Blue
Member
"our will not aligning with Gods and how people fight it because its their nature.. That is so true.."
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How can we speak of our "will" not aligning with Gods, or aligning with Gods? (God's?)
How can we possibly prove beyond personal validations that our "will" can or cannot align with Gods? (God's) We cannot.
How can anyone know as a fact beyond themselves that
a) there are Gods, and
b) that we could possibly know if our "will" can be aligned with them?
That would surely necessitate 'knowing' (claiming to know) the very mind of God, and how can anyone be so presumptious and proud to do that?
What if the God so conceived is a false God... or a non-existent God?
How would you know beyond your own faith in such a concept?
No one does and no one has.
If therefore Faith is a purely personal concern how on Earth can anyone declare such matters as if they are universally true? How can they declare there is in fact a 'pathway' (note: not 'pathways') to 'Salvation' for others? That those others can personally seek it, find it, and follow it?
Well, of course others can, but there is no guarantee or necessity that it should be the same path or even the same religion with its particular doctrines and dogmas.
This Community area is about belief and spirituality... not specifically Christianity which seems to be the proselytising intent of a number of posters on this thread.
How can the matters stated in this thread be viewed as specifically Christian in orientation?
We should be discussing Pagan, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, Jain, etc., etc., concepts of salvation, if it appears in those religions and spiritual responses as important, as there are perhaps many paths claimed that could be construed as 'ways' to 'salvation'; even taking drugs, as many of the Old Testament writers may have done.
No one here has even satisfactorily indicated from what we are being saved by this 'salvation'.
What are we being 'saved' from? Hell? Damnation? Our own selfishness, greed and lustful, cruel desires, perhaps?
What kind of spiritual and religious view is it that conceives of those who are saved and those who are not?
Surely, 'judgement' from some entity or other can be explained to someone else, who has no understanding of such a strange and vengeful concept?
No one has done that here so far in my reading of the posts, which I accept are sincerely meant and honest in their personal expressions.
Why would an all-powerful 'God' want to condemn the unbelievers to some idea of 'Hell and damnation'? What about the pagans, the atheists, the Jains, the Hindus, etc? Are they 'damned' because they have not 'served' this all-powerful God? Are they condemned by this all-powerful God to a place that is neither heaven nor Hell?
I have read here quotations sourced from both the Apochryphal and Gnostic texts and the Bible. How can such texts be viewed as some kind of 'authority'? Are they any different from writings concerning other Gods in other faiths? Do they have some kind of precedence because they come from a 'christian' Bible? That seems a) presumptious, and b) proudful (or should I say, less than humble?)!
Finally, what is this 'spiritual warfare'? What does that actually mean?
Who or what is at War with who or what?
As LUNAMOTH posted:
"Do you believe then that Jesus' preferred method of teaching was by secret initiation? That his word could only really be understood and interpretted by a few chosen individuals and the rest were left out of God's plan for salvation? And that it just happened that the ones who "got it right" were suppressed efficiently while only those with corruption in mind were successful in establishing Christianity?
Don't you think God would be a bit more, uh, efficient than that?"
It seems to me that a number of people here wish to both have a personal God, and one that is 'out there' beyond themselves.
If the latter had any evidence, that might be worth discussing, but surely the fact is that any 'God' concept is personal and precious to the individual as their spiritual response... and that is all that can be said.
That does not necessitate proofs. It cannot brook denial, it is secure in its heartfelt (and maybe soulful) personal understandings. That is not only as it should be... it is a fact. Faith exists in the individual. If it had proofs beyond the individual, we would be dealing with objectivities amenable to investigation.
Generalising to others about 'salvation' is therefore not only potentially dangerous, it has no validity beyond the individual.
To many of a different faith other than Christianity, it may not even have any personal application or meaning relelvanjt to those individuals.
There can be comfort in supposing that other Christians may feel as you do yourself, if you happen to be Christian, but beyond that there is no universal application or even, of necessity, any meaning beyond your own heart (and soul?).
Where does this Thread title suppose the 'path' leads?
What is it saving us from?
Why is a beyond death 'salvation' of spirit considered by some to be important?
What does it in that case achieve? (Oneness with the Almighty? What does that mean?)
Most importantly, what does it visibily achieve for the living? The evidence seems to suggest, it consists of telling other people their spiritual responses are false, and there is only one true path to this 'salvation'.
It consists of imposing a set of beliefs, dogmas and dosctrines upon those of other faiths and no-faith... and even seeking to dominate their honestly held spiritual responses and mould them to the 'one' view. It proselytises itself as a specific religious meme, which bears no logical necessity of truth.
Haven't all monotheistic religions always done this? Even tortured and gone to war over this... in the physical realm?
Can that honestly be justified historically, or in the hatreds stirred up in the modern world?
Come on now; let's ask ourselves some questions.
Is spiritual 'salvation' a delusion, or not?
Is there only one 'path' as the Title states?
========================
How can we speak of our "will" not aligning with Gods, or aligning with Gods? (God's?)
How can we possibly prove beyond personal validations that our "will" can or cannot align with Gods? (God's) We cannot.
How can anyone know as a fact beyond themselves that
a) there are Gods, and
b) that we could possibly know if our "will" can be aligned with them?
That would surely necessitate 'knowing' (claiming to know) the very mind of God, and how can anyone be so presumptious and proud to do that?
What if the God so conceived is a false God... or a non-existent God?
How would you know beyond your own faith in such a concept?
No one does and no one has.
If therefore Faith is a purely personal concern how on Earth can anyone declare such matters as if they are universally true? How can they declare there is in fact a 'pathway' (note: not 'pathways') to 'Salvation' for others? That those others can personally seek it, find it, and follow it?
Well, of course others can, but there is no guarantee or necessity that it should be the same path or even the same religion with its particular doctrines and dogmas.
This Community area is about belief and spirituality... not specifically Christianity which seems to be the proselytising intent of a number of posters on this thread.
How can the matters stated in this thread be viewed as specifically Christian in orientation?
We should be discussing Pagan, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, Jain, etc., etc., concepts of salvation, if it appears in those religions and spiritual responses as important, as there are perhaps many paths claimed that could be construed as 'ways' to 'salvation'; even taking drugs, as many of the Old Testament writers may have done.
No one here has even satisfactorily indicated from what we are being saved by this 'salvation'.
What are we being 'saved' from? Hell? Damnation? Our own selfishness, greed and lustful, cruel desires, perhaps?
What kind of spiritual and religious view is it that conceives of those who are saved and those who are not?
Surely, 'judgement' from some entity or other can be explained to someone else, who has no understanding of such a strange and vengeful concept?
No one has done that here so far in my reading of the posts, which I accept are sincerely meant and honest in their personal expressions.
Why would an all-powerful 'God' want to condemn the unbelievers to some idea of 'Hell and damnation'? What about the pagans, the atheists, the Jains, the Hindus, etc? Are they 'damned' because they have not 'served' this all-powerful God? Are they condemned by this all-powerful God to a place that is neither heaven nor Hell?
I have read here quotations sourced from both the Apochryphal and Gnostic texts and the Bible. How can such texts be viewed as some kind of 'authority'? Are they any different from writings concerning other Gods in other faiths? Do they have some kind of precedence because they come from a 'christian' Bible? That seems a) presumptious, and b) proudful (or should I say, less than humble?)!
Finally, what is this 'spiritual warfare'? What does that actually mean?
Who or what is at War with who or what?
As LUNAMOTH posted:
"Do you believe then that Jesus' preferred method of teaching was by secret initiation? That his word could only really be understood and interpretted by a few chosen individuals and the rest were left out of God's plan for salvation? And that it just happened that the ones who "got it right" were suppressed efficiently while only those with corruption in mind were successful in establishing Christianity?
Don't you think God would be a bit more, uh, efficient than that?"
It seems to me that a number of people here wish to both have a personal God, and one that is 'out there' beyond themselves.
If the latter had any evidence, that might be worth discussing, but surely the fact is that any 'God' concept is personal and precious to the individual as their spiritual response... and that is all that can be said.
That does not necessitate proofs. It cannot brook denial, it is secure in its heartfelt (and maybe soulful) personal understandings. That is not only as it should be... it is a fact. Faith exists in the individual. If it had proofs beyond the individual, we would be dealing with objectivities amenable to investigation.
Generalising to others about 'salvation' is therefore not only potentially dangerous, it has no validity beyond the individual.
To many of a different faith other than Christianity, it may not even have any personal application or meaning relelvanjt to those individuals.
There can be comfort in supposing that other Christians may feel as you do yourself, if you happen to be Christian, but beyond that there is no universal application or even, of necessity, any meaning beyond your own heart (and soul?).
Where does this Thread title suppose the 'path' leads?
What is it saving us from?
Why is a beyond death 'salvation' of spirit considered by some to be important?
What does it in that case achieve? (Oneness with the Almighty? What does that mean?)
Most importantly, what does it visibily achieve for the living? The evidence seems to suggest, it consists of telling other people their spiritual responses are false, and there is only one true path to this 'salvation'.
It consists of imposing a set of beliefs, dogmas and dosctrines upon those of other faiths and no-faith... and even seeking to dominate their honestly held spiritual responses and mould them to the 'one' view. It proselytises itself as a specific religious meme, which bears no logical necessity of truth.
Haven't all monotheistic religions always done this? Even tortured and gone to war over this... in the physical realm?
Can that honestly be justified historically, or in the hatreds stirred up in the modern world?
Come on now; let's ask ourselves some questions.
Is spiritual 'salvation' a delusion, or not?
Is there only one 'path' as the Title states?
