Scholarly discussion about changes in biblical texts

What were the criteria they used to make those assessments? Do you know?
I'm no seminar historian, so I'm largely following wiki on their process.

The voting went as follows:
Jesus undoubtedly said this or something very like it.
Jesus probably said something like this.
Jesus did not say this, but the ideas contained in it are close to his own.
Jesus did not say this; it represents the perspective or content of a later or different tradition.

(The five Gospels : the search for the authentic words of Jesus : new translation and commentary p36-37)

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Take the Beatitudes of Matthew 5:3-12:

Congratulations to the poor in spirit!
Heaven’s domain belongs to them.
Congratulations to those who grieve!
They will be consoled.

Congratulations to the gentle!
They will inherit the earth.

Congratulations to those who hunger and thirst for justice!
They will have a feast.

Congratulations to the merciful!
They will receive mercy.
Congratulations to those with undefiled hearts!
They will see God.
Congratulations to those who work for peace!
They will be known as God's children.

Congratulations to those who have suffered persecution for the sake of justice!
Heaven's domain belongs to them.
Congratulations to you when they denounce you and persecute you and spread malicious gossip about you because of me. Rejoice and be glad Your compensation is great in heaven, Recall that this is how they persecuted the prophets who preceded you.”


Of the nine 'congratulations' here, none are certain, only three as probable, the last two as not His words, but based on His ideas, and the other four He did definitely not say ... and quite how the Seminar arrived at 'congratulations' ...

The commentary (p139) says:
"Congratulations! In these so-called beatitudes (my emphasis – they're not 'blessings' in the eye of the Seminar), Jesus declares that certain groups are in God’s special favor. “Blessed” is an archaic way of expressing that idea. The Scholars Version has replaced the traditional term, derived from Latin, (the Latin derived from the Greek) with its modern equivalent: “Congratulations!”"

The translation note “Congratulations/Damn” in the “Dictionary of Terms and Sources” (p543) expands these remarks.
"Congratulations replaces the archaic term “Blessed,” and the more recent but less appropriate terms “happy” and “fortunate” in Scholars Version. Jesus declares the poor to be possessors of God's domain. For that, speakers of English would say “Congratulations” "

I don't think the English would, not if they meant to imply Divine favour – the term "blessed" derives from the Greek μακάριοι, makarios, and translates as 'blessed,' 'happy,' 'fortunate,' 'prosperous,' but originally with a connotation of divine or heavenly bliss. Strong's Concordance has: "μακάριοι makarios, from mak-, 'become long, large' – properly, when God extends His benefits (the advantages He confers); blessed."

Clearly 'congratulations' does not infer God's favour... so a radical departure from the original text.

The commentary reads:
"Matthew's versions of the poor, weeping, and hungry sayings were designated pink, rather than red, because the reasons for congratulations, in two instances, have already been interpreted as referring to religious virtues rather than to social and economic conditions."
(The Seminar dismisses Jesus speaking in terms of 'spiritual virtue'.)

"Sayings about real poverty and actual hunger are more likely to have been “spiritualized” by the community than aphorisms about virtue turned back into distressed circumstance."
(Here the assertion that Jesus was not a spiritual teacher?)

"Into the list he inherited, Matthew introduces four congratulations not found in either Luke (Q) or Thomas. To commend the meek, the merciful, those with undefiled hearts, and those who work for peace is quite different from congratulating the poor, the hungry, and the weeping.
(So Jesus never said this at all?)

"These additional beatitudes offer reward for virtue rather than relief from distress. People normally expect virtue to be rewarded; and the virtues in question are well known and widely accepted among Judeans of the period. There is no surprise, no reversal, no paradox. In sum, these sayings are not characteristic of Jesus."
(So Jesus must speak in terms of surprise, reversal, paradox, to be considered genuine. We can see the Seminar's Jesus as first and foremost, a sociological, rather than a spiritual, voice.)

"Further, Matt 5:5 is simply a paraphrase of Ps 37:11; Matt 5:8 is based on Ps 24:3-6. There are numerous precedents for the commendation of those who are agents of mercy or peace. Matthew has amplified the list by borrowing common lore and putting it on the lips of Jesus."
(No chance then that Jesus might also be well versed in the Hebrew Scriptures and was using them Himself?)

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Following on in Matthew, we have this famous 'Salt of the Earth' discourse (p139):
"You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its zing, how will it be made salty? It then has no further use than to be thrown out and stomped on. You are the light of the world. A city sitting on top of a mountain can't be concealed. Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a bushel basket but on a lampstand, where it sheds light for everyone in the house. That's how your light is to shine in the presence of others, so they can see your good deeds and acclaim your Father in the heavens.”

Commentary:
"The first salt saying is Matthew’s creation; he has remodeled a simple saying about salt that has lost its saltiness (Mark 9:50a/Luke 14:34-35) into a saying about Christian presence in the world. The saying as it now stands commends Christians as the salt of the earth and thus reflects the social outlook of the later community. As a parallel to “You are the salt of the earth,” Matthew has created the saying in 5:14a: “You are the light of the world.” Jesus himself rejected insider/outsider discriminations of this sort: he included outsiders such as sinners and toll collectors, along with other “undesirables,” among his companions. As a consequence, the Fellows of the Jesus Seminar designated Matt 5:13a black.

It goes on in the same vein, stripping out all spiritual assertion or implication, in favour of a 'social outlook' ... it seems to me that once you strip out text as they do, what's left is pretty bland?

It's hard to see why His followers gave their lives for such an anodyne message?

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The views of the Seminar were shaped by the 'extreme' liberal views of its founders. I say 'extreme' because the position was so left-field as to be the opposite pole of extreme right-wing conservative Christianity – and I can appreciate theirs was a reaction to exactly that, and that's no bad thing, if we look at where Conservative Christianity in the US stands today.

But many liberal scholars distanced themselves from the Seminar – and the Seminar did itself a disservice by courting publicity. had it stayed within the campus world of scholarship, there might have been convivial debate – N.T. Wright, who is notably critical of the Seminar, is a close friend of one of its members. Others, Crossan and the like, have debated their position in scholarly circles without the hoo-ha.

And for balance, David Bentley Hart says much the Seminar would delight in, regarding Jesus' sociology, but Hart's Jesus is nonetheless a spiritual figure, the Son of God, whereas the Seminar as a body is anti-spiritual, anti-mystical – there were no miracles, there was no Transfiguration, no Resurrection, and so on.

In the end, 80% of the Gospels are rejected as inauthentic. 80%.

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Inevitably, and inescapably, the Seminar rejects those materials they see as "nontypical" of Jesus – not on the basis of external evidence – but on their own image of what He surely must have been – a sociopolitical prophet who happens to mirror the liberal concerns of the last quarter of the 20th century ...
 
I'm no seminar historian, so I'm largely following wiki on their process.
I think I had the book on it out of the library back when. I remember thinking it was interesting but the same questions applied - by that I mean the questions that always come up in my head when hardline fundamentalists make declarations - "How do you know" "What do you base that on" and just general questions about the nuances and intricacies of translation and original context.
 
Just had a quick look –

In Mark, the only thing undoubtedly said by Jesus is the famous 'Render unto Caesar' verse, translated as "Pay the Emperor what belongs to the Emperor, and God what belongs to God!" (12:17, it's in Thomas as well.)

John, as you might expect, is even more radical.

There is nothing in John He undoubtedly said.

He probably said something like:
"A prophet gets no respect on his own turf" (4:43, it's in Thomas as well.)

He didn't say, but it contains ideas close to His:
"I swear to God, unless the kernel of wheat falls to the earth and dies, it remains a single seed; but if it dies, it produces a great harvest. Those who love life lose it, but those who hate life in this world will preserve it for unending, real life." (12:24)

"I swear to God, if they welcome the person I send, they welcome me; and if they welcome me, they welcome the one who sent me.” (12:20)

All the major Jesus discourses in John, He definitely did not say.
 
Just had a quick look –

In Mark, the only thing undoubtedly said by Jesus is the famous 'Render unto Caesar' verse, translated as "Pay the Emperor what belongs to the Emperor, and God what belongs to God!" (12:17, it's in Thomas as well.)

John, as you might expect, is even more radical.

There is nothing in John He undoubtedly said.

He probably said something like:
"A prophet gets no respect on his own turf" (4:43, it's in Thomas as well.)

He didn't say, but it contains ideas close to His:
"I swear to God, unless the kernel of wheat falls to the earth and dies, it remains a single seed; but if it dies, it produces a great harvest. Those who love life lose it, but those who hate life in this world will preserve it for unending, real life." (12:24)

"I swear to God, if they welcome the person I send, they welcome me; and if they welcome me, they welcome the one who sent me.” (12:20)

All the major Jesus discourses in John, He definitely did not say.
How is this determined?

By different and more reliable criteria than that used by the Jesus seminar?

Or wait - are you saying these are things determined or supposedly determined BY the Jesus Seminar? 🤔
 
Or wait - are you saying these are things determined or supposedly determined BY the Jesus Seminar? 🤔
Oops, yes ... in my head, I was just continuing the conversation ... 🫣 ... Yes, these are the texts one can reliably accept as being said by Jesus.

Going on, in Matthew we have –

"... Don’t react violently against the one who is evil: when someone slaps you on the right cheek, turn the other as well. When someone wants to sue you for your shirt, let that person have your coat along with it. Further, when anyone conscripts you for one mile, go an extra mile. Give to the one who begs from you; and don’t turn away the one who tries to borrow from you." (5:39-42)
Although it needs be pointed out that Christ was not in the habit of turning the other cheek ...

"Love your enemies" (5:44)

"Our Father," (6:9) The rest of the Lord's Prayer is dubious, if not refuted.

"Heaven’s imperial rule is like leaven which a woman took and concealed in fifty pounds of flour until it was all leavened." (13:33)

Aside:
One might reasonable assume an agenda here – the most common translation of "βασιλεία (basileia) οὐρανῶν (ouranos) is 'the Kingdom of Heaven'. Technically the term for 'imperial' is αυτοκρατορικός (autokratorikos), so the translation is not technically or literally correct – and I would argue, if the aim is common English as understood today – then 'the Kingdom of Heaven' makes more sense, as 'the Empire of Heaven' has no historical reference. They just want to get away from the mystical idea – even though just about everyone in Jesus' day was way more mystically-minded than we are today ...

"For Heaven’s imperial rule is like a proprietor who went out the first thing in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard... " (20:1-15)
The parable in almost its entirety – it's all genuine Jesus until the end, Jesus probably didn't say "The last will be first and the first last" (v16a) – this is recorded in three sources, but doesn't make the cut, and ends up 'expressing an idea Jesus might have had'. The final couplet to v16 "For many are called, but few chosen." is not even recorded, as it was missing from some texts (its in parentheses in scholars' translations).

"Pay the emperor what belongs to the emperor, and God what belongs to God!” (22:21, the mistranslation I noted above, and again, while claiming 'common English', the term Caesar makes more sense.)

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Poor old Luke only gets the red bead when he repeats what's red in Mark or Matthew. There's one notable exception, and that's the Parable of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10:30-35 – that's voted authentic in its entirety.

Why? There's no parallel in other traditions, it's unique to Luke. The Seminar note explains:

"The imagery of the parable itself draws on the longstanding animosity between Judeans and Samaritans. The parable subverts the negative, stereotyped identity of the Samaritan and throws the conventional distinction between “us” and “them” into question... after two representatives of the established religion have ignored him, (he) has stepped across a social and religious boundary. Jesus’ audience, which was made up of Judeans, would have viewed the story through the eyes of the victim in the ditch: the parable prompts them to think of the identification of their neighbor as a different ethnic group. The possibility of another kind of social world has come into view."

This is the Seminar's view – that Jesus was principally something of a sociopolitical anarchist of peace. Why they are certain Jesus said this, rather than perhaps something like it, or the parable expresses his ideas, shows the a priori assumption of Jesus the Seminar shared – it's treated as authentic because despite having no supporting attestation, and despite being so like the Lucan narrative refuted elsewhere ... it speaks to their view of Jesus as a socially provocative figure, so it can be regarded as genuine ... go figure ...

The Gospel of Luke is known as "The Gospel of Social Justice" due to Luke's concern for the marginalised in society. It's there from the start, and oppressed, the peasant and the poor, the outsider ... Zachary and Elizabeth (Ch.1), Simeon and Anna (Ch.2). At the nativity it's Luke who has the angels announce the Incarnation to shepherds in the field, they are the first on the scene (Matthew has the Three Wise Men). When Peter cuts off the guard's ear when Jesus is arrested, it's Luke who has Him put it back on ... Luke’s constructed narratives highlight Jesus' challenge of the existing social order, so why this parable, without support, suggesting a complete creation, is not regarded as 'sounds like what Jesus would say' or 'expressing his ideas', but as 'He said this' ... go figure ...

Likewise the 'Parable of the Steward' (Ch.16) gets the vote of authenticity ... and that's it.

As a final word, regarding the Eucharist at the Last Supper, Mark gets a "Jesus did not say this, but it represents something of his ideas", while Matthew and Luke get a "Jesus definitely did not say this" ... even though it's there in Paul (1 Corinthians 11:23-25) – again, assuming that Paul is the oldest (c. 53-57CE), Paul made this up, and then Mark made it up, and then Matthew, and then Luke; all adding bits, but all saying essentially the same thing, which the Seminar denies Jesus saying.

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The Seminar chair, Robert Funk, intended a deconstruction and reconstruction of Christianity, a 'historical Jesus' that sits right in the minds of the left-wing liberal climate of 1980s North America.

A rational, anti-mystical, humanitarian Christianity, neither God not spiritually-oriented, to replace all that's gone before.

The appeal of the Seminar, I think, was that it spoke to the liberal wing of 80s America – its sociopolitical and anti-institutional concerns. Funk championed Jesus as an itinerant, cynic philosopher – an outsider challenging the status quo. He sits well within The Wild One's world, when Mildred asks, "Hey Johnny, what are you rebelling against?" Johnny replies, "Whadda you got?"

Today he'd be an Influencer, delivering short, snappy aphorisms. Funk declared Jesus to be a "secular sage who satirised the pious and championed the poor." He also commented, "Jesus was perhaps the first stand-up Jewish comic."

Problem: Was Jesus not a Jew?
The first century Jews lived within an all-encompassing narrative, the Seminar dismisses all of that. The Seminar Jesus stands outside the Bible, not within it.

Problem: If not then, when?
By decontextualising Jesus, to present a Jesus to suit a contemporary liberal ideology, the Seminar presents a secular sage, and without historical context, the story inescapably assumes contemporary mores. Hence the appeal of the Gospel of Thomas; the Seminar delights in the very problem it presents to scholarship – being a list of logia, it's a set of enigmatic aphorisms that are enigmatic because they do not sit comfortably within a known school or spirituality – hence they've been claimed to be all and sundry over the centuries.

Problem: The Cross
For what reason was Jesus crucified? The Seminar refutes the idea of a Messiah. Being a sage, a cynic or a comedian was not enough to get you arrested and crucified.
 
That's been thoroughly discredited now by scholars ... no-one seriously stands by it today, do they?
It's hard to grade the authenticity of a hadith. You can formulate criteria for it, but if they are hard and formal, they may be misleading, and others are very subjective.
In Islam hadith science, we have the isnad criterion: scholars who reported the hadith had to tell the entire chain A narrated from B narrated from C narrated from D that E said that the Prophet (p.b.u.h) said or did...
Seems to be quite objective, but the second criterion is whether A and B and C and D and E are supposed to be reliable.
Still, there are other criteria such as whether it conflicts with the Quran or other hadith, which are often overlooked.

In the Bible, there's no such tradition. The Christians have chosen scriptures estimating the reliability of the author and the likelihood of that the claimed author is really the author. Finally it came out in early days that the Epistle to the Hebrews was not written by Paul, 2Peter hasn't been written by Peter, the authenticity of the Revelation has been questioned since the beginning and, in the 18th century, it's been analysed that Matthew cannot be the author of the Gospel account named after him. Nevertheless, they were kept in the Bible because of their theological quality and because they have at least been written within 100 years after Jesus (p.b.u.h).

For the Torah, it's even more difficult; the claim that Moses (p.b.u.h) wrote it is unrealistic, but on who wrote when on what basis, we can only make theories that can be sustained but never be proven.

The question whether what we read is authentic is important, but it can't be answered in a concise way.
 
Oops, yes ... in my head, I was just continuing the conversation ... 🫣 ... Yes, these are the texts one can reliably accept as being said by Jesus.
But I guess that means other scholars HAVE been able to determine, with more reliability than the Jesus Seminar, which sayings are thought to be authentic and which are not as likely to be.
 
But I guess that means other scholars HAVE been able to determine, with more reliability than the Jesus Seminar, which sayings are thought to be authentic and which are not as likely to be.
The issue that critics of the Seminar focussed on was not which are and which aren't, but the means of determining which are and which aren't.

In any field of research, that methodology would be dismissed as 'bad science'.

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The major voices of the Seminar, Funk, Crossan and Borg, were acknowledged scholars who sat on panels and dialogued with other scholars. Their critics might not hold their views, but they don't attack them as individuals.

For example Bart Ehrman applauded the Seminar's approach of a critical review of the New Testament, but strongly disagreed with their conclusions.

Hart's 'Christian rabble' as he referred to the early Church, is in a sense a more extreme view of a communal ekklesia than the Seminar's, but one equally deeply mystical, and that mysticism underwrote and underpinned their anti-establishmentarian attitude – they were an apocalyptic commune expecting the end of the world in the near future – Paul, the earliest of sources, had to contend with the fact that it hadn't happened!
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A major factor in all this is that the Seminar courted the media and announced their 'sensational' position as definitive. In any normal course of events, the Seminar would have been construed for what it was, a view from the far-left liberal wing of biblical research. But because it became a media 'thing', the attention paid to it, and its critics, was disproportionate.

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Contemporary Jewish commentaries on Jesus have done much to recover the 'Jewishness' of Jesus, and Christian commentaries are obliged to take notice of them these days ... but those Jewish scholars would, I think, reject the Seminar's Jesus as being essentially non-Jewish.
 
Oh, biscuits! (Those with grandkids, or happen to watch Bluey anyway, will understand.)

I do most humbly apologise – I misread your comment, missing the 'in the Bible' and, of course, you are right.
 
I'm just going to point out that the Gospel of Thomas was first found in the trash. Someone literally tossed it in the trash and we found it over a thousand years later. Must not have thought it was too important or that it was even legitimate.
 
I'm just going to point out that the Gospel of Thomas was first found in the trash. Someone literally tossed it in the trash and we found it over a thousand years later. Must not have thought it was too important or that it was even legitimate.
And... What do you think that means?

A lot of archeology is ultimately done on trash heaps.

As to the value of the item, and whether its position in a trash heap reflects on its worth:
Depends on who put it in whose trash, when, and for what reason.

Something being dismissed or discarded doesn't mean something is necessarily objectively ungood.
Things get thrown away all the time, mistakenly or maliciously.
Rough drafts get thrown away.
Excess copies get thrown away.
Letters that make you mad get thrown away.
Material gets supressed.
All of it useful for later archeologists, and any textual scholar who can still read the text.
 
I'm just going to point out that the Gospel of Thomas was first found in the trash. Someone literally tossed it in the trash and we found it over a thousand years later. Must not have thought it was too important or that it was even legitimate.
Difficult to say –

The first find was the Coptic Text, as part of the Nag Hammadi Library – a burial of a number of religious texts. That dates from around 340CE.

The 'trash' find refers to fragments discovered at a rubbish site at Oxyrhynchus (modern el-Bahnasa).

Academics have collated and transcribed over 5,000 documents, about 1 to 2% of what is estimated to be at least half a million papyri still remaining to be conserved, transcribed, deciphered and catalogued.

Most are legal documents – census-returns, tax-assessments, court-records, sales, leases, wills, bills, accounts, etc., as well as private letters.

But it's estimated that 10% of the recovered materials are literary in nature – some literary works previously thought lost. Many of the texts were unknown to scholars. Sources identified include Plato, Euclid, Menander, Sophocles and others, some thought lost. A historical work known as the Hellenica Oxyrhynchia revealed new information about antiquity, a work praised for its style and accuracy.

There are also a number of fragments identified from the Old and New Testament, both the canonical and apocryphal books. A few 'gospel' fragments not identified as belonging to any known work.
 
Difficult to say –

The first find was the Coptic Text, as part of the Nag Hammadi Library – a burial of a number of religious texts. That dates from around 340CE.

The 'trash' find refers to fragments discovered at a rubbish site at Oxyrhynchus (modern el-Bahnasa).
Small correction: the Oxyrhynchos papyri of Th were found first and are estimated to be earlier as well.
 
Small correction: the Oxyrhynchos papyri of Th were found first and are estimated to be earlier as well.
First ... can I ask you to be my editor? 🤣 This is the third time you have politely and discreetly corrected my errors (the 2nd was the plural feminine Elohim – @RabbiO got me off the hook on a technicality, but it was my mistake ... )

I never realised the Oxyrhynchos find was first, but it is indeed older, and comparison of the Greek with the Coptic had led scholars to assume a Coptic reworking. Its a shame only fragments have turned up so far, but with a wealth of materials yet to translate, who knows ...
 
And... What do you think that means?

A lot of archeology is ultimately done on trash heaps.

As to the value of the item, and whether its position in a trash heap reflects on its worth:
Depends on who put it in whose trash, when, and for what reason.

Something being dismissed or discarded doesn't mean something is necessarily objectively ungood.
Things get thrown away all the time, mistakenly or maliciously.
Rough drafts get thrown away.
Excess copies get thrown away.
Letters that make you mad get thrown away.
Material gets supressed.
All of it useful for later archeologists, and any textual scholar who can still read the text.
Just pointing out the fact. If it were sacred, I'd wonder why it was in the trash. It's not like they had copy machines back then. Copies of books, especially scripture, were highly coveted. It doesn't mean it was truly fake, but it is one of many arrows pointing in that direction.
 
Just pointing out the fact. If it were sacred, I'd wonder why it was in the trash. It's not like they had copy machines back then. Copies of books, especially scripture, were highly coveted. It doesn't mean it was truly fake, but it is one of many arrows pointing in that direction.
I don't know why or how it ended up there. I don't know if any of the scholars know or could know.
I can think of all sorts of reasons right off the top, but I'm just guessing
As I pointed out, sometimes materials were suppressed by opponents, so they would destroy or discard them.
People throw away stuff they dislike even if they aren't persecuting per se.
Imagine something thinking their kid was in a cult and jettisoning their books.
People who were trying to hide things THEY considered sacred hid them in odd places.
When people die, their stuff gets thrown out.
People throw out stuff they are done with if they get something new.
Stuff gets thrown out by mistake by people who don't know their value to someone else.
As I pointed out, first drafts get discarded or drafts with mistakes. I'm sure even then, without copy machines.

As I pointed out, a LOT of archeology is done on trash heaps. That's just the way of it. That's where stuff is FOUND.
I do not know whether or what most archaeologists make of the fact the items they find are in the trash.
Whether or what they extrapolate from that.

I don't know why, but you seem to be dubious almost to the point of being - is it too much to say hostile? to this material?
What is it about it that you would prefer to dismiss or discredit? 🤔 :oops:🧐
 
Just pointing out the fact. If it were sacred, I'd wonder why it was in the trash. It's not like they had copy machines back then. Copies of books, especially scripture, were highly coveted. It doesn't mean it was truly fake, but it is one of many arrows pointing in that direction.
I just checked with my husband who was an archaeology major back in the day and who has kept up with the field.
He confirmed it was the norm that most archaeological finds were in trash heaps.
He said that archaeologists do try to extrapolate from every bit of evidence they find.
However he also said that it is not the consensus or even common to infer that an item wasn't important because it was found in a trash heap.
He said that archaeologists reason that everything or nearly everything gets thrown away at some point.

It's old, broken, damaged, somebody dies, something is held onto for decades and at some point somebody tosses great grandpa's stuff out, natural disaster or neglect or erosion crumbled the house or storage building, etc...

What is the old saying? One man's trash is another man's treasure?;) 😌 🧐
 
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