One God, Many Paths

OK


Which, in the Baha'i Faith, such changes will be adjudicated by the Universal House of Justice.

A case in point being the exclusion of women from the UHJ ... the secular world throws all manner of critique at his (as it does Catholicism for a male-only priesthood) and the Baha'i defends that position according to its own credo, dogmas and doctrines.

The Baha'i Faith chooses to transform deeply ingrained cultural norms organically through education, community building, and empowering women at grassroots levels and within National Spiritual Assemblies (where women do serve and are often chairs). The point is hearts must change first.

Forcing a structure when large parts of the world are still struggling with basic female literacy could violates the principle of wisdom and tact needed to guide humanity towards unity without causing undue "disturbance and dissension" among the "feeble and far-removed."

In my opinion, the Baha'i approach is patient and practical. We see what damage the secular world has made with forceful changes. Just look at the Cultural Revolution, collectivization under the Soviet Union, prohibition in the United States, or the policies regarding the treatment of Native Americans.

Schuon wrote:
"A religion is an integral whole comparable to a living organism that develops according to necessary and exact laws; one might therefore call it a spiritual organism, or a social one in its most outward aspect. In any case, it is an organism and not a construction of arbitrary conventions; one cannot therefore legitimately consider the constituent elements of a religion independently of their inward unity, as if one were concerned with a mere collection of facts."
(Schuon, The Transcendent Unity of Religions, 'Christianity and Islam')

While a religion can 'evolve' according to its own internal life and in relation to external conditions, it can change and alter, and so forth, it must and can only remain true to itself, its DNA, as a soma pneumatikos, and attempts by an outside agency

What is deemed an outside agency? The way you color the world is . . . determined by your metaphysical framework.

So determining elements of any religion as merely 'outward' and 'unnecessary' is a dubious undertaking and may well give rise to unfortunate, if not disastrous, unforeseen consequences.

Following laws delivered in 7th-century tribal society with the belief they must be implemented in a 21st-century global community is what would lead to disastrous consequences, my friend, as we can clearly see in today's news.
 
OK


Which, in the Baha'i Faith, such changes will be adjudicated by the Universal House of Justice.

A case in point being the exclusion of women from the UHJ ... the secular world throws all manner of critique at his (as it does Catholicism for a male-only priesthood) and the Baha'i defends that position according to its own credo, dogmas and doctrines.

Schuon wrote:
"A religion is an integral whole comparable to a living organism that develops according to necessary and exact laws; one might therefore call it a spiritual organism, or a social one in its most outward aspect. In any case, it is an organism and not a construction of arbitrary conventions; one cannot therefore legitimately consider the constituent elements of a religion independently of their inward unity, as if one were concerned with a mere collection of facts."
(Schuon, The Transcendent Unity of Religions, 'Christianity and Islam')

While a religion can 'evolve' according to its own internal life and in relation to external conditions, it can change and alter, and so forth, it must and can only remain true to itself, its DNA, as a soma pneumatikos, and attempts by an outside agency to add to or take away from those constituent elements is, to a greater or lesser degree, to circumscribe its integrity as a spiritual entity.

Schuon asserts, religions are not disparate and disassociated assemblages of facts and fictions, myths and metaphors, dogmas and doctrines; their outward aspects, even to their social aspect, is all part of, and intrinsic to, its holistic, organic being. So determining elements of any religion as merely 'outward' and 'unnecessary' is a dubious undertaking and may well give rise to unfortunate, if not disastrous, unforeseen consequences.

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In your assumptions about the meaning of "progressive revelation" for Bahais, you are not taking the Bahai Faith as it views itself. The Bahai Faith teaches that some of its teachings are the eternal path, and some are adaptations to the time and place, and of the latter, some can be changed by a House of Justice (including the national House of Justice) and some are fixed for a "dispensation." This does not fit with your views, but it is the self-understanding of the Bahai Faith, and it is a point of distinction for us, that while other religious communities have de facto made the same distinction and have changed the external matters over time, in the Bahai Faith this is conscious and regulated. In a "tablet" (letter) from around 1899, Abdu'l-Baha gives two examples of the advantage of flexibility in religious law: the forbidden degrees of marriage and the punishments for breaches of the religious law. The first should be decided by the House of Justice according to social customs and medical requirements, wisdom, and suitability for human nature (the first three of which are specific to a time and place). Punishments likewise cannot remain the same forever, as can be seen in Judaism and Islam, where the punishments specified in scripture are no longer socially acceptable.

I've translated the whole work here:
Abdu’l-Baha on religious law and the House of Justice

But I totally agree with your quote from Schuon. Each religious tradition must be understood on its own (dynamic) terms, or it is mis-understood. And all the parts of the tradition relate to the whole of that tradition. One cannot frame Bahai prophetology (progressive revelation) in a philosophical schema, leave out the Bahai understanding of its own teachings (see above) and say, when Bahais say Progressive Revelation they must mean what I say.
 
Because in all authentic religions there is a supra-rational element, a transcendent element, that sits at its core – its heart – and everything else 'forms' itself around that. One might call it Word or Logos or Aum or Dao or what have you, it is ageless and Eternal, it is, in Itself, utterly transcendent and unknowable, and it is that which is immanently present in the 'ground' of every living thing, every mode of being, and it is that by, through, in and with, all being is united and related ... all is one.
This is really fascinating. Where would I read more that explains that concept in particular?
The 'vocation' of all being, the 'calling' of all being, is not only to respond to that primordial, Eternal Call, but to add one's voice to it, so that the Single, Simple, One(-note, or sound or tone), becomes a harmonious melody, a theophany, and that is what doing religion is.
This is also fascinating - where can I read more in depth about this?
all authentic religions
What are the criteria by which that is determined?
tin invent their own religion,
I once knew someone who was trying to invent a form of deism he felt would be more rational than religion (he was a former Orthodox priest)
He collected some other deists who had their own ideas. Very frustrating individuals to talk to.

But not everybody is trying to invent their own religion.
Some people are followers, to varying degrees, of a non-orthodox branch of a religion - which is authentic to its devotees, all the more despite charges of "hErEsY" or "cRaZy cUlT" from the smug majority - Many if not most religions are a heretical spinoff of another religion -
Or some people are "truth-seekers" trying to figure out what is true
Or some people are just trying to get by and hope that G-d thinks about them from time to time.

If psychology teaches us anything, it's that we are prone to make the same choices, the same errors, over and over again.
Well... that's what therapy is for
(I happened to have a pretty intense session today with someone who wrapped up by saying "I didn't know any of these things you just told me"
People sometimes have ideas in their heads that make me SMH but they really didn't know otherwise. Like I didn't know a lot of things when I was young - and I'm talking about just regular life and relationship skills)

Used diligently therapy can help people stop making the same mistakes.

But one thing I can tell you, is that such a path, when it is authentic, is wholly and utterly real, in body, mind, spirit and soul ... it is solitary and sorrowful, desolate and alone – it is to walk the vale of tears, and those tears are your own – it exists because it needs must in a contingent cosmos such as ours, but its a hard path, a life of loss and loneliness.
Sometimes people who are not spiritually inclined at all have lives of loss and loneliness, for a bajillion different reasons.
I might have described some aspects of my social or even family experience a bit like that sometimes, but not my spiritual experience as such.
If anything pursuing what I did helped me find like minded people and be less alone.

I feel like there's an all-or-nothing or black-and-white thinking approach here - which I'm not sure is quite right - it sounds almost like you are saying "Either follow an orthodox religion to the T, OR follow a terrifying sorrowful desolate path alone" One extreme or the other. I'm not sure that is what you mean to convey by this... but neither has been much of a reflection of my experience or my husband's. Not in terms of spirituality. Other things maybe, a bit, but not in regards to religious life
The path is Great Burden, and whosoever walks that path pays a great price, and its rewards are not in this world.
If you're a prophet or a founder of a religion maybe (though not all great teachers necessarily intended to found a new religion) but if you live in a country with religious freedom (which I hope I will still have by the end of the decade) just being someone who is trying to figure out what is true by learning about different religious ideas does not necessarily put you in that place
Lastly, I would add that on the spiritual path there lies somewhere ahead 'the dark night of the soul' – which one can read about in any number of intellectual and emotional essays – but the experience of that renders everything 'as chaff before the wind', it is a whole-person experience, its is beyond experience, it is beyond that place governed by reason and rationality, void of every support ... and if that does not terrify the solitary seeker, then there's a case of 'fools rush in, where angels fear to tread'.
This sounds like greatness, but also very abstract.

All of this is amazing and intriguing, I'm just not sure I quite get what you are trying to convey.

One last note - if following an orthodox path is somehow required in order to get to the headwaters - using the river analogy - that may seem doable enough for religions where behavior - either ritual or ethical - is key. To the extent that belief is involved or required - well that changes the shape of things considerably doesn't it?
 
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"slavery" begins with 's', and not 'R' ;)

Orthodox faith does not promote slavery .. it discourages it .. while not outright banning it,
as it could lead to disadvantage to those already in service.

The pious are well aware that the owning of people is highly questionable, and only acceptable
in exceptional circumstances. i.e. war
I thought the capital R was meant to refer to Religion.
Are you sure that all orthodox faiths clearly discourage slavery?
 
I'm also aware of certain Baha'i teachings, such as the revision of the Doctrine of the Trinity, or the revision of the Doctrine of the Incarnation, or of the Resurrection, is effectively the dismissal of the beliefs of 98% of the Christian world, the fundamental tenets of Christianity, which is clearly 'supersessionism' which is, by definition, a 'replacement theology'.
I'm guessing Mormonism could be described this way as well.
Mormonism self-identifies as Christian, while I would argue it is a distinct Abrahamic faith in its own right.
It has its own orthodoxy, and it's own heterodox spinoffs (some of which are pretty poor regarding ethics or human freedom, vis-a-vis their treatment of women and racial minorities)
Is it an "authentic" religion? Are its spinoffs authentic?
What is the measure by which such a thing is judged?
 
Perennialists and the Baha'i disagree on a number of points, but the most significant in this regard and fundamental to Perennialism is that no religion revises, corrects, updates or completes any other, and at the level of forms, at the level of religions manifestation, no one religion speaks for them all, or acts as a kind of umbrella religion over all the others, so that all the others should conform themselves to its dogmas and doctrines.
Isn't that kind of a challenge to the Abrahamic family of religions in general? Does Christianity not consider itself the update to or the successor to or the fulfillment of the Judaism of Jesus? Or to supersede the Pharisaic religion in some way? Does Islam not consider itself an update to Christianity? Then neither Baha'i nor Mormonism are doing anything outlandish but just following the family tradition...

I have absolutely seen things that say Christianity is the fulfillment or supercession of all other religions - missionary materials. Are the missionaries or theologians responsible for such writings poorly understanding Christianity and its role in world religion? Does Christian theology not insist on being the final one stop shop and the only source of salvation? And AFAIK do not the theologians of Islam think this about their faith as well?
 
The many radii are the revelations or dispensations of the many religions. No radii is better or worse than any other radii. This is fundamental. Like light from the sun – a universal motif well known to the Baha'i, the light originates at the centre, and shines out.
This does make sense, however, is it not in direct conflict with certain claims of exclusivity made by Christianity and Islam (possibly other religions) as being the only path to salvation?
 
Does Christian theology not insist on being the final one stop shop and the only source of salvation? And AFAIK do not the theologians of Islam think this about their faith as well?
Yes .. that is the Orthodox views .. they both interpret their Scriptures in this manner.
..but then, Judaism does not recognize either of them.

..and atheism rejects the lot!
 
This does make sense, however, is it not in direct conflict with certain claims of exclusivity made by Christianity and Islam (possibly other religions) as being the only path to salvation?
In my understanding, the "only" path to salvation is belief in monotheism .. the authority
of G-d.
Different groups/creeds might claim that their way is the only way, but this relies on their
interpretation.
 
"The link that 'Abdu'l-Bahá forges between Christianity and the Bahá'í Faith is established by the fact that Bahá'u'lláh renewed, reiterated and reinvigorated the moral teachings of Christ "in the most complete form and deposited them in the hearts of men". (emphasis mine) The statement "in the most complete form" encapsulates the second definition of supersessionism, which is 'fulfilment theology'.
The words you underlined are not there in the original. It reads, at this point,
و حضرت بهاء اللّه تأسيس سنوحات رحمانيّه باکمل وجوه فرمود

دين ابداً تغيير ندارد زيرا حقيقت است و حقيقت تغيير و تبديل ندارد
which is to say,
"Baha'u'llah endorsed the foundations of divine guidance in toto. Religion never changes, for it is the truth, and truth does not change or alter."
 
Progressive revelation can be seen not as the Source changing ...
... OK ...

I feel myself getting drawn back into a long and ultimately pointless discussions about 'what I believe v what you believe' ... I've tried to avoid this, but it's too-easy a rabbit-hole of mine, too ingrained a habit, and I see it now as an unfortunate one.

So it's easy for me to fall down, and yet it's a kind of discussion that increasingly I see as just a massive waste of time, when there are other things one could more fruitfully spend one's time on.

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In thinking about this question, and I apologise here and now for raising the point of supersessionism, that it was by circuitous means that I happened upon a YouTube video of David Bentley Hart in conversation with Rainn Wilson (on the DBH subscription-only Substack) – and it turns out that @Ahanu actually posted the video here two years ago. I saw it, meant to watch it ... and never did.

And now I have.

And what strikes me first, although these two are 'old friends' and that immediately puts the dialogue on a different footing, is that they can discuss their own faith positions without the need to criticise or attack the other – I said at the time:
"Yes, two old friends steering well away from anything contentious"

And I stand by that, the contentious points were clearly avoided, in a dialogue that sought the concord rather than discord – so for this reason I'm withdrawing from debate which is simply one side pointing out the various errors, faults and failings of the other. Nothing constructive is to be found there.

In the process of revising attitudes and opinions, I probably have a different view of the issues than I had yesterday, and am not closed to discussion, but will not pursue any dialogue in the way that has historically been the case.
 
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Does Christian theology not insist on being the final one stop shop and the only source of salvation?
Yes, that historically was the position, up to Vatican II

Nostra Aetate – The Declaration on the relation of the Church to non-Christian Religions – proclaimed by Pope Paul VI in 1965, is one of the revolutionary documents of Vatican II (and a source of great uproar).

Paragraph 2 states, that in all religions – such as (but not exclusively) Judaism, islam, Hinduism and Buddhism:
The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men.

Further:
The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons (and daughters), that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.

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So, again, I stand corrected by my own faith. I have shown irreverence, a lack of prudence and a lack of love and a collaborative spirit.

Mea culpa.

(If anyone wishes to discuss the declaration further, I suggest we take it over to the Christian board)
 
This is really fascinating. Where would I read more that explains that concept in particular?
Um, I suppose The Transcendent Unity of Religions by Schuon?

This is also fascinating - where can I read more in depth about this?
I'm afraid that's straight off the tip of my pen, as it were.

It's distilled from my years of reading the Perennialists. It's probably said in there somewhere, but I can't remember.

What are the criteria by which that is determined?
I'm not sure there is one.

Many if not most religions are a heretical spinoff of another religion -
Yes, the tend to be born out of their cultural milieu.

Sometimes people who are not spiritually inclined at all have lives of loss and loneliness, for a bajillion different reasons.
I'm not saying that the one is dependent on the other.

I feel like there's an all-or-nothing or black-and-white thinking approach here
This is probably old patterns in me coming to the fore. There was a time, 70s-80s or thereabouts, when everybody wanted to be a mystic. It was the cool thing to be ... my point then was something like the idea that the 'Path' is not necessarily a gentle incline through grassy meadows ... sometimes, and for some people, it's a narrow passage, with sheer rock on one side and a sheer drop into the abyss on the other.

This was a time when I was heavily engaged in Hermetic occultism. There are things I experienced in those days I do not treat lightly.

I suppose a simpler way of putting it is there's nothing romantic about the 'spiritual path' as understood by the 'spiritual traditions' – it's a rigorous path of detachment, asceticism and self-denial. It's like 'The Dark Night of the Soul' – whatever it is, there's nothing pleasant about it.

There's an old martial arts story about a young and gifted swordsman who sought out a master to polish his skill.
"How long will it take?"
"Ten years."
"What if I train twice as hard, for twice as long?"
"Twenty years."

To the extent that belief is involved or required - well that changes the shape of things considerably doesn't it?
I think the great spiritual masters – Rumi and Echhart, Shankara and Ibn'Arabi and the like, all state 'faith' as an absolute pre-condition.
 
Yes, that historically was the position, up to Vatican II

Nostra Aetate – The Declaration on the relation of the Church to non-Christian Religions – proclaimed by Pope Paul VI in 1965, is one of the revolutionary documents of Vatican II (and a source of great uproar).

Paragraph 2 states, that in all religions – such as (but not exclusively) Judaism, islam, Hinduism and Buddhism:
The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men.

Further:
The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons (and daughters), that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.
This is a quote I have always liked. It has been quoted many times in many discussions.

From a Baha'i perspective much of it mirrors what is found in the Baha'i Writings. I would offer though, a lot more can be read into it than was intended.

I personally see it was stated, but worded to still maintain a barrier in acceptance.

Regards Tony
 
The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true ..
Many Gods and Goddesses? What is true and what is false? That Jesus was son of that One God or that Bahaollah was a manifestation of that One God? Good and Holy according to whom? Christians or Bahais? Or Hindus and Buddhists? For whom both these statements are not true. It is not an argument, it is a question.
 
What is true and what is false?
"So Pilate said to him, “Are you then a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. I was born for this, and for this have I come into the cosmos: that I might testify to the truth; everyone who belongs to the truth hearkens to my voice.” Pilate says to him, “What is truth?” (John 18:37-38).

That is the question, question, and in the end, it's a matter of conviction. Search the heart for the answer.
 
From a Baha'i perspective much of it mirrors what is found in the Baha'i Writings. I would offer though, a lot more can be read into it than was intended.

I personally see it was stated, but worded to still maintain a barrier in acceptance.
It's inevitable that we are in the habit of reading and interpreting texts in our own favour – and there were those within the Curia and the Catholic Church as a whole who were scathing in their criticism of the document and immediately sought to erect barriers against its promulgation and acceptance.

Likewise there were those outside the Church who offered a range of responses, from, "Then what is it to be Catholic?" to "A leopard never changes it spots."
 
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