Who created Evil?

Yes, despite (what I contend to be) the “oops” in which material imperfection fell from God (not created by a Loving God), some of the Light, the divinity, survived and provides potential for spiritual growth. And yes to our being Christlike, Christ being a role model for us to better actualize our spiritual potential. I also like the author’s emphasis on “education,” something humankind has not been very serious about doing. Religious dogma got in the way of generic goodness and connectedness/spirituality/ wholeness. I believe that we the people CAN reach consensus about basic goodness and we could, if willing, democratically intentionally shape a good and spiritual culture that “educates” (educes, draws out) higher levels of personality and social integration
I see that evil is required for us to know what is good. Thus creation is Perfect for its given purpose, there is no oops!

There is also a very good talk by Abdul'baha about the "Non-existent of evil".

I have linked it above, below is the opening statement which then goes in for more logical explanations.

"From Some Answered Questions by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá

The true explanation of this subject is very difficult. Know that beings are of two kinds: material and spiritual, those perceptible to the senses and those intellectual.

Things which are sensible are those which are perceived by the five exterior senses; thus those outward existences which the eyes see are called sensible. Intellectual things are those which have no outward existence but are conceptions of the mind. For example, mind itself is an intellectual thing which has no outward existence. All man’s characteristics and qualities form an intellectual existence and are not sensible.

Briefly, the intellectual realities, such as all the qualities and admirable perfections of man, are purely good, and exist. Evil is simply their nonexistence. So ignorance is the want of knowledge; error is the want of guidance; forgetfulness is the want of memory; stupidity is the want of good sense. All these things have no real existence...."

Regards Tony
 
Yes, despite (what I contend to be) the “oops” in which material imperfection fell from God (not created by a Loving God) ...
Your standpoint is quite the 'gnostic' (as 'Gnosticism', a somewhat generic catch-all, is commonly understood today) and as such you're inevitably going to be at odds with any dialogue with the Abrahamic Traditions. Those paradigms (Jewish, Christian & Islamic) offer a more holistic, dare I say monistic, outlook, not one of divine rupture.

My question would be how/why this 'oops' came about?
 
That seems to be a main theme of Christianity.
I really don't think it is.

From a quick search
"Love refers to deep emotional attachment, care, and connection with another person, often involving commitment, intimacy, and mutual respect. It can be driven by genuine affection, shared values, or even selfless devotion, as seen in forms like agape (unconditional love) or eros (romantic love). Love emphasizes the intrinsic worth of the individual, not just their usefulness."

(I'd qualify Christian love as agape, not eros, and is to do with the free gift of self to the other.)

"Utility, in contrast, refers to the practical benefit or usefulness something provides. Utilitarian love is a rational, pragmatic form of love where relationships are formed or maintained based on mutual advantage—such as shared goals, emotional support, or financial stability—rather than deep emotional bonds. It aligns with the philosophical principle of utilitarianism, which seeks to maximize overall happiness and efficiency."

I would say Abrahamic love is spiritual, agape; humanist / utilitarian love is natural, is philantropia, carnal love is eros.
 
Even major religions can evolve in understanding. If all powerful contradicts all loving, best to choose the latter.
That seems to assume the religions are wrong, and you are right ... ;)

In the religions, all powerful does not contradict all loving, so it seems to me your understanding rests on a false dichotomy.
 
Briefly, the intellectual realities, such as all the qualities and admirable perfections of man, are purely good, and exist. Evil is simply their nonexistence. So ignorance is the want of knowledge; error is the want of guidance; forgetfulness is the want of memory; stupidity is the want of good sense. All these things have no real existence...."
Makes sense. But the distraction that our reality provides very ACTIVE forms of ignorance/illusion/delusion. We are experiencing quite a bit of it in the USA now.
 
Makes sense. But the distraction that our reality provides very ACTIVE forms of ignorance/illusion/delusion. We are experiencing quite a bit of it in the USA now.
Yes inded, as we are still yet to submit unto God.

What can I say? As the remedial actions required for humanity to find a lesser peace, have been given. Yet we still head towards destruction, far away from the love and unity of humanity that God wants for us to find and embrace.

Regards Tony
 
I don't see why? The idea of God's absolute power and infinite love is central to the Abrahamic Traditions ... there is no need to 'make room', it's there through and through.

I can absolutely agree that contemporary right-wing pseudo-Christianity of the West preaches a kind of nationalism that is offensive to Jews, Christians and Muslims alike.
Absolute power and infinite love seem to sit uneasily together conceptually not only with the existence the evil and suffering in the world we know, but also with the oft-defended doctrine of eternal/inescapable suffering in the world beyond.
 
The Adamic Myth finds the origin of evil in the historic activity of man: evil enters the world through man's free conscious acts. For this reason Ricoeur calls the Adamic myth 'reflective' or 'deliberative', whereas the other types, the cosmogonic, the tragic, the exile, are 'speculative' because they located the origin of evil prior to the existential experience of human decision and action.
In the biblical account of the 'beginning,' the human person is created by God as a finite, good and innocent son of God. Creation is of God and is radically good. It is Adam as the 'First Man' who originates evil and causes a condition homogeneous with ours.

In the Adamic myth evil is a deviation from the good and sin is a turning away from God. So the Adamic myth is not strictly speaking a 'Fall of Man' narrative in the same sense as the Myth of Exile. The Adamic myth is an ethical vision of the world in which evil originates in a human act of 'will' (freedom).
Wait - isn't the blame still put on external agents - the serpent tempter (conflated in later interpretations as satan / lucifer / the devil)
 
Wait - isn't the blame still put on external agents - the serpent tempter (conflated in later interpretations as satan / lucifer / the devil)
Well the detail I have to offer on that involves quite a long answer, and it rightly belongs in my thread in myths, etc elsewhere, so I shall reply to it there... but I have stuff on hand at the moment.

As a short interval answer, you correctly point out that the interpretation of the serpent as the devil is later, it's there in Rabbinic Judaism alongside Christianity, but it's not – a notable point – there in Paul. For Paul, Christ is the New Adam who overcomes sin, and sin enters the world through the first Adam, not through the serpent ... anyway, more on slithery things and mythology to follow!
 
Absolute power and infinite love seem to sit uneasily together conceptually not only with the existence the evil and suffering in the world we know, but also with the oft-defended doctrine of eternal/inescapable suffering in the world beyond.
Light Within, since you and I seem on the same wavelength here, in regards to “absolute power and infinite love vs (sitting) uneasily together,” I thought you’d like this except from chapter 5 of my book in progress, Getting to Know One’s Connected Self:

Reverse Levitation
A dream I had the night before last inspired a meaningful mythic story about the possible metaphysics involved in each of us having an individual spirit that interacts with us in the physical dimension where we live out our lives. Before I describe the dream, I need to share some background theological insights that came to me in the days and weeks before it. These insights helped form the dream’s theme.

Standard Christian theology paints a picture of an all-powerful supreme being who intentionally fashioned Creation and then allowed each of us to have free will so that our love for the Supreme Being is genuine instead of a mechanical response.

This story works until you explore the logical implications of an all-powerful Creator. If the Creator is all powerful, then all the suffering that unfortunately goes on in the otherwise beautiful masterpiece is allowed, sooner or later.

Some of the suffering can be bypassed if we choose wisely and don’t go down the dead-end streets of sin. Sin is when we choose to get stuck on any given part of reality that prevents us from being open to the wholeness to which the parts are connected.

But some of the suffering has nothing to do with our sin. Horrible things happen to very good people. Participating in life leaves us vulnerable to victimization. It’s just the way Creation is designed. If an all-powerful God designed it, then He allowed the suffering. The fact that we could choose God’s love or grace to offset, or even transcend, the suffering does not prevent its infliction upon us.

It’s understandable that God enjoys us choosing to love Him. What being would not prefer to be loved? But if our suffering is the price He makes us pay so that we can turn to Him out of love, then we are put into a position of being victims in order to provide the love that God desires. It seems like a sadistic video game that God likes to play. One that we can’t opt out of unless we choose to end our lives. Or it makes God look like he has Munchausen disorder that makes him dependent on making us sick so He can cure us. He’s a nurse that injects poison into us so He can care for us.

The logical conclusion is that an all-powerful God cannot be an all-loving God. Unfortunately, it points out a very inconvenient truth. At least it’s inconvenient if we feel we must depend on an all-powerful God. Those who are individually or collectively struggling to survive would crave power because their situation leaves them feeling powerless. If you are cold and naked, you understandably become obsessed with finding the power of acquiring and wearing warm clothes. You may be willing to kill (overpower) a bear in order to clothe yourself in the bear’s warm furry coat. So, it’s understandable how religion in the past, when everyone was struggling just to survive, would insist on an all-powerful God.

But as we collectively evolve past the basic needs on Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, we are freer to focus on something as beautiful and meaningful as love. Power and greatness become less important. Love and goodness become our main focus. We have enough power and mastery to afford a higher thing.

Turns out that power is a lower thing as compared to love. If we are honest, life, having the power to be alive, is not worth much without love and beauty. Beauty is but a different form of love. We love the beautiful arrangements life offers. Without any prospect of love and beauty, we had just as soon die. Fortunately, Creation has plenty of love and beauty in it. Suffering is but a part of the Picture.

Where does that leave us who are blessed to have a more evolved spiritual understanding than our forefathers and mothers? It leaves us with an opportunity to choose a loving God who is not all-powerful but who is nonetheless sufficiently powerful to help us fix a cosmic accident.

If the inevitable suffering we encounter on/in the physical plane is the result of an accident, we can no longer blame God for it. Instead, we can choose to do our part to help Ultimate Reality or God fix the problem. And it appears that God graced us with individual spirits so we could have the spiritual power to help God in the Grand Reclamation Project.

Now the stage is properly set for the telling of my dream.

I was levitating above people in a church or educational setting. I was sure that my levitation would be sufficient evidence that there is a spiritual dimension we could tap into. But they would not, or could not, acknowledge that I was, in fact, levitating, hovering slightly (only three or four feet) above.

It seems interesting that my feet were not way above the rest of the people in the dream. I was still in their zone of living, but slightly elevated. One would think that this close proximity would help the people understand. But even that was insufficient. Could they not see the anomaly, the miracle of sorts?

That’s the story, at least the main part of it, as best as I recall. What was the dream showing me? You?

In the dream I was levitating. This seemed an exception to the rule. But what if, out of my bias of thinking we must walk on the ground, I got it backwards?

What if my Connected Self was doing what was normal to it, moving gently about in the astral plane like an angel with wings? What if the abnormal ones were the people, my Concrete Self included, who couldn’t levitate and who couldn’t even appreciate the possibility of it?
Soon after I woke from the dream, I imagined an interesting mythical account of Creation. God’s fingers and hands started getting heavy. Soon his fingers fell off, then his hands, then his arms, then his feet, then his legs. How would you feel if your body parts fell off of you? Wouldn’t you want them back so your being would once again be complete? In my little myth, God wants his parts back. But try as he might, he can’t accomplish this feat on his own. He needed the body parts, which had somehow retained some of his power, as satellites of his being, to help move back into place. He had to work through them. He could not fix the problem by merely working on them.

We are the fallen God parts. Our individual spirits, our Connected Selves, is the way God works through us, but can’t override the free will of the body parts. If we can manage to see the natural workings, the spiritual ways, of our individual spirit, then we can help move the parts back to God. But if we fail to acknowledge the special gifts of our own Connected Self, we will be limited to the ways of the physical plane of existence. Our Concrete Self will not know or understand our Connected Self. And by “our,” I may well mean “my.” That is, my Concrete Self was not understanding or appreciating my Connected Self. Presumably, the same applies to all of us. I am but one of God’s fallen body parts of many.

My made-up metaphysical story left out one thing. In order for the individual spirit to participate in the Grand Reclamation Project, it must accept the mission. Which includes the occasional dread of not being able to fly and the frequent frustration of its host’s refusal to acknowledge it and work with it. The Connected Self must endure the frustration of seeing and feeling the Concrete Self drop the ball that the Connected Self passed to it. Not once or twice, but over and over again!

As I indicated earlier in the book, I borrowed that whole spirit-accepting-the-assignment part of the story from New Age thought. But it works for me, so now it’s my own sub-story, and I’m sticking to it!
 
Light Within, since you and I seem on the same wavelength here, in regards to “absolute power and infinite love vs (sitting) uneasily together,” I thought you’d like this except from chapter 5 of my book in progress, Getting to Know One’s Connected Self:

Reverse Levitation
A dream I had the night before last inspired a meaningful mythic story about the possible metaphysics involved in each of us having an individual spirit that interacts with us in the physical dimension where we live out our lives. Before I describe the dream, I need to share some background theological insights that came to me in the days and weeks before it. These insights helped form the dream’s theme.

Standard Christian theology paints a picture of an all-powerful supreme being who intentionally fashioned Creation and then allowed each of us to have free will so that our love for the Supreme Being is genuine instead of a mechanical response.

This story works until you explore the logical implications of an all-powerful Creator. If the Creator is all powerful, then all the suffering that unfortunately goes on in the otherwise beautiful masterpiece is allowed, sooner or later.

Some of the suffering can be bypassed if we choose wisely and don’t go down the dead-end streets of sin. Sin is when we choose to get stuck on any given part of reality that prevents us from being open to the wholeness to which the parts are connected.

But some of the suffering has nothing to do with our sin. Horrible things happen to very good people. Participating in life leaves us vulnerable to victimization. It’s just the way Creation is designed. If an all-powerful God designed it, then He allowed the suffering. The fact that we could choose God’s love or grace to offset, or even transcend, the suffering does not prevent its infliction upon us.

It’s understandable that God enjoys us choosing to love Him. What being would not prefer to be loved? But if our suffering is the price He makes us pay so that we can turn to Him out of love, then we are put into a position of being victims in order to provide the love that God desires. It seems like a sadistic video game that God likes to play. One that we can’t opt out of unless we choose to end our lives. Or it makes God look like he has Munchausen disorder that makes him dependent on making us sick so He can cure us. He’s a nurse that injects poison into us so He can care for us.

The logical conclusion is that an all-powerful God cannot be an all-loving God. Unfortunately, it points out a very inconvenient truth. At least it’s inconvenient if we feel we must depend on an all-powerful God. Those who are individually or collectively struggling to survive would crave power because their situation leaves them feeling powerless. If you are cold and naked, you understandably become obsessed with finding the power of acquiring and wearing warm clothes. You may be willing to kill (overpower) a bear in order to clothe yourself in the bear’s warm furry coat. So, it’s understandable how religion in the past, when everyone was struggling just to survive, would insist on an all-powerful God.

But as we collectively evolve past the basic needs on Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, we are freer to focus on something as beautiful and meaningful as love. Power and greatness become less important. Love and goodness become our main focus. We have enough power and mastery to afford a higher thing.

Turns out that power is a lower thing as compared to love. If we are honest, life, having the power to be alive, is not worth much without love and beauty. Beauty is but a different form of love. We love the beautiful arrangements life offers. Without any prospect of love and beauty, we had just as soon die. Fortunately, Creation has plenty of love and beauty in it. Suffering is but a part of the Picture.

Where does that leave us who are blessed to have a more evolved spiritual understanding than our forefathers and mothers? It leaves us with an opportunity to choose a loving God who is not all-powerful but who is nonetheless sufficiently powerful to help us fix a cosmic accident.

If the inevitable suffering we encounter on/in the physical plane is the result of an accident, we can no longer blame God for it. Instead, we can choose to do our part to help Ultimate Reality or God fix the problem. And it appears that God graced us with individual spirits so we could have the spiritual power to help God in the Grand Reclamation Project.

Now the stage is properly set for the telling of my dream.

I was levitating above people in a church or educational setting. I was sure that my levitation would be sufficient evidence that there is a spiritual dimension we could tap into. But they would not, or could not, acknowledge that I was, in fact, levitating, hovering slightly (only three or four feet) above.

It seems interesting that my feet were not way above the rest of the people in the dream. I was still in their zone of living, but slightly elevated. One would think that this close proximity would help the people understand. But even that was insufficient. Could they not see the anomaly, the miracle of sorts?

That’s the story, at least the main part of it, as best as I recall. What was the dream showing me? You?

In the dream I was levitating. This seemed an exception to the rule. But what if, out of my bias of thinking we must walk on the ground, I got it backwards?

What if my Connected Self was doing what was normal to it, moving gently about in the astral plane like an angel with wings? What if the abnormal ones were the people, my Concrete Self included, who couldn’t levitate and who couldn’t even appreciate the possibility of it?
Soon after I woke from the dream, I imagined an interesting mythical account of Creation. God’s fingers and hands started getting heavy. Soon his fingers fell off, then his hands, then his arms, then his feet, then his legs. How would you feel if your body parts fell off of you? Wouldn’t you want them back so your being would once again be complete? In my little myth, God wants his parts back. But try as he might, he can’t accomplish this feat on his own. He needed the body parts, which had somehow retained some of his power, as satellites of his being, to help move back into place. He had to work through them. He could not fix the problem by merely working on them.

We are the fallen God parts. Our individual spirits, our Connected Selves, is the way God works through us, but can’t override the free will of the body parts. If we can manage to see the natural workings, the spiritual ways, of our individual spirit, then we can help move the parts back to God. But if we fail to acknowledge the special gifts of our own Connected Self, we will be limited to the ways of the physical plane of existence. Our Concrete Self will not know or understand our Connected Self. And by “our,” I may well mean “my.” That is, my Concrete Self was not understanding or appreciating my Connected Self. Presumably, the same applies to all of us. I am but one of God’s fallen body parts of many.

My made-up metaphysical story left out one thing. In order for the individual spirit to participate in the Grand Reclamation Project, it must accept the mission. Which includes the occasional dread of not being able to fly and the frequent frustration of its host’s refusal to acknowledge it and work with it. The Connected Self must endure the frustration of seeing and feeling the Concrete Self drop the ball that the Connected Self passed to it. Not once or twice, but over and over again!

As I indicated earlier in the book, I borrowed that whole spirit-accepting-the-assignment part of the story from New Age thought. But it works for me, so now it’s my own sub-story, and I’m sticking to it!
Improved edition of same excerpt. Meaning not changed, just improved writing. If you didn’t read first version yet, read this one instead. :

Reverse Levitation

A dream I had the night before last inspired a new meaningful myth. The story is about the possible metaphysics that led up to each of us having an individual spirit that interacts with us in the physical dimension.



Before I describe the dream, I need to share some background theological insights that came to me in the days and weeks before it. These insights helped form the dream’s theme.



Standard Christian theology paints a picture of an all-powerful supreme being who intentionally fashioned Creation and then allowed each of us to have free will so that our love for the Supreme Being is genuine instead of a mechanical response.



This story works until you explore the logical implications of an all-powerful Creator. If the Creator is all powerful, then the intense suffering that unfortunately goes on in the otherwise beautiful masterpiece is allowed, sooner or later.



Some of the suffering can be bypassed if we choose wisely and don’t go down the dead-end streets of sin. Sin is when we choose to get stuck on any given part of reality that prevents us from being open to the wholeness to which the parts are connected.



But a lot of the suffering has nothing to do with our sin. Horrible things happen to very good people. Participating in life leaves us vulnerable to victimization.



It’s just the way Creation is designed. If an all-powerful God designed it, then He allowed the suffering. The fact that we could choose God’s love or grace to offset, or even transcend, the suffering does not prevent its infliction upon us.



It’s understandable that God enjoys us choosing to love Him. What being would not prefer to be loved? But if our suffering is the price He makes us pay so that we can turn to Him out of love, then we are put into a position of being victims. Like it or not, we are placed into a difficult situation in which we just might provide the love that God desires.



It seems like a sadistic video game that God likes to play. One that we can’t opt out of unless we choose to end our lives. Or God appears to have Munchausen disorder that makes him dependent on making us sick so He can cure us. He’s a nurse that injects poison into us so He can care for us.

The logical conclusion is that an all-powerful God cannot be an all-loving God. Unfortunately, it points out a very inconvenient truth. At least it’s inconvenient if we feel we must depend on an all-powerful God. Those who are individually or collectively struggling to survive would crave power because their situation leaves them feeling powerless. If you are cold and naked, you understandably become obsessed with finding the power to acquire and wear warm clothes. You may be willing to kill a bear (overpower it) in order to clothe yourself in its warm furry coat. So, it’s understandable how religion in the past, when everyone was struggling just to survive, would insist on an all-powerful God.



But as we collectively evolve past the basic needs on Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, we are freer to focus on something as beautiful and meaningful as love. Power and greatness become less important. Love and goodness become our main foci. We have enough power and mastery to afford a higher thing.

Turns out that power is a lower thing as compared to love. If we are honest, life, having the power to be alive, is not worth much without love and beauty. Beauty is but a different form of love. We love the beautiful arrangements life offers. Without any prospect of love and beauty, we had just as soon die.



Fortunately, Creation has plenty of love and beauty in it. Suffering is but a part of the Picture.



Where does that leave those of us who are blessed to have a more evolved spiritual understanding than our forefathers and mothers? It leaves us with an opportunity to choose a loving God who is not all-powerful but who is nonetheless sufficiently powerful to help us fix a cosmic accident.



If the inevitable suffering we encounter in the physical plane is the result of an accident, we can no longer blame God for it. Instead, we can choose to do our part to help Ultimate Reality or God fix the problem. And it appears that God graced us with individual spirits so we could have the spiritual power to help God in the Grand Reclamation Project.

Now the stage is properly set for the telling of my dream.

I was levitating above people in a church or educational setting. I was sure that my levitation would be sufficient evidence that there is a spiritual dimension we could tap into. But they would not, or could not, acknowledge that I was, in fact, levitating, hovering slightly (only three or four feet) above.

It seems interesting that my feet were not way above the rest of the people in the dream. I was still in their zone of living, but slightly elevated. One would think that this close proximity would help the people understand. But even that was insufficient. Could they not see the anomaly, the miracle of sorts?

That’s the story, at least the main part of it, as best as I recall. What was the dream showing me? You?

In the dream I was levitating. This seemed an exception to the rule. But what if, out of my bias of thinking we must walk on the ground, I got it backwards?

What if my Connected Self was doing what was normal to it, moving gently about in the astral plane like an angel with wings? What if the abnormal ones were the people, my Concrete Self included, who couldn’t levitate and who couldn’t even appreciate the possibility of it?

Soon after I woke from the dream, I imagined an interesting mythical account of Creation. God’s fingers and hands started getting heavy. Soon his fingers fell off, then his hands, then his arms, then his feet, then his legs. How would you feel if your body parts fell off you? Wouldn’t you want them back so your being would once again be complete? In my little myth, God wants his parts back. But try as he might, he can’t accomplish this feat on his own. He needs the body parts, which have somehow retained some of his power (as satellites of his being) to help get themselves back into place. He had to work through them. He cannot fix the problem by merely working on them.

We are the fallen God parts. Our individual spirits, our Connected Selves, is the way God works through us, but can’t override the free will of the body parts. If we can manage to see the natural workings, the spiritual ways, of our individual spirit, then we can help move the parts back to God. But if we fail to acknowledge the special gifts of our own Connected Self, we will be limited to the ways of the physical plane of existence. Our Concrete Self will not know or understand our Connected Self. And by “our,” I may well mean “my.” That is, my Concrete Self was not understanding or appreciating myConnected Self. Presumably, the same applies to all of us. I am but one of God’s fallen body parts of many.

My made-up metaphysical story left out one thing. For the individual spirit to participate in the Grand Reclamation Project, it must accept the mission. Which includes the occasional dread of not being able to fly and the frequent frustration of its host’s refusal to acknowledge it and work with it. The Connected Self must endure the frustration of seeing and feeling the Concrete Self drop the ball that the Connected Self passed to it. Not once or twice, but over and over again!

As I indicated earlier in the book, I borrowed that whole spirit-accepting-the-assignment part of the story from New Age thought. But it works for me, so now it’s my own sub-story, and I’m sticking to it!
 
Or perhaps God, in love, continues to accord us the dignity according to the nature God created, a nature that stands on the frontier between the spiritual and the physical, a state from which, by our own actions, we fell, and a state in which, having found ourselves, He reaches out to restore us to our 'birthright', rather than, as we humans tend, to condemn us where we stand.
Whether intentional or not, free will is something to be thankful for. If a happy accident, then I suppose an attitude of gratitude instead of thanking a being for that fortunate situation. We can address thanks for love if God is all-loving. And that is most important anyway.
 
Absolute power and infinite love seem to sit uneasily together conceptually ...
I don't see why. I agree the world has precious little to offer in that regard, but we're talking theologically here, rather than love or power in a sociopolitical context, in which quite often neither have any immediate relation ... hence agape rather than eros.

As St Paul, the least romantic of all the sacred scribes, says:
"Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Affliction or anguish or persecution or famine or nakedness or peril or the sword? As has been written: “For your sake we are being put to death all day long, we were reckoned as sheep for slaughter.” Rather, in all these things we more than conquer through the one who has loved us. For I have been persuaded that neither death nor life nor angels nor Archons nor things present nor things imminent nor Powers, nor height nor depth nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:35-39).

St Paul, in speaking of "rulers", "principalities", "powers” here and elsewhere is not talking of earthly rulers but of celestial spirits or angelic beings governing the nations, in whom most of the peoples of late antiquity believed in one form or another, and who were quite prominent in Jewish apocalyptic tradition. This text is full of associations with the hierarchical angelology and demonology of late antique Judaism and Christianity, dependent to a large degree on such inter-testamental texts as 1 Enoch and the book of Jubilees.

... not only with the existence the evil and suffering in the world we know ...
Suffering is part and parcel of a finite existence. Evil came into the world through human agency, not an act of Divine will.

... but also with the oft-defended doctrine of eternal/inescapable suffering in the world beyond.
Which renders that doctrine all the more implausible.
 
Improved edition of same excerpt. Meaning not changed, just improved writing. If you didn’t read first version yet, read this one instead. :
I'm never sure whether to offer any comment on such texts or not ...

But a lot of the suffering has nothing to do with our sin. Horrible things happen to very good people. Participating in life leaves us vulnerable to victimization.
I think you're conflating suffering and sin here.

Suffering, such as illness, natural calamity, the vicissitudes of a contingent existence, is part of the natural order, and is neither 'good' nor 'evil' in a theological context. Stuff happens, perceived sometimes as good, sometimes as bad ... to put lottery wins, near-misses, tsunamis and earthquakes down to a fault of God is to fly in the face of reason.

Sin is a whole other ballgame, if someone is a victim, then they are subject to another, and that ill inflicted on the victim, at the will of the other, is a sin.

It’s just the way Creation is designed. If an all-powerful God designed it, then He allowed the suffering. The fact that we could choose God’s love or grace to offset, or even transcend, the suffering does not prevent its infliction upon us.
It is an inevitable in the face of a free will that is neither omniscient nor omnipotent.

It's nature.

It’s understandable that God enjoys us choosing to love Him...
Ah, you're over-anthropomorphising now ... I'd suggest a step back, 'divine pleasure' is neither the point of God nor the point of creation.

But if our suffering is the price He makes us pay so that we can turn to Him out of love, then we are put into a position of being victims. Like it or not, we are placed into a difficult situation in which we just might provide the love that God desires.
This is a 'bad god' by any measure and not worthy of our respect, let alone our love.

It seems like a sadistic video game that God likes to play. One that we can’t opt out of unless we choose to end our lives. Or God appears to have Munchausen disorder that makes him dependent on making us sick so He can cure us. He’s a nurse that injects poison into us so He can care for us.
See? You end up in the ridiculous.

The logical conclusion is that an all-powerful God cannot be an all-loving God.
Not at all – the premise is profoundly flawed.
 
Wait - isn't the blame still put on external agents - the serpent tempter (conflated in later interpretations as satan / lucifer / the devil)
Nope. The error is in the assent to the act. "He made me do it" doesn't wash in this circumstance.

The text says: "And the woman saw that the tree was good to eat, and fair to the eyes, and delightful to behold" (Genesis 3:6). The serpent didn't make her do it, and she could have said no, on the basis that God probably knows better ... but then we're making assumptions here.

But the point is, no-one's arm was twisted. The serpent just short-cuts a lot of ground to get to the point of the creature wilfully transgressing a divine command.

Again, in the other mythemes, humanity finds itself in a situation where the conditions are already set. The Adamic myth makes humanity a principle player and indeed cause of its condition.
 
Evil came into the world through human agency, not an act of Divine will..
Agreed upon.
Humans are given the responsibility of making decisions .. good and bad.

In the Qur'an, the angels asked:-

"Will You place in it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?"
..and G-d replies "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."
 
Suffering, such as illness, natural calamity, the vicissitudes of a contingent existence, is part of the natural order,
By traditional thought, the “natural order” is part of Creation. It is thought that God “created” the natural order. I’m just saying that the all-loving God can’t also be the all-powerful and/or all-knowing God.
I wasn’t conflating natural disaster with sin. I was just trying to respond to those (like Jersak, the author of A More Christlike God) who imply that we bring most or all the suffering onto ourselves via our sin. He is excusing God from the fact that God created the non-sin source of suffering (via the natural order in Creation). He is protecting his all-powerful “Daddy.” I’m saying “Daddy” is NOT all-powerful, and did NOT create the natural order. Nonetheless, daddy has plenty of power and even more love to offer us. I want and need a loving God more than I need an all-powerful God.
I agree that the natural order is neither good or bad. That’s because it has little to do with a loving God. Creation is an act of something DONE. Love is more closely related to Being than doing. God’s Being is something different than a “Creator,” although love and authentic being can help create worthwhile things.
 
See? You end up in the ridiculous.
Are we in agreement that God did NOT create the natural order? That as far as God is concerned or involved, the natural order is an accident? If God did create the natural order and if the natural order leads often to intense suffering, and if that very same God is in a position to love us, his creation of a natural order that inflicts suffering is a violation of His ability or promise or responsibility to love. Those who allow unnecessary suffering to the people they are supposed to be loving are committing a sin. Physical creation is not necessary. Natural order is not necessary. If both just happened to happen, beyond God’s ability or power, then God is not guilty of the sin of allowing unnecessary suffering. Otherwise, creation itself is a sin in relation to an all-powerful God, Unless God Himself is a sociopath who has no responsibility for loving the creatures that belong to His Creation.
It would be ridiculous to accept the contradiction of all-powerful and all(truly)-loving. The analogy of the poisoning nurse simply points out the ridiculous contradiction.
I do agree that God did not create evil. I also agree that God does not commit evil or sin. But because of that, I DON’T agree with those who think God is all-powerful.
 
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Love is the ultimate power.
I agree with you and Jersak on that point. The accident though added obstacles such as time and meanness, partness (the ten thousand distractions that divert the human mind away from oneness) in the way of the ultimate power. It’s a real situation we’ve got here!
Could humans have been created with a great more natural goodwill? They still would have had free choice among the good loving options, but would not have the aggressive imbalances that get in the way of love. And it would be naturally obvious that love is the greatest power.
Could we genetically engineer goodwill tendencies in our offspring? Still the same ineffably beautiful autonomous beings that we love, but who have no mean genes, and are easier to love, such that we could advance to the highest levels of love?
Still room for free will but a much better creation.
But no need to think about blaming God for this coarser Creation, since it’s not His fault. He’s a lover, not an absolute Creator.
 
I’m just saying that the all-loving God can’t also be the all-powerful and/or all-knowing God.
And yet 2,000+ years of philosophy and theology says otherwise?

So you've quite a hill to climb to make that point stick.

I was just trying to respond to those (like Jersak, the author of A More Christlike God) who imply that we bring most or all the suffering onto ourselves via our sin.
Are you sure you understand him? A quick look – I'm not familiar with Jersak – suggests that he holds that suffering we experience as a consequence of sin is not divine punishment, but rather the natural, inevitable outcome of our choices.

Having said that, it's evident that many sin without a second thought, and many suffer no perceivable ill-consequence in so doing.

So it may well be he's talking from the standpoint of faith. Our self awareness of our apparent distance from God. His emphasis seems to be that sin leads to separation. The basis of sin is the choice of the ephemeral over the eternal.

+++

One might say that we abandon God when we sin, we abandon our station and fall into a lesser state – and Christ meets us there – The Cross is not a place of divine punishment, or some kind of debt settlement or atonement, it's the telos, the omega, the end of all wrong choice paths, the place that has no place in either the divine or the natural order – Jesus uses the idea of Gehenna, the place where the unwanted is abandoned and forgotten.

On the Cross, Jesus is raised for all to see, to abuse and to spit on, to deride and laugh at. A fate to which he is abandoned by Pilate, who "can find no wrong in him". Abandoned by those who not so long ago laid palms before his path. Abandoned by his people, his followers and his disciples. There is where He takes on the full weight of all human sin and suffering, and there He heals and restores it.

It's not about how much He suffered, it's not a quantitative thing, it's about what was at stake. The Archon of this world thought he had Jesus 'in the bag' one might say, his total triumph over the world, but he was wrong.

His death is our death, and His resurrection is our resurrection.

He is excusing God from the fact that God created the non-sin source of suffering (via the natural order in Creation).
I doubt it. This is a world in which stuff happens, as I said, To want it to be not finite, not contingent, but a fixed and perfect another world is a utopian dream.

He is protecting his all-powerful “Daddy.” I’m saying “Daddy” is NOT all-powerful, and did NOT create the natural order.
OK, then your God is not my God.
 
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