Man superior to woman?

[bananabrain]

The first fully developed account of her mythology is found in the Alphabet of Ben Sira

so, as i said and as eliezer segal says, the "popular" lilith owes more to the "alphabet" - a dubious document - and to superstition than to any reputable jewish source.

The injustice you perceive maybe in the biblical warning that after the fall, G!D allegedly stated that man (male) would rule over woman (female), and she would desire after him (seek power). However, it was written by people brought up in a patriarchal society (even that long ago).

actually, that's not how we understand it at all. the garden of eden story is about free will and what it means to be truly human, not the framework for "original sin", which is not part of our theology. ramba"n (nahmanides) notes that sexual desire did not exist until after adam and eve gained the "knowledge of good and evil" (and the verb "to know" in hebrew has an intimate, sexual connotation. in other words, the awakening of sexual desire led to the beginning of choice and the beginning of choice led to the beginning of competition and the beginning of competition led to men ruling over women. note that the text did *not* say that it was *commanded* for men to dominate women (or that it was "good"), only that it would happen - as an inevitable consequence. what i should really say is that the ma'aseh bereishit, the Creation story, is probably the most complex and multilayered part of the Torah and, consequently, should not be read literally or without knowledge.

Who do you think wrote 99% of the history books pre 1900 who wrote and translated all scripture texts from all religions yep you got it men, and so it is the divine feminine as been suppressed for aeons of time and to be honest if I was a man I would not be proud of this fact.

one of the things that i find most simplistic and counterproductive is the tendency that people (particularly neopagans) have these days to suggest (based on authors such as merlin stone, anne baring and jules cashford and dug up fertility statues) that in the beginning there was this matriarchal (yet mysteriously egalitarian) utopia where everything was lovely and everyone shared everything, until the horrid patriarchal religions came along with their beards and swords and ruined everything. in short, it is an attack on the "Big Beard In The Sky", followed by its replacement with the "Big Tits In The Earth". needless to say, both are infantile stereotypes with no real basis, historical, archaeological or otherwise - the ancient goddesses were far from exclusively peace-loving and pastoral!

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[KnightoftheRose]

one of the things that i find most simplistic and counterproductive is the tendency that people (particularly neopagans) have these days to suggest (based on authors such as merlin stone, anne baring and jules cashford and dug up fertility statues) that in the beginning there was this matriarchal (yet mysteriously egalitarian) utopia where everything was lovely and everyone shared everything, until the horrid patriarchal religions came along with their beards and swords and ruined everything. in short, it is an attack on the "Big Beard In The Sky", followed by its replacement with the "Big Tits In The Earth". needless to say, both are infantile stereotypes with no real basis, historical, archaeological or otherwise - the ancient goddesses were far from exclusively peace-loving and pastoral!

Lol, I was just talking to my dad about the myth of matriarchy before I read this. You put it down way better than I did...

 

[Sacredstar]

What evidence is there is support this quote below ?

[QUOTE the ancient goddesses were far from exclusively peace-loving and pastoral! [/QUOTE]

The peace loving communites lasted long beyond a matrichial society e.g. the Essenes, and to this day Jewish people have their own peace loving communities don't they?

"The idea that for essentially 2000 years the west has had the knowledge of Christ and has nevertheless maintained unequal scales for the treatment of males and females is an injustice in my mind."

I agree Marsh injustice and anti-love, also against the teachings of the core values of equality given by Christ but yet the CF's just will not accept or see this anti-love is anti-christ - now that is blind faith.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

 

[Faithfulservant]

lol

 

[Dor]

Ok one damn minute here.

I agree Marsh injustice and anti-love, also against the teachings of the core values of equality given by Christ but yet the CF's just will not accept or see this anti-love is anti-christ - now that is blind faith.

Just where in christianity do you see it say women are inferior to men, cause I must admit I might have missed it somewhere. But I think if you really want to look at the way a religion treats its women you can do a hell of alot worse than Christianity.

Im sure if you ask my fiancee she doesnt feel I put her anywhere but right beside me or above me but damn sure not inferior. Of course this is from a CF fool.

 

[Bandit]

I think God did create man and woman equally and to walk side by side. Woman have been very supressed through History. A woman can do everything a man can do. I think God wanted man and woman to work together. She was dominated through history most likely because she is physically weaker than man. She certainly has had to fight for the rights she has today.

The only place I see she is held lower than man is in the five fold ministry. I actually see where she is allowed to do everything in the ministry except be a pastor. For this would put the woman over the man.
It seems to me the church has made this mistake. But not all churches. She can teach, preach, minister, evangelize and do all of it except pastor.

It is clear to me that the woman was created for the man, but the man is also through the woman. It also seems clear to me that the man is the head and woman is the body.

I don't feel that man is superior to woman or that it should be that way or that it should have ever been that way. That is against the bible.
They are equal. To put the woman over the man and make her the head, would also be against the bible.

I probably wont have anything else to say about this. It often turns into a heated unhealthy discussion. I have a lot of compassion for women, I feel they do need more support and credit than they get. In some cases it seems wrong the other way around when the woman rules the household and goes over the man, that is not right either. They are supposed to work together.

I dont know. I did not make us so I just have to accept that is the way God ordained it to be.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Hmmm,

Woman was not taken from Man's head, to be above him, nor from his feet, to be below him, but from his side, to be equal to him. Woman was taken from under man's arm, to be protected by him, and from near his heart, to be loved by him.

Woman is life, and man is the servant of life.


Q

Q you are a poet that was beautiful I REALLY appreciate you.

 

[bananabrain]

What evidence is there is to support this quote below?

the ancient goddesses were far from exclusively peace-loving and pastoral!

wurrrll....there's the eunuch priests of cybele, the dionysian maenads, the various war, hunting and destruction goddesses including bellona, kali, the morrigan, isis, nike, not to mention athene and artemis... i could go on. the only all-female society mentioned in greek myth is the amazons; now admittedly this may be a propaganda job, but it's not one of ours! i might just as well ask you what evidence there is to support the assumption that "G!D was a woman" and that the society stemming from that was "peace-loving"! certainly historians and archaeologists aren't very impressed with the arguments presented so far.

The peace-loving communities lasted long beyond a matricharchal society e.g. the Essenes, and to this day Jewish people have their own peace-loving communities don't they?

firstly, it depends on what you mean by "peace-loving". the essenes were a pretty ascetic, anti-sex, anti-pleasure bunch with a violent theology, so i doubt that their lifestyle would have been all tofu and massages. secondly, i'm not quite sure what contemporary communities you are referring to. every jewish community prays for peace and has done since the beginning of the Exile - "oseh shalom bimromaw, Hu berahamaw ya'aseh shalom 'aleinu we-al qol yisra'el": may G!D Who makes peace on high, set peace upon us and all israel, to which the more left-wing communities add "al qol bnei-adam": upon all humanity.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Sacredstar]

One planet, one people, one heart.

Dear BB

Well I never said GOD was a woman Deepak Chopra did. Just because I quote someone doesn't mean it is my truth, I will throw a pebble in the pond just to see where it ripples out.

Well Plato talked about Atlantis but I am not aloud to discuss such things on this forum. But many people feel, have seen and experienced these times when there was a matrichial society in the sense that ALL energies were enlivened by the divine feminine 1,000's of years prior to ISIS and other GODDESS type energies you mention. I agree with you dear ISIS etc did not bring forth the best qualities of the divine feminine, in fact I will go as far as to say due to her abuse of spiritual energy humanity feel even deeper down dimensional consciousness. I consider the beginning of the fall of humanity was millennia's before ISIS was a twinkle in anyone's eye. ISIS is also not divine mother of Egypt as some claim. Egyptologists confirm Queen Mut the consort of Amen-Ra is Divine Mother of Egypt and the equivalent of our Holy Mother Mary. Hence why Karnac, the largest temple in the world is dedicated to them.

My view is that when we are in denial of the divine feminine we are also in denial of a part of GOD which is also a part of US. Hence why GOD is bringing forth the divine feminine to such a degree during these end times. To ensure that humanity regain that which as been lost down the mists of time so that we can BE whole and emanate love, light and compassion like never before.

GOD is ALL to me.

Blessings in abundance

Sacredstar

 

[iBrian]

Well Plato talked about Atlantis but I am not aloud to discuss such things on this forum.

I hope you mean that you would simply rather not talk about it - I hope I haven't enoucraged you to feel that you are banned from discussing such subjects.

 

[Sacredstar]

Dear Brian

Not at all I am just mindful that this is the Christian forum and I do my utmost to honour without betraying my own soul or GOD.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

 

[bananabrain]

Well I never said G!D was a woman Deepak Chopra did.

it was merlin stone (whose historical credentials are fairly dubious) who i was referring to. i don't think deepak chopra was seriously suggesting that the Divine is *exclusively* female, unless he's more of an idiot than i though. what i think he meant (and what i certainly mean) is that G!D has many attributes which can be *considered* (albeit i actually think this is rather sexist) female, such as nurturing and sharing - and, probably, being nice to small furry animals, while you're at it.

Just because I quote someone doesn't mean it is my truth, I will throw a pebble in the pond just to see where it ripples out.

well, that's fair enough, but if you don't explain what *your* point of view is rather than making vague statements quoting other people, you can hardly expect not to be misunderstood.

Well Plato talked about Atlantis but I am not allowed to discuss such things on this forum.

like brian says, feel free to take discussions about atlantis over to the appropriate bit of the forum, although rather than philosophy i think it's probably new age. plato is hardly an archaeological authority, however.

But many people feel, have seen and experienced these times when there was a matriarchal society

er.... "feeling" that it happened is not really what i'd call evidence. and, in the absence of time-travel, i'm inclined to be a little sceptical of what some people may have managed to convince themselves. which people? how exactly did they "see" and "experience" these things? if you want such things to be taken seriously there has to be at least some attempt at a compelling argument.

My view is that when we are in denial of the divine feminine we are also in denial of a part of G!D which is also a part of US.

i'm not in denial of it! i don't believe that the Divine has gender in any way other than how we experience it. there is, as you are no doubt aware, a relationship between humans and G!D that is consistently characterised in terms of a loving and sexual (albeit hetero) relationship that has been extensively examined in the jewish tradition. i just don't believe that there was some sort of historical feminist utopia other than in the minds of those who wish there had been.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[aquaris]

Hmmmmmmm....

Though I am not famaliar with all this historical Mythologies,Characters...etc..etc...
But ..... the Insinuation that .......EVE was not the first Women......created....and the reference to Lilith being the First......
I googled...and found this...

Of the all the figures in Midrash, it is Lilith who is most clearly Babalon. It might therefore be helpful to investigate her. Lilith, aside from a stray reference comparing her to a "screechowl" (the translation is debatable), does not appear in the Bible itself. It is in Rabbinic midrash (presumably relying on earlier legends) that we find the full delineation of Lilith. The rabbis began with the Biblical reference to man's first creation as a bisexual being--"male and female He [God] created them [the first human]". Some of the rabbis found in this image something similar to what Aristophanes proposed in the Symposium: a dual bodied being later divided into two who must thereafter seek each other out. But others tried to take into account the later creation of Eve detailed further on in the text. If woman was created from Adam, after his initial creation, than what happened to the female created at first? The answer, according to the Midrash, was that she was Lilith; created with Adam, she refused to comply with Adam's demand that she submit herself to him, and in the end fled from him by using the Ineffable Name. Adam then complained to God about his loneliness, and the creation of Eve followed, together with the "Fall" and the Expulsion from Eden. Adam, blaming this on Eve, separated from her, and for a time reunited with Lilith, before finally returning to Eve. (The details of this first soap opera are reported with various embellishments.) Lilith bore Adam a number of children in this interval, who became the demons. After Adam's reconcilation with Eve, Lilith assumed the Queenship of the Demons; in some versions she is the consort of Samael, in others she remains unpartnered. As Queen of the Demons, she kills babies in their cribs

Source...: http://www.lilitu.com/lilith/lilit.html

.... Its very fascinating.....

One More very interesting thing which I noted....
that God gave a couple of tries ..... to make a Mate for ADAM.... as he was
jealous of other creatures having mates....and he had None...
It is said... Liliath abondoned Adam as adam tried to dominate her.....( asking her lie beneath her for Sex ) ....and she objected....that since she is equall....she will not submit to His desires....so she left Adam...

(b) Some say that God created man and woman in His own image on the Sixth Day, giving them charge over the world; 2 but that Eve did not yet exist. Now, God had set Adam to name every beast, bird and other living thing. When they passed before him in pairs, male and female, Adam-being already like a twenty-year-old man-felt jealous of their loves, and though he tried coupling with each female in turn, found no satisfaction in the act. He therefore cried: 'Every creature but I has a proper matel', and prayed God would remedy this injustice. 3

source http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/lillith.html

So this raises another very interesting Fundamental Question...?

so God is not perfect.... He can make mistakes.....??

 

[aquaris]

So it seems that Female form was the First to Sort of Rebel

Liliat refusing a submissive postion... to ADAM....

So is it God's Sort of payback to the Female form to be dominated by the Male form on this earth..??

Of course the Other being ' EVEs' another Female form eating the Forbidden fruit....??

 

[bananabrain]

aquaris,

you need to know your sources a bit better. the website www.lilitu.com is not exactly what i'd call an authoritative (let alone impartial) source on what judaism says or not - it's one person's site who has a very clear axe to grind. nor are graves or patai generally considered authorities on what judaism actually thinks or thought. you also misunderstand the function of midrash - not all midrash is authoritative, nor is all midrash accepted. in the "free speech" tradition of judaism, minority opinions are preserved although not followed. quoting verbatim what lilitu.com says is simply repeating her opinion - i note she chooses to fly in the face of segal's criticisms, which are far better informed than she is.

Lilith abandoned Adam as adam tried to dominate her.....( asking her lie beneath her for Sex ) ....and she objected....that since she is equall....she will not submit to His desires....so she left Adam...

as "right-on" as this would look nowadays, it's hardly grounds for criticising the original Text, particularly given that midrash is *not* more authoritative. this is just an example of the modern perspective going "oh, how cool and rebellious lilith is compared to that doormat eve, you go, girl" amid other such idiocies.

So this raises another very interesting Fundamental Question...? so G!D is not perfect.... can make mistakes.....??

it does nothing of the sort. no reputable jewish source would suggest this - googling is not generally considered to guarantee reliability without some idea about precedence. there is no big conspiracy about this story being not generally known; it's just not actually that important.

So is it G!D's Sort of payback to the Female form to be dominated by the Male form on this earth..??

as i said before, it's a *consequence* - whether you want to consider it a punishment or not is dependent on a deeper understanding of the sources. don't forget, adam is also "punished" by having to work for a living, another direct consequence of not living in the edenic state any more. from a jewish perspective, the edenic state is not actually humanity as we would understand it!

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Quahom1]

Well then, tell me which western society has been dominated by men during the last two thousand years, Quahom, because I can't think of any. Because certainly any society that has not been influenced by the book of Genesis doesn't belong in the discussion.

The injustice that I am speaking of is the way that Christian women have historically been deprived rights enjoyed by Christian men. It wasn't all that long ago that women were not considered to be "persons" under Canadian and British law. Even today women are not treated equally in the west, no matter how much we would like to pretend otherwise. And I believe the reason why is because western society as a whole is founded on Christianity as a religion, and Christianity as a religion is founded on the Bible, and the Bible has been misinterpreted by those in power in order to maintain their power.

The idea that for essentially 2000 years the west has had the knowledge of Christ and has nevertheless maintained unequal scales for the treatment of males and females is an injustice in my mind.

Hello Marsh,

I presume that you meant which western society was dominated by women in the last 2000 years...?

And by the tone of your post I presume that you mean since the "paternal" version of God took over...?

You really don't know much about Christian women, do you? You certainly do not "sound" like one (not a slam, just an observation).

If it weren't for Christian women, there might not be Christianity at all Marsh. Not to change the subject from your original thought, but your thoughts are jumping everywhere and I'm having a hard time keeping up. The Celts 300 BC-1200 AD.

In 562 AD Ireland was one of the last bastians of learned behavior, during the "dark ages". The majority of Abbeys were run by "SURPRISE", Abbesses (Catholic believing priests of the female persuasion). They also carried a hefty broad sword under their cloaks, and knew how to use them with "extreme predjudice" (where are you Vaj? '-) ). In Fact Marsh, these female Christian Priestesses helped keep Rome at bay for over 150 years, while they re-taught the rest of Europe's "hiearchy" young, how to be royalty, learned, and Christian (not Catholic/Roman style). Why women priests? Because The Celts were ruled for the most part by women. So a woman priest held much sway over the men...(men looked up them them, not up their skirt...well, they did that too...).

Women did that Marsh. Took no credit for it, and gave no quarter, and eventually died holding their cross, bible and sword at the ready. But!!!! They succeeded in saving western civilization as we know it. They ran the roost, and did it ever so well!! And the men fought like hell for their Chieftian, whomever he/she was. Women stripped and glazed skin and picked up sword as well, fighting right alongside the menfolk. (Erin Go Bragh).

I can go on about Aztecs, Amazons, Mayans, and others, but then I don't think you really consider these people "western" (forgot the Incas, Hopes, and other "western" people too).

Lashing out doesn't bode well for anyone Marsh. You'll get your jets cooled by someone who knows something. Think about it.

v/r

Q

I can always tell you about my mother...she is a woman to be reconed with...

 

[Marsh]

Just where in christianity do you see it say women are inferior to men, cause I must admit I might have missed it somewhere. But I think if you really want to look at the way a religion treats its women you can do a hell of alot worse than Christianity.

Im sure if you ask my fiancee she doesnt feel I put her anywhere but right beside me or above me but damn sure not inferior. Of course this is from a CF fool.

Coming in late, maybe you didn't catch the road that discussion was going down, Dor. I don't want to speak for Sacredstar, but I believe Christianity as the teachings of Christ is just and fair. Christianity as a theology, however, has been applied at various times and in various places unjustly and unfairly. And subsequently western democracies, which grew in essentially Christian atmospheres, have historically treated men and women inequally.

Let me be honest for a moment. When I was first married, I believed myself to be spiritually superior to my wife (that is, in God's eyes I had a greater purpose than she did). Believe me: There's no better situation than marriage to figure out the true meaning of what Jesus said the need to humble oneself in order to be great. I look back at my behaviour in the first few months of our marriage and shake my head; what we had then was based on power instead of love. Happily, what we have now is based on love instead of power.

I gave in. Don't believe the Dr. Phil-style propaganda out there; it's the best way to go-- especially with finances.

I know some Christians here in Singapore who believe that women were created for the pleasure of men. Their marriages turn into shambles because they maintain a division between husband and wife, rather than putting the two together into one. Obviously, when you put your fiancee next to you rather than behind you (or in front of you, depending on the weather) it is clear that you think she has more of a purpose than being an object of your pleasure. I don't think you are the kind of Christian fundamentalist that Sacredstar was noting.

 

[Basstian]

I am one of these Guys that would rather lose an arm or a leg or both rather than lose my wife. I would gladly Give my life for her and she knows it. I treat her in alot of ways as Christ treats His Bride the Church I Love I teach I protect.

I do not feel she is my equal I do not see the Bible as putting men and women equal in any way other than salvation. I wouldnt dare say I feel I am better than her or that she is Inferior. But I can say we are not equal. I think with logic even when it goes against what my heart says. She goes with her heart even when it defies logic.

I am The spiritual leader of my household my Godly wife submits to that willingly and joyfully. I don't abuse this status nor do I take its responsibility lightly. My wife often advises me as second in command
We know that an unbelieving husband may be saved by a believing wife Paul said so. But how much sweeter a life that wife would have if the husband was a believer and lead his family in the ways of the Lord.

14 yrs now we have been wed everyday it seems I grow to love her more. She to me is the modern day living word of proverbs 31. I have a treasure indeed.
The carnal nature of a man is to dominate everything around him women included. Watching worldly men who claim no ties to religion of any kind you often see women abused and missused I dont see that as being something religion taught but rather an almost instinctive nature that arrived with sin.
Cultures and religions far removed from Christianity have held the same problem for women.
Eden launched both male and female into this way of life. Had sin not entered the world these complaints would have never been heard.
I think the cry for equality is not a Godly attitude for women. But is the cry of women in need of Godly men in their lives. If Dads and Husbands Brothers Uncles etc. refuse to be the men God wants them to be. Than by all means yes women lead the way.

I see alot of Pauls writing that do not fit in todays culture. Being silent in church and other such rules that have no bearing on how we worship today.
I think paul was addressing the Church at that time but also gave us plenty of room to make sound judgement calls on these types of issues.

Many would say I am oldfashioned or fundamentalist in my dealings with my wife. My wife I assure you is treated like the treasure she is but I cannot say is my equal and like I already stated wouldnt ever say is inferior. But there is beauty in our difference that makes us as a whole work very well together as one towards one goal..... Christ.

 

[Faithfulservant]

"Woman was not taken from Man's head, to be above him, nor from his feet, to be below him, but from his side, to be equal to him. Woman was taken from under man's arm, to be protected by him, and from near his heart, to be loved by him."

I still like Q's version.

As a Christian woman and engaged to a Christian man I do not feel lesser in any way shape or form. I believe that when we are married we form a whole and we build our house (marriage) on the Rock of our Foundation (Jesus) as God intended marriage to be. Basing your relationship on scripture is a recipe for success that was the purpose of it.

 

[Quahom1]

I am one of these Guys that would rather lose an arm or a leg or both rather than lose my wife. I would gladly Give my life for her and she knows it. I treat her in alot of ways as Christ treats His Bride the Church I Love I teach I protect.

I do not feel she is my equal I do not see the Bible as putting men and women equal in any way other than salvation. I wouldnt dare say I feel I am better than her or that she is Inferior. But I can say we are not equal. I think with logic even when it goes against what my heart says. She goes with her heart even when it defies logic.

I am The spiritual leader of my household my Godly wife submits to that willingly and joyfully. I don't abuse this status nor do I take its responsibility lightly. My wife often advises me as second in command
We know that an unbelieving husband may be saved by a believing wife Paul said so. But how much sweeter a life that wife would have if the husband was a believer and lead his family in the ways of the Lord.

14 yrs now we have been wed everyday it seems I grow to love her more. She to me is the modern day living word of proverbs 31. I have a treasure indeed.
The carnal nature of a man is to dominate everything around him women included. Watching worldly men who claim no ties to religion of any kind you often see women abused and missused I dont see that as being something religion taught but rather an almost instinctive nature that arrived with sin.
Cultures and religions far removed from Christianity have held the same problem for women.
Eden launched both male and female into this way of life. Had sin not entered the world these complaints would have never been heard.
I think the cry for equality is not a Godly attitude for women. But is the cry of women in need of Godly men in their lives. If Dads and Husbands Brothers Uncles etc. refuse to be the men God wants them to be. Than by all means yes women lead the way.

I see alot of Pauls writing that do not fit in todays culture. Being silent in church and other such rules that have no bearing on how we worship today.
I think paul was addressing the Church at that time but also gave us plenty of room to make sound judgement calls on these types of issues.

Many would say I am oldfashioned or fundamentalist in my dealings with my wife. My wife I assure you is treated like the treasure she is but I cannot say is my equal and like I already stated wouldnt ever say is inferior. But there is beauty in our difference that makes us as a whole work very well together as one towards one goal..... Christ.

I believe I understand what you are saying. The wording is different, but the feeling seems to be the same. Since you are "man" and wife, you are the primary, and she is your "help meet", or help mate (to be biblically correct as opposed to politically correct, eh? )

Based on this thinking, you are correct. She is your equal, but not equal to you. You are her equal but not equal to her. In today's world the syntax is lost or omitted (for obvious power reasons).

In many ways you place her above you, and I suspect she does the same to you.

So, she fits very nicely by your side and under your arm, and you both like it that way.

People forget that a "king" is the number one "servant" to the kingdom (sometimes the king forgets it too).

Yes, I understand what you mean...it sounds like a very healthy relationship.

v/r

Q