History of Philosophy | 18 Middle and Neo-Platonism

As I have said, the idea that scripture need be 'self evident' is mistaken.
Right... which makes me think that the idea of a "correct" interpretation is mistaken as well.

If Scripture were infallibly self-evident, I'd say there is a proof of God, right there.
I'd like that.
By resort to Tradition.
Then there's the Wesleyan Quadrilateral of Scripture, Tradition, Reason, and Experience
Which is really what everybody is using but they are transparent about it.

If someone disagrees with tradition, as they often do, they end up forming new traditions.
Otherwise you're just stuck with the idea that "well, the church said it means this, so I have to go along with it, though I don't see it at all."
Ignoring your own take on things.
Until you can't anymore.
 
Rabbi Tovia Singer thinks the entire New Testament was simply added "glued onto" as he says, the Hebrew Bible. He doesn't agree with the reasons for that.
LOL, He would!

Different canons exist in some churches too --there's the Catholic and Orthodox Apocrypha -- did the Protestants wrongly removed things?
Well they did so because it logically followed their 'Sola Scriptura' position. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches don't dismiss Tradition or the Fathers.

Is it true that Martin Luther almost threw out the Book of Revelation? Was he wrong, or were the original committees wrong?
Well Luther wanted to sideline those books he considered not to be 'inspired' texts – Revelations was a very late choice and many considered it derivative more than inspired.

I know Luther also 'disputed' books that taught a theology different to his own, so on that basis I'd say he's 'wrong'.

is it the Ethiopic church that has something like 84 books of scripture ... Did they add something they should not have? Did others omit something they should not have? Are they answers to these things actually knowable?
I'd say the answer lies more in the historical process than in the idea of God saying, "That's in, that's out."
The Shepherd of Hermas is out, The Song of the Pearl is out.

Often, the question of attribution is raised with regard to canonical validity. Was it known to the Early Church? Books that appear ion the 3rd % 4th centuries, 'out of the blue', as it were, were deemed not canonical.

But again, The Shepherd was considered canonical in some early commentaries.

In the end, we're left to a 'what if' scenario – but the texts are available, so that's something.
 
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For the sake of

And yet it speaks of it to me, and has spoken to me.

Individual interpretations don't change the historical facts. You made a claim about historical reality. "The Christian belief in the Trinity is something independent of Greek philosophy." Your claim is demonstrably false.

As for Paula Fredrikson, even those who offer laudable critiques – indeed I have referenced her – do not shy away from pointing out the errors and assumptions she rests on as if proof ...

So . . . you say these critics challenge her understanding of the role of creation ex nihilo and its impact on Christology. Could you name some of these critics and cite their specific arguments against Fredriksen's analysis of how philosophical ideas, particularly concerning hyle and being, shaped the debates about Christ's nature and led to the idea of co-equality? I'm interested in seeing where they disagree with her assessment. Vague references to unnamed critics aren't very convincing. But, then again, perhaps your goal isn't to be convincing at all.
 
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But Traditional Christianity does not add to scripture.

The Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7-8) is a classic example of something that was added to scripture and then used to support the Trinity.

"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him." (John 4:23)

"God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24)

"The Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you." (John 14:17)

"But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me." (John 15:26)
Very much a triune here – the Paraclete, the Spirit of Truth; Jesus, and the Father – three distinct entities.

"But when he, the Spirit of Truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you." (John 16:13)

"We are of God. He that knoweth God, heareth us. He that is not of God, heareth us not. By this we know the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error." (1 John 4:6)

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"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." (Matthew 11:15)

"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." (Matthew 13:9)

"Then shall the just shine as the sun, in the kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." (Matthew 13:43)

"And he said: He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." (Mark 4:9)

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That hearing did not stop when the last drop of ink dried on Scripture, nor with the death of the last apostle ...

None of the verses quoted (John 4.23-24, John 14.17, John 15.26, John 16.13, 1 John 4.6, Matthew 11.15, Matthew 13.9, Matthew 13.43, Mark 4.9) prove the Trinity as it's understood by Catholics (one God in three co-equal, co-eternal, consubstantial persons). They don't explain the relationship between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in a way that constitutes the Trinity.
 
Individual interpretations don't change the historical facts. You made a claim about historical reality. "The Christian belief in the Trinity is something independent of Greek philosophy." Your claim is demonstrably false.
I disagree. I can reason the Three Persons from Scripture.

So . . . you say these critics challenge her understanding of the role of creation ex nihilo and its impact on Christology.
No, I'm saying they just don't accept her conclusions as binding. That suffices me ...
 
I disagree. I can reason the Three Persons from Scripture.

This just amounts to whether you can interpret scripture in a Trinitarian way. That's not what the discussion is about. It's about the historical development of the doctrine itself.

No, I'm saying they just don't accept her conclusions as binding. That suffices me ...

You still haven't answered my question. You claim there are critics of Fredriksen who disagree with her conclusions about the influence of Greek philosophy on the development of the Trinity, mainly creation ex nihilo and Christology. I'm not asking if they find her conclusions binding. I'm asking for specific critics and specific arguments they've made against her analysis.
 
"But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me." (John 15:26)
Very much a triune here – the Paraclete, the Spirit of Truth; Jesus, and the Father – three distinct entities.
That is an interpretation that then resulted in a path to adding meaning called a Trinity.

I could quote those words, they are written for people to follow, history has left us records of those that were denounced as heretics for not embracing a trinity mindset.

I personally see that verse in a different light, that enables me to consider that Muhammd is included in that passage.

One thought, my own thoughts, I see the Father as Baha'u'llah, The Messiah of the end of ages. Thus both Muhammad and the Bab and Baha'u'llah could be the "Spirit of Truth".

Paraclete = Holy Spirit
Father = Baha'u'llah (Bringer of the Day of God)
Spirit of Truth = To me all the Messengers to come after Jesus
Me = Jesus who will be testified of.

Jesus Annointed of the Holy Spirit = Spirit of Truth = Son who will come as the Father.

Father = Baha'u'llah, the guide to All Truth = Annointed of Holy Spirit = Spirit of Truth = End of Age Messiah.

God = One who Annoints = Unknowable, unattainable Essence.

This understanding was also given to me by the Bible, with an amazing passage of deep significance.

Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God

Baha'u'llah in English = Glory of God.

Regards Tony
 
This just amounts to whether you can interpret scripture in a Trinitarian way.
Yes. Clearly, as the early Church did, in terms of three persons. The doctrine of the Three Persons then evolved in relation to disputes regarding the precise nature of the relationship between the Three.

That's not what the discussion is about. It's about the historical development of the doctrine itself.
I would say the doctrine emerged from a dialogue between Scripture and Platonism.

You still haven't answered my question. You claim there are critics of Fredriksen who disagree with her conclusions about ... I'm asking for specific critics and specific arguments they've made against her analysis.
I haven't said what conclusions I agree or disagree with – simply that I don't treat Fredriksen as if hers is the last word on the matter.

I haven't read her a great deal – some materials on the Jewishness of Paul, but that's about all. The comments I made were from her admirers, that she ought to be read, has a lot to say, but not everything is entirely reliable because there are questions regarding how she came to her conclusions.
 
This from the Stanford Encyclopaedia on Origen:

2. The intellectual milieu
Scholars are apt to speak casually of Origen’s Platonism, more technically of his “middle” Platonism, most commonly, and not often with conscious paradox, of his Christian Platonism.

... Origen undertakes to show that the simplest disciple of God’s word knows him (God) better than the philosophers who seek him by their own methods (Against Celsus 7.42), that Plato misrepresents the fall and diminishes the Creator, that if his myths are deep, the biblical allegories are deeper and less perverse, and that Numenius, the foremost Platonist of recent times, has spoken of both Moses and Jesus with esteem (Against Celsus 4.51 etc.).

The Bible ... is the matrix of every argument in this as in all his writings; while it would be naive, and a contradiction of his own practice, to deny that his exegesis was conditioned by philosophical assumptions ... (Origen assigns) to Greek thought an ancillary role in the elucidation of the scriptures ... he held that, since every exercise of reason is inspired by Christ the Logos, a Christian has as much right to the tools of pagan philosophy as the Israelites had to reimburse their labour from the “spoils of the Egyptians”

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Jumping forward, the Doctrine of the Trinity, which took its final shape under the Cappadocian Fathers – principally Gregory of Nyssa (late 4th century), owes a huge debt to Origen –

Nyssen’s (Gregory of Nyssa) arguments in In Illud: Tunc et Ipse Filius entirely derive from Origen (probably also passing through Marcellus of Ancyra and Eusebius). Origen’s influence, theoretical and exegetical, is evident in every passage, from the argumentative pillars down to the tiniest details of exegesis. Gregory’s close dependence on Origen (shows Origen to be) ... the main inspirer of the Cappadocians, especially Nyssen, in what became Trinitarian orthodoxy.

What emerges ever more clearly is that Origen’s Trinitarian heritage is to be found, not in ‘Arianism,’ but in Athanasius, Marcellus of Ancyra, Eusebius, Didymus, and above all Nyssen (and the Cappadocians), although, unlike Origen, Gregory of Nyssa obviously wrote after Plotinus and endeavoured to show that all the Trinity is identifiable with Plotinus’ first hypostasis (see especially his Ad Gr. 5).

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The gist of my argument being that Christian doctrine did not emerge from a vacuum, but through a dialogue with the world, and primarily through the Hebrew Scriptures and Plato, and that where necessary, in accordance with the revelation of the New Testament, the pagan philosophies were revised and corrected accordingly.

Had the Fathers access to the Hindu Sat-Chit-Ananda, no doubt they would have argued from that basis also.
 
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I haven't read her a great deal – some materials on the Jewishness of Paul, but that's about all. The comments I made were from her admirers, that she ought to be read, has a lot to say, but not everything is entirely reliable because there are questions regarding how she came to her conclusions.

Well, I'm concerned that you've made a claim about "laudable critiques" of Paula Fredriksen's work regarding her analysis of creation ex nihilo and its impact on Christology . . . without being able to provide any specific examples. Until you can offer concrete examples of these alleged criticisms, your statements about Fredriksen's "errors and assumptions" remain unsubstantiated.

Yes. Clearly, as the early Church did, in terms of three persons. The doctrine of the Three Persons then evolved in relation to disputes regarding the precise nature of the relationship between the Three.

Your claim about the early Church's belief in the Trinity is directly contradicted by the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: "No theologian in the first three Christian centuries was a trinitarian in the sense of believing that the one God is tripersonal, containing equally divine 'persons,' Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."
 
This from the Stanford Encyclopaedia on Origen:

2. The intellectual milieu
Scholars are apt to speak casually of Origen’s Platonism, more technically of his “middle” Platonism, most commonly, and not often with conscious paradox, of his Christian Platonism.

... Origen undertakes to show that the simplest disciple of God’s word knows him (God) better than the philosophers who seek him by their own methods (Against Celsus 7.42), that Plato misrepresents the fall and diminishes the Creator, that if his myths are deep, the biblical allegories are deeper and less perverse, and that Numenius, the foremost Platonist of recent times, has spoken of both Moses and Jesus with esteem (Against Celsus 4.51 etc.).

The Bible ... is the matrix of every argument in this as in all his writings; while it would be naive, and a contradiction of his own practice, to deny that his exegesis was conditioned by philosophical assumptions ... (Origen assigns) to Greek thought an ancillary role in the elucidation of the scriptures ... he held that, since every exercise of reason is inspired by Christ the Logos, a Christian has as much right to the tools of pagan philosophy as the Israelites had to reimburse their labour from the “spoils of the Egyptians”

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Jumping forward, the Doctrine of the Trinity, which took its final shape under the Cappadocian Fathers – principally Gregory of Nyssa (late 4th century), owes a huge debt to Origen –

Nyssen’s (Gregory of Nyssa) arguments in In Illud: Tunc et Ipse Filius entirely derive from Origen (probably also passing through Marcellus of Ancyra and Eusebius). Origen’s influence, theoretical and exegetical, is evident in every passage, from the argumentative pillars down to the tiniest details of exegesis. Gregory’s close dependence on Origen (shows Origen to be) ... the main inspirer of the Cappadocians, especially Nyssen, in what became Trinitarian orthodoxy.

What emerges ever more clearly is that Origen’s Trinitarian heritage is to be found, not in ‘Arianism,’ but in Athanasius, Marcellus of Ancyra, Eusebius, Didymus, and above all Nyssen (and the Cappadocians), although, unlike Origen, Gregory of Nyssa obviously wrote after Plotinus and endeavoured to show that all the Trinity is identifiable with Plotinus’ first hypostasis (see especially his Ad Gr. 5).

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The gist of my argument being that Christian doctrine did not emerge from a vacuum, but through a dialogue with the world, and primarily through the Hebrew Scriptures and Plato, and that where necessary, in accordance with the revelation of the New Testament, the pagan philosophies were revised and corrected accordingly.

Had the Fathers access to the Hindu Sat-Chit-Ananda, no doubt they would have argued from that basis also.

The encyclopedia points out that Origen's own views were, in fact, subordinationist. It says the Father is "autotheos, God in the fullest sense," while the Son is merely "theos" and the Spirit a "dependent being." This hierarchical view is not what later Trinitarian orthodoxy affirmed. Hence the encyclopedia notes: "It seems unlikely that Origen could have signed the Nicene Creed of 325, in which the Son is declared to be from the ousia of the Father, and therefore homoousios (of one essence, substance or nature) with him."

It's undeniable that Origen's interpretations were influenced by his philosophical background. As stated earlier, Origen saw the Son and the Spirit as less than fully equal to the Father. His understanding of the Bible was shaped by his philosophical framework, leading to subordinationist conclusions that were later deemed heretical.
 
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Jumping forward, the Doctrine of the Trinity, which took its final shape under the Cappadocian Fathers – principally Gregory of Nyssa (late 4th century), owes a huge debt to Origen –

Nyssen’s (Gregory of Nyssa) arguments in In Illud: Tunc et Ipse Filius entirely derive from Origen (probably also passing through Marcellus of Ancyra and Eusebius). Origen’s influence, theoretical and exegetical, is evident in every passage, from the argumentative pillars down to the tiniest details of exegesis. Gregory’s close dependence on Origen (shows Origen to be) ... the main inspirer of the Cappadocians, especially Nyssen, in what became Trinitarian orthodoxy.

What emerges ever more clearly is that Origen’s Trinitarian heritage is to be found, not in ‘Arianism,’ but in Athanasius, Marcellus of Ancyra, Eusebius, Didymus, and above all Nyssen (and the Cappadocians), although, unlike Origen, Gregory of Nyssa obviously wrote after Plotinus and endeavoured to show that all the Trinity is

At least give credit where credit is due. See Ilaria L.E. Ramelli.
 
Well, I'm concerned that you've made a claim about "laudable critiques" of Paula Fredriksen's work regarding her analysis of creation ex nihilo and its impact on Christology . . .
Ah, sorry if I misled you there. My comment was intended to be more general, taken from a range of largely favourable critiques of her books.

A review of "From Jesus to Christ" on Shenvi Apologetics
"– Insufficiently argued...
... Fredriksen’s entire work rests on one underlying assumption ... (an) unquestioned assumption and would crumble without it. Yet she never explains why we should believe that this assumption is correct."
... her claims often becomes viciously circular because the gospels themselves are the only source of information about the community that supposedly produced them! So we’re left with arguments like 'Mark’s community wrote story X to defend their theological belief Y. And we know they had theological Y because they wrote story X'.”

A review of "When Christians Were Jews" from Larry Hurtado's blog.
"I think that it deserves a wide readership, and I am in agreement with many points in it. I count her as a dear friend, and so feel free also, however, to indicate some points of disagreement (I’ve communicated these to her in emails, so she won’t find anything surprising here)."

"Personally, (discussing the reason behind the arrest and crucifixion) I have to say that I find this argument to comprise a dubious either/or set of alternatives... So I would say that a more adequate statement is that ... not only ... but also ... "

"Similarly, (arguing the Resurrection seen as a sign of Jesus' divinity ) ... she poses another set of false alternatives ... wouldn’t it be more adequate to say ... both ... and also ... ?"

Elsewhere: "She focuses more (almost exclusively), however, on the validation of what she proposes ... but she seems to me to neglect (or fail to see?) ... "

A review of "Sin" on The Christian Century site
"Each individual portrait (a seven-step discussion of sin from Jesus to Augustine) through seven exhibits up-to-the-minute scholarship and is elegantly written. Some of the portraits will influence my preaching: Jesus is not a non-Jewish nice guy. He’s a Jewish prophet, with a ministry oriented around the temple and founded on the practice of exorcism. Paul reorients Jewish language of sacrifice around gentiles presenting themselves to God. Origen follows Paul on the scope of salvation. All good.

But then Fredriksen leaves the pieces of the mosaic spread on the floor, unreconciled and unreconcilable... But what troubles me is the way she deploys what is now common rhetoric in patristic scholarship... (Fredriksen’s scare quotes are omnipresent) ... ”

"It’s a common way of telling the history, but it has not gone unchallenged... Others have written accounts of doctrinal history that are fully cognizant of modern criticism yet depict orthodoxy as something more than arbitrary. Fredriksen nowhere suggests that revisionist accounts of early church history have also seen revision."

A review of "Paul, The Pagan's Apostle" by Ben Witherington (warning: a multi-page review)
"In her Introduction to her new book, she lays down two ‘givens’ or presuppositions of her study: 1) Paul believed “he lived and worked in history’s final hour” (p. xi); and 2) “Paul lived his life entirely within his native Judaism ... Paul will be transformed into a ‘convert’, an ex- or even anti-Jew, indeed the founder of gentile Christianity.” (p. xii).

"... In fact I think she is seriously mistaken about the first (here we go again with reading Paul through Schweitzerian eschatology just when we thought his ghost had been exorcised from the Pauline discussion) and is mostly wrong about the second one (Paul remained within the pre-existing spectrum of early Judaism) It is amazing to see the tired old view of Weiss and Schweitzer recycled yet again by a very diverse group of contemporary scholars— besides Fredricksen, there is Allison and Ehrman for example... "

"In order to come to this conclusion a good deal of exegetical gymnastics are required... "

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In these and other reviews, there is a common thread. The quality of her scholarship. The range of her materials. What is also noted is, however, a tendency to assume an 'either/or' position in putting forward a thesis that is not as certain as she assumes, and the consequent failure (by oversight or omission) to take on board a broader spectrum of possibilities.

But nevertheless, her books are generally lauded and worth a read ... she's just not high on my list.
 
Your claim about the early Church's belief in the Trinity is directly contradicted by the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: "No theologian in the first three Christian centuries was a trinitarian in the sense of believing that the one God is tripersonal, containing equally divine 'persons,' Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."
Ah, here you've skipped over 'in the sense of' in the above quote.

The New Testament is tri-personal, and the three persons are divine, the nature of their relation is not explicitly stated.

The Church was tri-personal in its baptismal formulae and its confession, from the earliest writings of the post-Apostolic era.

Pope Clement of Rome – in his Epistle to Corinth perhaps as early as 70CE but no later than 96CE – says: "Do we not have one God, and one Christ, and one gracious Spirit that has been poured out upon us, and one calling in Christ?" (1 Clement 46:6).

Ignatius of Antioch, writing around 110CE, says: "Christ, and to the Father, and to the Spirit" (Letter to the Magnesians VIII).

Justin Martyr (100-165) is the first to use much of the terminology of Trinitarian theology – the Father and the Son as the same ousia and yet are also distinct prosopa, anticipating the three persons hypostases of Tertullian (who used the Latin substantia), and Origen.

For many of the early Fathers, there was just one hypostasis in God, and the terms ousia and hypostasis were treated as synonyms, only later attaining concise distinction and subsequently declared at the Council of Chalcedon in 451CE.

Nevertheless, the church was tri-personal from the get-go.

The first mention of 'trinity' first appears in the Greek of Theophilus of Antioch (died 183-5CE) in Theophilus to Autolycus
"In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity (Τριάδος / Trinitatis) of God, and His Word (Λόγου / Verbi), and His wisdom (Σοφίας / Sapientiae)."
The commentary adds: "Τριάδος. The earliest use of this word “Trinity.” It seems to have been used by this writer in his lost works, also; and, as a learned friends suggests, the use he makes of it is familiar. He does not lug it in as something novel: “types of the Trinity,” he says, illustrating an accepted word, not introducing a new one. An eminent authority says, “It is certain, that, according to the notions of Theophilus, God, His Word, and His wisdom constitute a Trinity; and it should seem a Trinity of persons.” He notes that the title σοφία, is here assigned to the Holy Spirit, although he himself elsewhere gives this title to the Son (book ii. cap. x., supra), as is more usual with the Fathers.”


The first defence of a doctrine was by Tertullian, in Contra Praexeas, written around 213CE.
"Chapter II—The Catholic Doctrine of the Trinity and Unity, Sometimes Called the Divine Economy, or Dispensation of the Personal Relations of the Godhead."
For sure this defence was of a doctrine that was subsequently abandoned, it's not the doctrine of the Cappadocians, but my point is to show that the idea of a Trinity of Persons was indeed around in the first Christian centuries, but had yet to be dogmatically declared as three persons of equal stature in every degree.
 
The encyclopedia points out that Origen's own views were, in fact, subordinationist.
Whereas Illaria Ramelli argues, in her Origen’s Anti-Subordinationism and its Heritage in the Nicene and Cappadocian Line two significant points:
1: Origen was not, as commonly supposed, a subordinationist, and
2: That his influence on the Cappadocian Fathers in their Trinitarian formulation is, in Gregory at least, there in every line.

This (Platonic) hierarchical view is not what later Trinitarian orthodoxy affirmed. Hence the encyclopedia notes: "It seems unlikely that Origen could have signed the Nicene Creed of 325, in which the Son is declared to be from the ousia of the Father, and therefore homoousios (of one essence, substance or nature) with him."
Whether Origen would have signed is a moot point. Certainly he was anti-Arian, and what would have arisen in a dialogue between Origen and Athanasius we can only wonder ... but the point is that later Trinitarian orthodoxy had moved away from the Platonic understanding to one of its own, even if it shares the same lexicon.

It's undeniable that Origen's interpretations were influenced by his philosophical background.
It is also undeniable that Origen's philosophical assertions were influenced by his Christian faith.

It's not one or t'other, it's a two-way street and it requires a careful reading, as scholars like Ramelli show.

As stated earlier, Origen saw the Son and the Spirit as less than fully equal to the Father. His understanding of the Bible was shaped by his philosophical framework, leading to subordinationist conclusions that were later deemed heretical.
Or perhaps not ... the condemnations of Origen (the two crises) are in each case a politically-driven mess. The accusations are ill-informed if not outright erroneous (he was condemned for writings that were not even his); what was condemned is an erroneous 'Origenism' prevalent in certain monasteries. The Church now holds him to be innocent of the accusations, and if there were any justice in the world he would be a saint and Father of the Church - he is in my mind.
 
Would that help?
Well there's a correspondence.

From wiki
Saccidānanda (सच्चिदानन्द; pre-sandhi form sat-cit-ānanda) is a compounded Sanskrit word consisting of "sat", "cit", and "ānanda", all three considered as inseparable from the nature of ultimate reality called Brahman in Hinduism.

So we have one reality in which the three are 'inseperable' – one essence, but each distinctly itself, and co-equal in regard to the others.

sat (सत्): "being, existence", "real" ...
cit (चित्): "consciousness" or "spirit" ... (correlative with Logos)
ānanda (आनन्द): "happiness, joy, bliss" ...

And regarding ananda:
Ānanda is a Sanskrit word regarded as a verbal noun nanda prefixed with ā. ā indicates the place where the verbal action occurs; for example, āsrama, where one toils, ārama, where one enjoys oneself, ākara, where things are scattered, etc. The word ānanda thus implies a locus, that in which one finds bliss, be it a son, the fulfillment of a wish, the knowledge of brahman, or the atman. Ānanda is not just a free-floating unfocused bliss, it has an implied object."

Note then that ananda is dynamic, and in Trinitarian theology the Holy Spirit is the Love in common between Father and Son ...

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The suggestion being that a dialogue with Hindu philosophy would have complementary touchpoints, as with Middle and Neoplatonism, but the unity in trinity implied in the Hindu doctrine is more akin to Trinity than the hierarchic unity of Platonism.
 
Or perhaps not ... the condemnations of Origen (the two crises) are in each case a politically-driven mess. The accusations are ill-informed if not outright erroneous (he was condemned for writings that were not even his); what was condemned is an erroneous 'Origenism' prevalent in certain monasteries. The Church now holds him to be innocent of the accusations, and if there were any justice in the world he would be a saint and Father of the Church - he is in my mind.
I realise that that is what you believe..

..but it can't be proved.
It's interesting that you think we can know more about Origen now, than they all did
back in the day. 😐

No, not accused of heresy due to confusion .. a political mess, yes!
 
Ah, here you've skipped over 'in the sense of' in the above quote.

Fair enough.

The New Testament is tri-personal, and the three persons are divine, the nature of their relation is not explicitly stated.

In the sense of believing in co-equal, co-eternal persons within one Godhead – the fully developed Nicene/Chalcedonian doctrine.

The Church was tri-personal in its baptismal formulae and its confession, from the earliest writings of the post-Apostolic era.

As stated earlier, "the formula itself only suggests a triad, not necessarily the specific doctrine of the Trinity as it later developed . . ."

Pope Clement of Rome – in his Epistle to Corinth perhaps as early as 70CE but no later than 96CE – says: "Do we not have one God, and one Christ, and one gracious Spirit that has been poured out upon us, and one calling in Christ?" (1 Clement 46:6).

It could be interpreted in various ways, including non-Trinitarian ones. The important question is what Clement meant by "God" in these phrases. This is where Trinitarians often project later, more defined doctrines back onto earlier, more ambiguous texts.

Ignatius of Antioch, writing around 110CE, says: "Christ, and to the Father, and to the Spirit" (Letter to the Magnesians VIII).

I think you mean Letter to the Magnesians XIII (13), not VIII (8).

In my translation, Ignatius says: "...in flesh and spirit, in faith and love, in the Son and the Father, and in the Spirit..." It's a string of "and in..." phrases. Are we to assume everything listed is "one substance" just because they are juxtaposed? Are flesh and spirit also "one substance" here?

These kinds of explicit triadic formulas are actually not very frequent in the writings of this era. And, more importantly, when they do appear, they don't carry the baggage of later Trinitarian statements.

Whereas Illaria Ramelli argues, in her Origen’s Anti-Subordinationism and its Heritage in the Nicene and Cappadocian Line two significant points:
1: Origen was not, as commonly supposed, a subordinationist, and
2: That his influence on the Cappadocian Fathers in their Trinitarian formulation is, in Gregory at least, there in every line.

The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy suggests otherwise, suggesting to me an ongoing debate:

"To explain the selective use of the definite article in John 1.1, he characterizes the Father (ho theos) as autotheos, very God, in contrast to the Son who is merely theos (CommJohn 2.7.16–18)"

"The agent whom we call the Second Person of the Trinity is 'another god' at Dialogue with Heraclides 2 and a 'second god' on two occasions in his work Against Celsus (5.39, 5.61). This appellation is not attested in earlier Christian prose...It does not occur in works addressed by Origen to Christians of sound faith..."

"when he suggests, however, that the Father is higher than nous (Against Celsus 7.45), he does not develop a metaphysical theory..."

"Origen stipulates in his treatise On Prayer (15.1) that the Son should not receive the prayer of adoration which is offered to the Father because he differs from the Father in ousia and in substrate (hupokeimenon)..."

"Although the Son is not 'from the ousia' of the Father, he is said in the Latin translation of Origen’s Commentary on Hebrews to be ex substantia patris, from the hypostasis of the Father."

"Origen strongly affirms the ontological dependence of the Spirit, or third hypostasis of the Trinity, on the second. To say otherwise would be to deny that he was brought into being, since the author of all that was brought into being, according to John 1.3, is the Son or Logos."

"If the second person has any substrate—any matter, as we might say—it is the will of God the Father."

"However one accounts for these obscurities, it seems unlikely that Origen could have signed the Nicene Creed of 325, in which the Son is declared to be from the ousia of the Father, and therefore homoousios (of one essence, substance or nature) with him (cf. CommJohn 20.18.157)."
 
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