase "Be ye transformed". As it is in Kingjamesish, it looks like a quote. If know any tradition supporting it, which is directly attributed to Jesus, please quote it.

I believe you are right. It was Paul, not Christ, that said it, and, as Thomas pointed out, wasn’t emphasizing the human mind’s potential to reset, so much as God’s potential to transform us if we open up to, or align with, a beyond sort of Divinity.
Nonetheless, I would argue that if the human mind is able to shift attention like that, then it must also assist in changing DIRECTION, in a way that helps rebuild the character of a person, helps them be transformed. That is, the human can, and must, actively PARTICIPATE in the transformation.
So, although I got the details all wrong (analogous to violating the letter of the “law”), I think I did get the spirit of Paul’s and Christ’s “law”/point right.
My main desire is to reduce the negative side effect of authoritarianism that creeps into worshipers of a Beyond type of God. Christ was supposed to close the gap, to allow intimacy with that which was previously out of our reach. I believe Christ actually represented a God-made FUNCTION within us to not only achieve such intimacy, but to actively engage in our own transformation— not as little selves, but as Larger Self children of God.

 

[otherbrother]

Again, this does not adequately describe the relation of body to soul in Abrahamic terms: there is soul (psyche), there is body (soma) and there is flesh (sarx)

Your interpretation of Abrahamic beliefs about soul actually supports my main (attempt at a) point here. If soul is not merely an artifact wholeness, but is in some real sense a separate thing, then it is a tool we can pick up and use in order to increase the unity of human and Divine, to (according to whatever degree of mastery we achieve at using that tool) be more like Christ.

 

[otherbrother]

analogous to a radio frequency “tuner” close enough to God’s channe

Analogous to SETTING a radio “tuner” close enough to God’s channel… that is

 

[otherbrother]

We have it in ourselves to change and grow according to the limits of our nature ... but, Christ and St Paul is talking about a change and growth beyond our nature

All I really care about is whether we have the potential to grow. If the potential is actualized by another dimension, I’m perfectly fine with that. As long as we are appropriately, healthily, constructively, EMPOWERED to grow spiritually. I suppose you could say the butterfly is a different being than the larva or the chrysalis. But that seems more like a matter of semantics.
I’d rather see us do it (spiritual growth) right but get it wrong (the facts) than to get it right and do it wrong.
Has anyone written a book about the psychological messages of the Bible?
If so, I want to read it.
If not, I feel called to at least consider writing it.

 

[talib-al-kalim]

I believe you are right. It was Paul, not Christ, that said it, and, as Thomas pointed out, wasn’t emphasizing the human mind’s potential to reset, so much as God’s potential to transform us if we open up to, or align with, a beyond sort of Divinity.
Nonetheless, I would argue that if the human mind is able to shift attention like that, then it must also assist in changing DIRECTION, in a way that helps rebuild the character of a person, helps them be transformed. That is, the human can, and must, actively PARTICIPATE in the transformation.
So, although I got the details all wrong (analogous to violating the letter of the “law”), I think I did get the spirit of Paul’s and Christ’s “law”/point right.
My main desire is to reduce the negative side effect of authoritarianism that creeps into worshipers of a Beyond type of God. Christ was supposed to close the gap, to allow intimacy with that which was previously out of our reach. I believe Christ actually represented a God-made FUNCTION within us to not only achieve such intimacy, but to actively engage in our own transformation— not as little selves, but as Larger Self children of God.

Is Paul teaching a transformation in this physical life, or before entering the perfect Heaven?

There's a hadith saying,
Abu Sa’eed al Khudree (رضى الله عنه) reports that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه و سلم) said, “when the believers cross the Hellfire, they will be stopped at a small arched bridge (Qantarah) before entering the paradise and will be given retribution for injustices between them until they become purified. (Then) they will be permitted to enter Jannah. So, by the One in Whose Hands is my soul, they will know their way to their homes in Jannah, better than they know their ways to their homes in this world.”

 

[otherbrother]

Is Paul teaching a transformation in this physical life, or before entering the perfect Heaven?

There's a hadith saying,
Abu Sa’eed al Khudree (رضى الله عنه) reports that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه و سلم) said, “when the believers cross the Hellfire, they will be stopped at a small arched bridge (Qantarah) before entering the paradise and will be given retribution for injustices between them until they become purified. (Then) they will be permitted to enter Jannah. So, by the One in Whose Hands is my soul, they will know their way to their homes in Jannah, better than they know their ways to their homes in this world.”

Reminds me of the belief behind the Tibetan Book of the Dead, the importance of being mentally prepared for transition after death

 

[spiritualbee]

Jesus said that we should be reborn in the spirit, having a spiritual personality besides the body which, in contrast to the body, is immortal.
There's no transformation. The body grows and perishes, the spirit won't perish if we take heed, but it can grow (parables of the seed)

I reject the theology of substitutional atonement.


I think that his teachings don't support the phrase "Be ye transformed". As it is in Kingjamesish, it looks like a quote. If know any tradition supporting it, which is directly attributed to Jesus, please quote it.

Jesus Christ could regret some things he said also. He is alive. So we can not talk behind his back ofcourse. But take this in notion.

 

[Thomas]

All I really care about is whether we have the potential to grow.

Yes we do, into the fullness of our individual and collective human natures, and, by the grace of God, transcend them.

If the potential is actualized by another dimension, I’m perfectly fine with that. As long as we are appropriately, healthily, constructively, EMPOWERED to grow spiritually. I suppose you could say the butterfly is a different being than the larva or the chrysalis. But that seems more like a matter of semantics.

I'd rather say larva/chrysalis/butterfly is the same as zygote/blastocyst/embryo/fetus – but the salient point is that other dimension knows us better than we know ourselves.

When it comes to terms like 'appropriate', 'healthy' 'constructive' and 'empowered' – then humanity has a very, very poor track record.

I’d rather see us do it (spiritual growth) right but get it wrong (the facts) ...

I'd say all authentic spiritual growth is the realisation of that – that the 'facts' are never 'it'.

than to get it right and do it wrong.

I'd say any landing you walk away from is a good landing ... and again, if one thibnks one's 'doing it', the odds are one's getting it wrong.

The serious side of this is why the need for some order of guru/director/staretz ... because the self-inflicted damage of getting it all wrong, but believing one is doing it right, can be tragically catastrophic.

+++

Has anyone written a book about the psychological messages of the Bible?

LOL, Shedloads!

When it comes to 'spiritual development', the bookshelves are full of books written by people who've gleaned this and that from here and there. Finding something by an authentic wayfarer is a tad more involved.

Something more apposite might be Thomas Merton's "The Seven Storey Mountain" or its inspiration, "The Interior Castle" by St Teresa of Ávila.

In a Christian context, the start is books on the life of prayer.

Another useful ally would be the books of the Buddhist Matthieu Ricard.

 

[talib-al-kalim]

Jesus Christ could regret some things he said also. He is alive. So we can not talk behind his back ofcourse. But take this in notion.

We have no knowledge on all this. We don't know whether he can now regret what he said (of course, it's possible that he can, but in this case, I don't see a reason for that). We can only know what has been written about what he said, and speculate on the authenticity of the teaching (I opt for good reliability here). It doesn't make sense to prohibit considering the message we received, saying, he might have changed his mind.

 

[otherbrother]

Yes we do, into the fullness of our individual and collective human natures, and, by the grace of God, transcend them.


I'd rather say larva/chrysalis/butterfly is the same as zygote/blastocyst/embryo/fetus – but the salient point is that other dimension knows us better than we know ourselves.

When it comes to terms like 'appropriate', 'healthy' 'constructive' and 'empowered' – then humanity has a very, very poor track record.


I'd say all authentic spiritual growth is the realisation of that – that the 'facts' are never 'it'.


I'd say any landing you walk away from is a good landing ... and again, if one thibnks one's 'doing it', the odds are one's getting it wrong.

The serious side of this is why the need for some order of guru/director/staretz ... because the self-inflicted damage of getting it all wrong, but believing one is doing it right, can be tragically catastrophic.

+++


LOL, Shedloads!

When it comes to 'spiritual development', the bookshelves are full of books written by people who've gleaned this and that from here and there. Finding something by an authentic wayfarer is a tad more involved.

Something more apposite might be Thomas Merton's "The Seven Storey Mountain" or its inspiration, "The Interior Castle" by St Teresa of Ávila.

In a Christian context, the start is books on the life of prayer.

Another useful ally would be the books of the Buddhist Matthieu Ricard.

Thanks for those good suggestions. I’ve read some of Merton’s works, so, out of comfort and trust, I’ll probably begin with it.

 

[otherbrother]

I'd say any landing you walk away from is a good landing ... and again, if one thibnks one's 'doing it', the odds are one's getting it wrong.

The serious side of this is why the need for some order of guru/director/staretz ... because the self-inflicted damage of getting it all wrong, but believing one is doing it right, can be tragically catastrophic.

I love your insistence about the need for us not to allow specific thoughts to get in the way of (a theoretical?) whole-mind awareness. And that may well mean we need assistance from a dimension deeper than we normally identify with and operate from.

 

[otherbrother]

I love your insistence about the need for us not to allow specific thoughts to get in the way of (a theoretical?) whole-mind awareness. And that may well mean we need assistance from a dimension deeper than we normally identify with and operate from.

If I would die tomorrow, please keep this as a memorial/souvenir:

Photo of a Beautiful Mind

How many questions
Have I asked that were loaded?
How many times
Has my head exploded?
But the grief I was given
I had goaded.
Finally, my firmament
of knowing eroded.

 

[otherbrother]

If I would die tomorrow, please keep this as a memorial/souvenir:

Photo of a Beautiful Mind

How many questions
Have I asked that were loaded?
How many times
Has my head exploded?
But the grief I was given
I had goaded.
Finally, my firmament
of knowing eroded.

Revision in line 5-6:
But I got no grief
I hadn’t goaded.

 

[otherbrother]

Revision in line 5-6:
But I got no grief
I hadn’t goaded.

Final draft (sorry for the confusion!):


Photo of a Beautiful Mind



How many questions

Have I asked that were loaded?

How many times

Has my head exploded?

But the grief I got

I had goaded.

Finally, my firmament

of knowing eroded.