S
Silas
Guest
What verses in the Bible do people get purgatory from?
Purgatory?
- Thread starter robocombot
- Start date
Dondi
Well-Known Member
I Corinthians 3:11-15, for one.
S
Silas
Guest
Dondi, you believe in purgatory? The verses you gave me, by the way, is dealing with the subject of a believer's motives. If his works are done in the wrong motives, it will be counted as either, straw, or wood, or hay, at the believer's judgement. Look at the verses in closely in context, you'll see that the fire tests a man's service, of what sort it is. The man is saved despite the fact that his works are consumed by the fire.
"All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. This is because unless they are perfect they will not enter heaven because in the book of Revelation 21:27 St John Says "Nothing unclean shall enter it" (referring to heaven) .
From this alone one would clearly see that to say that pergatory doesn't exist would be foolish because Which among us, can claim to be free of selfishness, even at the moments of our deaths? this would then mean that only the perfect people enter heaven and you can imagine how few people are perfect . Few doctrines are clearer in Scripture than the necessity of absolute holiness in order to enter heaven. On this, Protestants and Catholics are in total agreement. The word purgatory is derived from the Latin purgatorio, ("cleansing," "purifying") in Hebrew its Sheol.
Purgatory is the name given to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned (hell). This is shown by St Paul who says: "But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as THROUGH FIRE." (I Corinthians 3:15) It should also be noted that the Greek word "houtos" ("yet so") in 1 Cor 3:15 is an adverb modifying the verb "sotheesetai" ("shall be saved") and points to how the man is saved, i.e., by fire This brings out the idea that Christ will someday judge the work of the Christian to determine its value, and that some Christians will suffer for their bad works done on earth but still be saved by fire. Take a look at 1 Corinthians 5:5, where Paul condemns a man living in sin with his step-mother. Paul says, "with the power of the Lord Jesus he is to be handed over to Satan, so that his sensual body may be destroyed, but his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
Also The apostle Peter Later Confirms this when he says "... so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though TESTED BY FIRE, may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 1:7) Also he later says that Christ Preached to these soles that were in the captive in the underworld when he says: 1 Peter 3:19-20 ". . . he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water".
St Matthew also makes this know
Matthew 5:22) "But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, "You fool!" shall be liable to the fire of Hell. Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will NEVER GET OUT TILL YOU HAVE PAID THE LAST PENNY". Here is one of our lord's parables referring to purgatory because he is the Judge you will One day stand before and he is the one who will past the sentence but here he says you Will get out of the prisons that in which you are placed but not until you have paid the last penny . What is the presumption? Once you pay the last penny, you are going to get out. Where are you going to go then? To hell? No. You paid the last penny. You're going to enter into the blessing at that point but only after you've paid the fine. {see also Luke 12:58-59} We also read in the Book of Hebrews that the apostle says: Hebrews 12:29 . . . our God is a consuming fire. Scriptures that are understood to be referring to purgatory are: Mt 5:26; 12:32; 12:36; Luke 12:47-48; James 3:1; 1 Peter 3:19; 4:18, Ecclesiasticus 24:45; 7:37, Philippians 2:10; Jude 23; Hebrews 12:22b; Psalm 141:8; Daniel 12:10; Micah 7:9; Zechariah 9:11; 2 Maccabees 12:44-47; Rv 21:27. Some examples in which temporal punishment for sin is sustained in this life are: Numbers 20:1-13; 1 Chronicles 21:1-17: 2 Samuel 12:1-23; 1 Cor 11:29-30. Some examples of prayer, penitent mourning or concern for safe passage of the dead are: Genesis 50:10; Numbers 20:29; Deuteronomy 34:8; 2 Maccabees 12:44-45; 1 Cor 15:29; 2 Timothy 1:16-18; 4:19.) The fact that Jesus warns his disciples against blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, saying it "will not be forgiven either in this world, nor in the NEXT." (Matthew 12:32) shows us that their is a forgiveness in the next life (purgatory) for some acts/omissions committed by the Christian (namely venial sins) however their are those things (such as sinning against the Holy Ghost) their is no forgiveness for either in this life or the next.
Hebrew Sheol (Greek Hades - netherworld) is not absolutely identical to purgatory (both righteous and unrighteous go there), but it is nevertheless strikingly similar. Sheol is referred to frequently throughout the Old Testament (Deuteronomy 32:22, 2 Samuel 22:6, Psalm 16:10, 18:5, 55:15, 86:13, 116:3, 139:8, Proverbs 9:18, 23:14, Isaiah 5:14, 14:9,15, Ezekiel 31:16-17, 32:21,27). In Jewish apocalyptic literature (in the few hundred years before Christ), the notion of divisions in Sheol is found (for instance, in Enoch 22:1-14).
The Christian hell is equivalent to the New Testament Gehenna or Lake Of Fire. Gehenna was literally the burning ash-heap outside Jerusalem, and was used as the name for hell by Christ (Matthew 5:22,29-30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33, Mark 9:43,45,47, Luke 12:5 - cf. James 3:6). Lake of fire occurs only in Revelation as a chilling description of the horrors of hell into which the damned would be thrown (Revelation 19:20, 20:10,14-15, 21:8).
Philippians 2:10-11 / Revelation 5:3,13 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. If God refuses to receive prayer, praise and worship from the unrepentant sinner (as shown in
salm 66:18, Proverbs 1:28-30, Isaiah 1:15, 59:2, Jeremiah 6:20, Amos 5:21-24, Micah 3:4, Malachi 1:10, John 9:31, Hebrews 10:38), why would He permit the damned to undertake this practice? Furthermore, if God does not compel human beings to follow Him and to enjoy His presence for eternity contrary to their free will, then it seems that He would not - as far as we can tell from Scripture - compel them to praise Him, as this would be meaningless, if not repulsive. Therefore, under the earth must refer to purgatory. Revelation 5:13 especially makes sense under this interpretation, as the praise spoken there does not in any way appear forced, but rather, heartfelt and seemingly spontaneous (which would not be at all expected of persons eternally consigned to hell - see Matthew 8:29, Luke 4:34, 8:28, James 2:19).
Again we also read in: 2 Timothy 1:16-18 May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me - may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day - and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.
Onesiphorus appears to be dead at the time St. Paul writes this letter to Timothy. If that is true, then Paul is praying for the dead .
While Christ was on the cross he had said to one of the criminals "I say to you this day you will be with me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43). This is often used by some to refute the doctrine of purgatory since the thief did not have to spend any time in purgatory but was with Christ in paradise on the same day? In response to this, we know that Jesus was not speaking literally because he did not enter heaven until after his ascension (40 days after the resurrection). This we know because Christ himself declares it to the woman weeping (John 20:17) when he says, "Do not hold on to me for I have not yet returned to the father"(see also Mk 16:19). Further we note that Christ said to the dying thief "this day I say to you", in other words on that particular day Christ was going to affirm something to the thief, namely that he would one day enter heaven. This is often misinterpreted and so it is read as meaning "this day you shall be in Paradise".
Further Jesus himself affirms it saying (John 24:25) "Did not Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory". This shows us that not until he rose from the dead was he to enter into his due glory (heaven). Jesus tells us that he will be in the underworld (sheol) for three days when he declares to the Pharisees " For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the son of man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth "(Matt 12: 40). "
Catholic apolegetics...
v/r
Joshua
Dondi
Well-Known Member
Believers in Christ will be changed in an instant, in a twinkling of an eye, according to I Cor. 15:51-52. However, we will have to give account to God for the things we done while here on earth. I believe that we will have a sense of loss and wastefulness over times we weren't in the Lord's will and mourn for the potential that we coulda, shoulda, woulda had if we lined ourselves in His perfect will for us. Also, nothing we have done will be hidden. So anything we have done wrong to others will be revealed. There will be things that will be embarassing and shameful and those who we affected, we will know and they will know. There will have to be much healing and reconciliation with those we wronged there in heaven. After all, we will have to live with our borthers and sister in Christ for all eternity. But I believe that God will give us the grace to be able to forgive one another. His Love will flow freely through us and we will have a divine love for others such that we can forgive and have compassion and mercy upon those who hurt us and vice versa. All our sins, of course, will be forgiven through the Blood of Christ, but there will still be an accounting to God and the whole family of God.
So in a sense, we will have a purging our all the dross left over ("That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:" - I Peter 1:7). There will be a time of healing, yet joy unspeakable and full of glory.
but do you believe in Purgatory?
Do I believe in the possibility of repentance after death? Yes, for the following reason ...
Do souls need cleansing before heaven?
Yes ... no-one is or can be 'perfect' ... it's all a matter of degree ... Only God alone is good.
Did the early church believe in it or is it a Catholic invention?
The early Church believed the Parousia within their own lifetime ... then believed in those who 'sleep in Christ' as St Paul said. They also believed that all Christians were saints, but by the third century it became obvious that if everyone was a 'saint', then the word was meaningless. There were professed Christians who were, by anybody's book 'very naughty boys', so simply by calling yourself a Christian did not mean you could call yourself a saint.
So doctrine evolves (it is not invented) as we seek to answer fresh challenges presented to us.
Surely nothing impure could enter Heaven?
Can it not? Christ, in heaven, bears the marks of the Cross and the Crown of thorns. So his body is not perfect, it bears its wounds ... the wounds might be 'glorious' by virtue of what is achieved by them, but they nevertheless mar the essential 'purity' of the body ... a pure body doesn't have holes in its extremities or side ... something to dwell upon ...
NOTE:
This is the kind of things theologians are obliged to deal with - questions that no-one else thinks to ask. To assume then, that the question and its answer is an 'invention' is something of a disservice...
Dont we need to repent, either here or hereafter?
This is the crux of the question.
If someone goes to hell, and repents, are they required to remain in hell?
If yes, is that not a 'bad' thing? Do you continue to punish someone even after they have apologised? How can you justify continuing to punish someone, even though they repent of their actions? When do you stop? When you grow tired or bored of punishing them?
Worse still:
If you cannot repent in hell, then what 'virtue' is there in punishment? What is the point? It is a cruel and meaningless action...
Either way, yes or no, it ends up with punishment being administered solely for the pleasure of the one who punishes ... there is no value, positive or negative, for the one being punished ... again, this is a bad thing ...
So theology decided that:
a - the human continues as 'human' and therefore is self-aware and able to make choices and decisions;
b - that the choice or decision made can have an ameliorating effect on the situation;
c - the degree of punishment is subjective in that it marks the distance between what is good, and what has been done - or rather, the punishment suits the crime, else it is indiscriminate;
d - 'purification' or purgation involves stripping away all self-deception, illusion, fantasy ... so that one is faced with the truth of oneself, and not with a 'convenient' truth of one's own fabrication;
e - if one continues to cling to one's illusions, one will continue to suffer;
f - if one surrenders, suffering ceases.
g - 'suffering' is therefore the objective realisation of truth,
h - 'pain' is the subjective realisation of the same.
i - All the above are conclsuions drawn from the fact that God is Good.
+++
When Christ spoke of 'hell' he used the term Gehenna ... despoiled ground outside Jerusalem that was used as a rubbish tip, where the detritus was left to rot, and which, being in the nature of rubbish tips, was probably quite smelly, with the odd fire etc ... He was presenting, in a very graphic image, the idea of a life simply not wanted any more.
This is in contrast to the Hebrew Sheol, a place in which the soul enters a kind of limbic state, because, being disembodied, it has no mode of activity ... so the soul goes into a kind of 'sleep' until the Resurrection at the end of the Age ... Sheol is frightening because a coma is frightening, but Gehenna is more frightening yet, because it implies that if you have lived a worthless life, then there is no place in the afterlife for you.
So he was talking about two things:
a - The very real possibility that death, the extinction of the being, is a reality that can happen immediately upon death;
b - the very real possibility that there is an eschatalogical state in which one is simply 'not wanted' and cast aside until, at the end of the Age, the rubbish is disposed off.
If your whole life is one of fantasy and self deception - and a life steeped in sin involves deceiving one's own conscience first and foremost ... then when that is stripped away ... what remains of 'you' ... there is the very real chance that nothing is left ... that you indeed have ceased to exist ...
As the wise ones say "You become what you think about"
+++
Is the repentent murderer to recieve the same justice as a life long saint?
Yes.
Again, the conscience is striken by the implication of the degree of wrong in the face of truth ... so the sorrow of a saint, or a child, will be 'light' compared to the sorrow of the murderer precisely because, presumably, the murderer was further from the good than the saint, and so will feel the sorrow even more.
+++
There is, it has to be acknowledged ... a very real danger in the Uriah Heep syndrome – an excess of piety which reduces one to a cringing "I am not worthy" which is, in its own way, a sin and a 'guilty pleasure' ...
... those who make a great display of contrition, flaggelant monks, gurus who make a virtue of suffering ... it's a fine line ...
Thomas
Do I believe in the possibility of repentance after death? Yes, for the following reason ...
Do souls need cleansing before heaven?
Yes ... no-one is or can be 'perfect' ... it's all a matter of degree ... Only God alone is good.
Did the early church believe in it or is it a Catholic invention?
The early Church believed the Parousia within their own lifetime ... then believed in those who 'sleep in Christ' as St Paul said. They also believed that all Christians were saints, but by the third century it became obvious that if everyone was a 'saint', then the word was meaningless. There were professed Christians who were, by anybody's book 'very naughty boys', so simply by calling yourself a Christian did not mean you could call yourself a saint.
So doctrine evolves (it is not invented) as we seek to answer fresh challenges presented to us.
Surely nothing impure could enter Heaven?
Can it not? Christ, in heaven, bears the marks of the Cross and the Crown of thorns. So his body is not perfect, it bears its wounds ... the wounds might be 'glorious' by virtue of what is achieved by them, but they nevertheless mar the essential 'purity' of the body ... a pure body doesn't have holes in its extremities or side ... something to dwell upon ...
NOTE:
This is the kind of things theologians are obliged to deal with - questions that no-one else thinks to ask. To assume then, that the question and its answer is an 'invention' is something of a disservice...
Dont we need to repent, either here or hereafter?
This is the crux of the question.
If someone goes to hell, and repents, are they required to remain in hell?
If yes, is that not a 'bad' thing? Do you continue to punish someone even after they have apologised? How can you justify continuing to punish someone, even though they repent of their actions? When do you stop? When you grow tired or bored of punishing them?
Worse still:
If you cannot repent in hell, then what 'virtue' is there in punishment? What is the point? It is a cruel and meaningless action...
Either way, yes or no, it ends up with punishment being administered solely for the pleasure of the one who punishes ... there is no value, positive or negative, for the one being punished ... again, this is a bad thing ...
So theology decided that:
a - the human continues as 'human' and therefore is self-aware and able to make choices and decisions;
b - that the choice or decision made can have an ameliorating effect on the situation;
c - the degree of punishment is subjective in that it marks the distance between what is good, and what has been done - or rather, the punishment suits the crime, else it is indiscriminate;
d - 'purification' or purgation involves stripping away all self-deception, illusion, fantasy ... so that one is faced with the truth of oneself, and not with a 'convenient' truth of one's own fabrication;
e - if one continues to cling to one's illusions, one will continue to suffer;
f - if one surrenders, suffering ceases.
g - 'suffering' is therefore the objective realisation of truth,
h - 'pain' is the subjective realisation of the same.
i - All the above are conclsuions drawn from the fact that God is Good.
+++
When Christ spoke of 'hell' he used the term Gehenna ... despoiled ground outside Jerusalem that was used as a rubbish tip, where the detritus was left to rot, and which, being in the nature of rubbish tips, was probably quite smelly, with the odd fire etc ... He was presenting, in a very graphic image, the idea of a life simply not wanted any more.
This is in contrast to the Hebrew Sheol, a place in which the soul enters a kind of limbic state, because, being disembodied, it has no mode of activity ... so the soul goes into a kind of 'sleep' until the Resurrection at the end of the Age ... Sheol is frightening because a coma is frightening, but Gehenna is more frightening yet, because it implies that if you have lived a worthless life, then there is no place in the afterlife for you.
So he was talking about two things:
a - The very real possibility that death, the extinction of the being, is a reality that can happen immediately upon death;
b - the very real possibility that there is an eschatalogical state in which one is simply 'not wanted' and cast aside until, at the end of the Age, the rubbish is disposed off.
If your whole life is one of fantasy and self deception - and a life steeped in sin involves deceiving one's own conscience first and foremost ... then when that is stripped away ... what remains of 'you' ... there is the very real chance that nothing is left ... that you indeed have ceased to exist ...
As the wise ones say "You become what you think about"
+++
Is the repentent murderer to recieve the same justice as a life long saint?
Yes.
Again, the conscience is striken by the implication of the degree of wrong in the face of truth ... so the sorrow of a saint, or a child, will be 'light' compared to the sorrow of the murderer precisely because, presumably, the murderer was further from the good than the saint, and so will feel the sorrow even more.
+++
There is, it has to be acknowledged ... a very real danger in the Uriah Heep syndrome – an excess of piety which reduces one to a cringing "I am not worthy" which is, in its own way, a sin and a 'guilty pleasure' ...
... those who make a great display of contrition, flaggelant monks, gurus who make a virtue of suffering ... it's a fine line ...
Thomas
Namaste Thomas,
Couple things....seems invention has a bad connotation...
What 'invention' didn't evolve? Somewhere along the way someone has an idea or revelation acts upon it and it becomes part of reality or consciousness...calling it invention by man does not constitute a negative I wouldn't think and isn't denying that the church came up with its dogma is denying the church?
If the reason for purgatory is that we are not perfect, are not good, and only G-d is good, then going through purgatory either makes us good/G-d or isn't doing its job as I perceive what you've written.
So theology decided?? Which theology? Is theology thinking for itself now?
Love the contemplations....thanx.
Couple things....seems invention has a bad connotation...
What 'invention' didn't evolve? Somewhere along the way someone has an idea or revelation acts upon it and it becomes part of reality or consciousness...calling it invention by man does not constitute a negative I wouldn't think and isn't denying that the church came up with its dogma is denying the church?
If the reason for purgatory is that we are not perfect, are not good, and only G-d is good, then going through purgatory either makes us good/G-d or isn't doing its job as I perceive what you've written.
So theology decided?? Which theology? Is theology thinking for itself now?
Love the contemplations....thanx.
M
mee
Guest
its not a bible teaching,
S
Silas
Guest
So you dont believe in an actually place?
Hi Wil –
It's all in the terminology...
What 'invention' didn't evolve?
An 'invention' is something new made by someone ... Is truth an invention?
Somewhere along the way someone has an idea or revelation acts upon it and it becomes part of reality or consciousness...calling it invention by man does not constitute a negative I wouldn't think and isn't denying that the church came up with its dogma is denying the church?
But in that context 'invention' is the wrong term. An insight or an understanding is not an invention... nor, most certainly, is revelation.
Invention in that context smacks of a contrivance.
If the reason for purgatory is that we are not perfect, are not good, and only G-d is good, then going through purgatory either makes us good/G-d or isn't doing its job as I perceive what you've written.
The reason for purgatory is that God is good, so has made an allowance for the 'imperfect' to undergo metanoia, a change of heart, in light of what they have come to know and understand.
By imperfection we mean a moral imperfection.
So theology decided?? Which theology? Is theology thinking for itself now?
You are right, my imprecise terminology. Theology is 'faith seeking understanding' (St Anselm), so I should rather have said:
So the theologians, searching the Word of Scripture, and guided by the light of faith and reason, came to the understanding that ...
Thanks for the brotherly corrective ... I have chosen you to be the Moriarty to my Gryptype-Thynne (cf The Goons) ... If you've never heard The Goons, then that will make no sense whatsoever...
Thomas
(exits left, to strains of The Yingtong Song, and groin)
It's all in the terminology...
What 'invention' didn't evolve?
An 'invention' is something new made by someone ... Is truth an invention?
Somewhere along the way someone has an idea or revelation acts upon it and it becomes part of reality or consciousness...calling it invention by man does not constitute a negative I wouldn't think and isn't denying that the church came up with its dogma is denying the church?
But in that context 'invention' is the wrong term. An insight or an understanding is not an invention... nor, most certainly, is revelation.
Invention in that context smacks of a contrivance.
If the reason for purgatory is that we are not perfect, are not good, and only G-d is good, then going through purgatory either makes us good/G-d or isn't doing its job as I perceive what you've written.
The reason for purgatory is that God is good, so has made an allowance for the 'imperfect' to undergo metanoia, a change of heart, in light of what they have come to know and understand.
By imperfection we mean a moral imperfection.
So theology decided?? Which theology? Is theology thinking for itself now?
You are right, my imprecise terminology. Theology is 'faith seeking understanding' (St Anselm), so I should rather have said:
So the theologians, searching the Word of Scripture, and guided by the light of faith and reason, came to the understanding that ...
Thanks for the brotherly corrective ... I have chosen you to be the Moriarty to my Gryptype-Thynne (cf The Goons) ... If you've never heard The Goons, then that will make no sense whatsoever...
Thomas
(exits left, to strains of The Yingtong Song, and groin)
Dondi
Well-Known Member
More like a period of time, rather than a place. I mean think about it. There are some people who have hurt you and some people that you yourself have hurt. If you've never been reconciled with them, you're not just going to pop up to them in Heaven as if nothing has happened, and say "Hey, Bob, how's it going, praise the Lord!
Suppose for instance that before you got saved, you killed a Christian, leaving behind his wife and three kids. Then, by the grace of God, you become a Christian yourself. When you die and go to, what do you think is going to happen when you meet the Christian you killed? Do you not think that some kind of healing needs to take place? Some exchange of words or solance? Something?
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Thomas said:
This is not directed at Thomas, just thought it captured a key idea for me, namely, what is purgatory?
Anyway, the the growing tension in the Anglican Communion recently (and there's always tension...it's a defining characteristic of our Communion
; it's a good thing, IMO, as long as the tension does not permutate into discord) has lead to the proposal that we adopt a Covenant to act as an overarching instrument of Unity for the worldwide Anglican Communion. In other words, trying to tighten up the guidelines for our responsibilities and relationships to each other, see as we don't have one central authority such as the Pope. And, part of the proposed Covenant directs our attention to the historical 39 Articles adopted by the C of E when it was founded (split off from Rome). Of interest is Article3 XXII., which (to my surprise) is a rejection of the doctrine of Purgatory. However, we do pray for the deceased. When Protestants in general rejected the doctrine of Purgatory, they also stopped saying prayers for the deceased. Yet, to us this seems such a natural thing to do as well still love them and still thus express that love connection through prayer. (Baha'is also pray for the deceased because although there is no state called purgatory, it is believed that the soul continuously progresses toward God in the next world(s), and that our prayers for them assist that process.)
So, what I'm winding my way around to saying is that I think the reason we say prayers for the dead, in addition to being a visible sign of our continued love and relationship with them, is that it does seem to make sense that there can be repentence after death. I thank Thomas for his post on this. In fact, perhaps the most significant chance for repenetence would be at the transition into death, even if we don't believe in an actual state called purgatory, a kind of in-between 'place.'
From the Cornithians reading that has been pointed out by Dondi, and because we know that sin (by definition) can't be part of what enters into the presence of God, there must be something in the transition, some kind of purification (by fire). I don't really think this is a physical fire. Most Episcopalians view hell as a state of separation of God and heaven is reunion with God, and this is the view I have as well. It probably falls short, but it's a model that reflects what I think is Biblical and is in accord with God's nature (God IS love).
During our lifetime, in spite of our baptism, or even if we are not baptized or non-Christians, we sin. We are forgiven this sin through our Christian repentence, but it's still there. In this life we can't really even see all of our sin for what it is, although some of us dwell on this and make it a focal point of belief, I don't think that is expected or necessary. We know it's there, things done and left undone, whether we can bring it to the fore and repent of it, or not.
So, God being Love, and our Creator, and Good, knows this about each of us. When the veils are removed our sin will be there, apparent to us in its fullness for the first time. This is our judgement...facing the immensity of our sin for what it really is. Who, in the face of this, in the presence of our Glorious and perfectly Good God, seeing things clearly for the first time, will not feel the "fire" of fallenenss and separation caused by that sin? And, who would not repent of it? (And who would not need prayer support...an outflow of love, during that?) The gulf between us and our Beloved is hell, even as we know that we are loved and forgiven, crossing the gap must be like fire.
The larger our sin, the larger the gap. The more we've filled that gap by repentence in this life, the more we've been able to practice forgiveness ourselves (giving and recieving), the less 'painful' that gap will be to cross. (I hope you all realize that I am writing metaphorically).
Most important, only that part of us that is Love can make the crossing and be with God. All that is 'sin' must be left behind. How much of oursevles do we want to leave behind?
Why would anyone want to reincarnate, rather than resurrect into a heavenly body, imperishable and with God? Haha, I have my thoughts on the resurrection body as well, but I guess that's for another thread.
S
Silas
Guest
I see no reason in scripture to assume that we will need some sort of healing. Rather, I see manifold evidence that the opposite may be the case, namely that, in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, we will be glorified and perfect as our Father and God is perfect. In Heaven, we will see God as He is and it is this awesome sight that will cause us to forget about our life on earth. I'd love to speak more about what seeing God would be like, but I'm all too aware that nothing I say will suffice or even come close to the reality of infinite joy that we will have when we see our Creator face-to-face. As the Apostle Paul said, "our present suffering are nothing to be compared with the glory that lies ahead." By the way, I highlighted something that I thought was interesting. You mentioned that it is by the grace of God people become Chrisitan. How do you understand that in light of your beleif that man has a self-determining will to become a Christian on his own? Who makes a man a Christian - the man by his faith, or God by his gift of grace and faith?
Dor
Bible Thumper
Exactly 1 corinthians 3:11-15 have nothing to do with purgatory
Dor
Bible Thumper
Mee,
Mark this down we actually agree.
I have one question for all of you that beliefs there is such a place.*well maybe 2*
Why did Jesus die? Why do you limit his righteousness?
Q,
"All who die in Gods grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation, but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."
That is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1030.
The way you had it wrote made it seem you were saying it was from Revelation 21.
Mark this down we actually agree.
I have one question for all of you that beliefs there is such a place.*well maybe 2*
Why did Jesus die? Why do you limit his righteousness?
Q,
"All who die in Gods grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation, but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."
That is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1030.
The way you had it wrote made it seem you were saying it was from Revelation 21.
Dor
Bible Thumper
Just a little thing I noticed from all the posts for purgatory or praying for the dead.
Seems alot of people have it in their mind that they have to do a certain amount of *works*(for lack of a better word) to make up for sin before they can get into heaven.
Sorry but thats what the cross did!
Seems alot of people have it in their mind that they have to do a certain amount of *works*(for lack of a better word) to make up for sin before they can get into heaven.
Sorry but thats what the cross did!
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Hi Dor,
But don't you believe there there will be a judgement, even for believers? I think this is what we are talking about. Not whether there is reunion with God/Heaven for Christians, but what that judgement looks like, and what if anything it means.
Do you believe in repentence in this life? Would you call that a 'work?'
Not debating...just asking.
luna