What evidence would you accept?

TheLightWithin

TheLightWithin

...through a glass, darkly
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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio
We've had various discussions about belief and evidence.

Some of our discussions have verged towards discussing what evidence would be acceptable (to those currently skeptical of any belief in particular or religious beliefs in general)

I'm creating this thread to put the question out there directly in so many words:

Regarding religious or supernatural claims for which evidence seems to be thin:
What evidence would you accept?
If you already believe in any religious or supernatural belief system, what is the evidence you currently accept?

I mean this broadly enough to cover at least the following questions:
What evidence would you accept for the existence of the supernatural? (a supernatural world)
What evidence would you accept for the existence of any supernatural beings?
What evidence would you accept for the existence of any god(s)?
What evidence would you accept for the existence of a Supreme Being and/or Creator?
What evidence would you accept for the existence of specifically the Abrahamic G-d?
What evidence would you accept for the validity of any particular theology?

If you already believe in any of the above, what is the evidence you currently accept?
 
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I will start by saying I believe in the existence of the supernatural, and the existence of a Supreme Being.

I cannot prove my beliefs, after years of inquiry I perhaps believe less firmly than I once did, and I find it no easy task to provide evidence much less that which will convince non believers. (I am untroubled by this)

Some of my belief comes from the differing beliefs of the three adults in my household growing up, and the (to me) strangely passionate adamancy of the Christian culture around me.

It seemed logical to me, with all these different ideas around me, that there was a supernatural world which was usually invisible but occasionally accessible.

There were enough ghost stories including experiences stated by people I knew.
I read up on stuff that provided more insight on those ideas. I asked adults questions and got widely varying answers which supported my idea that there was a supernatural world which was poorly understood due to its limited accessibility.

I had occasional and varied experiences from my childhood into my early adulthood that I took as emerging from or connected to a non-physical reality.

I continue to read up on forms of mysticism which in bits and pieces informs a bigger picture.
 
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To provide my own answer to the question of what evidence would I accept, I've thought about that a lot in different ways over the years.

I can tell you what I have been looking for, or once did, and felt disappointed not to find:

I used to think there would be something that would tie different theologies together and "prove" or at least support that more than one religion was telling the truth about supernatural entities and the afterlife and the future of humanity.

I used to think that world events would unfold that would reveal that either the Bible or another holy book, or several, had prophecies that were being proven unambiguously accurate and correct.

I used to think that I or someone close to me would see a seance or have a dream or something someday that would provide me with lots of information somehow, information that could be attained in no earthly manner.

I used to think prominent religious figures around the world would all start having the same dreams and feel drawn to conferring with one another to compare notes

I used to think that archaeologists would find written prophecies in ancient cultures that confirmed the theological beliefs of faraway, unrelated cultures.

I used to think archaeologists would find talismans or something that did not appear to me manmade but would have information on them that was of evidently unearthly origin.

Over the years I've watched the odd episode of Ancient Aliens and realize my wish list could have been written by them.

Perhaps I read things like that when I was younger and found them more credible -
Probably, my mom and grandma would have given that material a glance and a chance, if memory serves.
 
When I was 11 or 12, I used to have a necklace that had a jewel in the center of the pendant that actually was a tiny lens through which you could see a microfiche of the Lord's Prayer.

It looked precisely like this on the outside
Silver-tone Rhodium Clear Rhinestone Heart Pendant with Lord
The image inside was slightly different

and I have no idea where I got it.
Probably from a yard sale or something.
It was probably somebody's first communion or confirmation gift at one time.
I have no idea where anyone in my family would have gotten such an item or if it would have been given to me if they realized it was conventionally religious in nature.

(Some, of conventional religious belief, would use the story above as "evidence" that some divine good fortune put the item in my hands...
except... that's a little ambiguous or even careless, isn't it? Why wasn't there more help in understanding theology or someone to guide me and explain theology to me or something? Not that I would have bought into anything too hardline or crazy and my family would have protected me from that anyway, but thoughtful progressive Christians could have been helpful and persuasive - or if there had been a rational progressive spinoff to my grandfather's heterodox group but nope, nobody could answer my questions so...)

I used to wonder, and wonder hard, why the earth wasn't littered with artifacts like that MADE by G-d or angels and put around for people to find or use for guidance, with constant updates provided (I wasn't basing my thoughts on what computers can currently do as I wondered this long before all this contemporary technology was developed)

I thought if this material were all around the earth saying similar things there would be minimal reason for dispute around the facticity of religious claims and agnosticism and atheism would, if they existed at all, be making very different points or asking different questions.
 
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TheLightWithin said:
We've had various discussions about belief and evidence.

Some of our discussions have verged towards discussing what evidence would be acceptable (to those currently skeptical of any belief in particular or religious beliefs in general)

I'm creating this thread to put the question out there directly in so many words:

Regarding religious or supernatural claims for which evidence seems to be thin:
What evidence would you accept?
If you already believe in any religious or supernatural belief system, what is the evidence you currently accept?

I mean this broadly enough to cover at least the following questions:
What evidence would you accept for the existence of the supernatural? (a supernatural world)
What evidence would you accept for the existence of any supernatural beings?
What evidence would you accept for the existence of any god(s)?
What evidence would you accept for the existence of a Supreme Being and/or Creator?
What evidence would you accept for the existence of specifically the Abrahamic G-d?
What evidence would you accept for the validity of any particular theology?

If you already believe in any of the above, what is the evidence you currently accept?
Click to expand...
These are actually difficult questions for me to answer. But I'll give it a shot.

First off, on another forum I asked a related question. Everyone kept arguing about proof of gods. So I simply asked "If the God of Abraham were standing in front of you right now, what scientific procedure would you use to prove His existence? Most admitted that they had no idea. There were some big issues. One being that we have no idea what we would be testing. We don't know how to prove that a non-physical being exists. There is also the fact that if the biblical God was in front of us, we wouldn't survive the experience (according to scripture). To this day nobody has shown me a scientific procedure that could be used to prove the existence of a deity, even if it was standing in front of you. The evidence will be thin as you say simply because we have no way to prove the existence of something supernatural... which is why it's called "supernatural".

So what evidence might suffice for me personally? I would assume that God would know, as He did with Moses, Paul, etc. I would also assume that spending a few days with one of God's angels and being able him all sorts of questions about the Bible, my life, the world, etc. should work. I would think that an angel could convince me of his existence and that of God Himself.

So what do I believe? I believe that some very odd stuff has happened on Earth. I think that the Bible has a lot of truth to it. Can I prove it in a lab? No. Will I try to convince others of my beliefs? Also no. They aren't concrete. I do find it interesting that some biblical stories echo into cultures all around the world. What makes the Bible stand out? It doesn't make the patriarchs into gods. Many human figures in the Bible, such as Seth, Noah and Cain, appear to have become gods in other cultures. The stories in the Bible also seem to buck the trends of other religions. It doesn't have a plethora of gods. Its laws don't fit well with most human governments. Even its main character stands out. Jesus comes to earth as a low-born human who has a small group of followers, who doesn't ascend into any type of human royalty, and then He just dies being executed in a horrible manner. I don't know of any religion that does such a thing.
I also notice some interesting parallels amongst religions. Not only do many gods seem to mimic biblical patriarchs, but some of the stories resonate in so many cultural stories and religions. The best example, the flood. Practically every culture mentions a great flood that happened in the past. Also interesting to me is that the first deity on the scene right after this flood almost always seems to be a serpent. If I recall correctly, the serpent is the most common deity amongst all religions.

I could go on forever about this...
 
TheLightWithin said:
There's this idea out there about that

en.wikipedia.org

The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Click to expand...
I'm actually quite familiar with this book. I can comment more on it later if you'd like. But it is basically what a book would look like if a Redditor published a book in 1875. The book was written by an "Egyptologist" who contributed absolutely nothing to Egyptology. I do not know of any well-known Egyptologists who have ever cited that book or author for any research. While I get the points made in the book, often the conclusions intentionally or ignorantly leave out very important facts.

For example, the author points out how December 25th was a popular holiday before Jesus arrived on the scene. Therefore, his conclusion is that Jesus is just a copy of pagan deities. But the Bible never says that Jesus was born on December 25th. It alludes to Jesus being born during the fall holy days. And any amateur historian knows that the December 25th date was added a few hundred years later. Paganism may have influenced tradition, but it didn't change the scriptural story at all.
 
I've shown here before how Dec 25 was arrived at as a birth date, based on the belief of cycles, and worked from the date of Christ's crucifixion.

As for the '16 Crucified Saviours', I started working through the list and by No.4 it was clear the list is nonsense.
 
Thomas said:
I've shown here before how Dec 25 was arrived at as a birth date, based on the belief of cycles, and worked from the date of Christ's crucifixion.

As for the '16 Crucified Saviours', I started working through the list and by No.4 it was clear the list is nonsense.
Click to expand...
If I get time I might have to look up what you originally posted about this subject and answer to it. I see nothing scriptural that alludes to a winter birthdate. I've also heard the tradition that He was born on Rosh Hashanah. But we can talk about it on that thread. TheLightWithin asked a very good question so I don't want to get off topic.

I agree about the list. I once wrote a mock piece about how so many evil politicians were just like Hitler. My compelling evidence that tied them to Hitler? They all had mustaches. That was it. But people took it seriously. I had to explain the words "satire" and "sarcasm" to my readers before finally taking it down.
 
First of\nAll you rock.\nThis is a great question set of questions, post in general.


TheLightWithin said:
What evidence would you accept?
In general nothing is enough. I have seen to many magician and con men, I have had the wool pulled over my eyes to good...coincidence, correlation, causation. Either I am too dumb and gullible or they are too good...and I watch the televangelist suck funds out of folks who desperately want to beljeve.

If you already believe in any religious or supernatural belief system, what is the evidence you currently accept?
In general for me none is enough.... in some aspects none is enough, it is my belief and I cant prove it, and I am not ready willing and able to investigate further as it does not matter enough to me beyond this life right now.

I mean this broadly enough to cover at least the following questions:
What evidence would you accept for the existence of the supernatural? (a supernatural world)
I believe our brains are powerful organs, they can easily affect reality...if one chooses to participate. For this I believe a lot of what is posited as supernatural and what was often considered divine individual is a skilled individual in understanding the workings of the mind.

What evidence would you accept for the existence of any supernatural beings?
I would have to wait to see it.

What evidence would you accept for the existence of any god(s)?
Beyond you and everyone else...no clue.

What evidence would you accept for the existence of a Supreme Being and/or Creator?
It would be tough...


What evidence would you accept for the existence of specifically the Abrahamic G-d?
This specific i got. I need the entire organization to stop promoting 7 day creation as fact and this ancient scripture as gospel...as long as the folks are profiting off of hoodwinking the masses...selling a bill of goods..I aint believing the folks that play that game nor the god they promote

What evidence would you accept for the validity of any particular theology?

This nontheistic pannentheist unitic definitely leans Buddhist but likes a ton of what Fillmore offers.
Click to expand...
 
There is one God, the creator of all that is seen and unseen. The same God hears all our prayers, despite our differences. You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God. Start by looking in the mirror.

The theory of evolution convinced me beyond any doubt, that life could not exist without God. How long God took; or how he created; is an interesting subject for science, all I know is; life needs God.

Beyond a doubt, first life had to start somehow. If you have real evidence for abiogenesis through a natural process; there is still a $10 million prize waiting to be claimed.

Origin Of Life: $10 Million Prize at the Royal Society - VOX Site.

Once the first single cell life came into existence, how did it evolve into the skeletal system by a natural process? The skeletal system is possibly the most complex mechanical machine known to man, a bunch of levers connected together. Robotic engineers could look at how 500 muscles, 200 bones, 500 ligaments and 1000 tendons are linked together for movement. Every advance in robotic engineering comes about by teams of engineers using intelligent design. Every future improvement will be a result of intelligent design and super computers.

As an engineering project, bilateral symmetry needs intentional design. Engineers could manufacture prosthetic left hands, and it would be easy to make copies. If they wanted a mirror image right hand, they would need new designs and reset the machines. Before they make hands, engineers would have to design mirror image shoulders, then elbows, then wrists, hands and then fingers.

How would blind mutation and natural selection work? At every stage up to this point, all you have are a bunch of levers that can’t do anything. Selection would have no advantages to pass on. A motor needs to be added, plus sensors, plus a computer that would have to be programmed to pick up a stick. If you wanted the hands to do more, the computer would have to be programmed to do more.

Engineers might use a few thousand components. Our bodies are made up of about thirty trillion cells, they function and grow from a toddler to an adult; plus we pass our genes forwards. Engineers could never do this. How can blind nature have a process that is more advanced than our best computers, engineers and scientists? The more you question evolution, the more it points to God.

How could blind nature create the variety and complexity of life we see today; without God?
 
EricPH said:
How would blind mutation and natural selection work?
Click to expand...
It has to do with survival and reproductive fitness, genes that move to the next generation
EricPH said:
At every stage up to this point, all you have are a bunch of levers that can’t do anything
Click to expand...
That's only the way human designed mechanical objects are created, and it only takes a short while to build a mechanical device compared to the millions of years of evolution from the simplest forms to the more complex forms. Evolution happened if genes offered the entity traits that allowed it to survive long enough to reproduce, then copies of the genes ended up in the next generation and so forth.

Traits survive because they work, and thus survive, and reproduce, and develop from there.
Social and organizational systems are something like that also.
 
TheLightWithin said:
I mean this broadly enough to cover at least the following questions:
What evidence would you accept for the existence of the supernatural? (a supernatural world)
What evidence would you accept for the existence of any supernatural beings?
What evidence would you accept for the existence of any god(s)?
What evidence would you accept for the existence of a Supreme Being and/or Creator?
What evidence would you accept for the existence of specifically the Abrahamic G-d?
What evidence would you accept for the validity of any particular theology?
Click to expand...
I probably should have amended this to add, What evidence do you accept of the existence of an afterlife (which usually implies the existence of a soul beyond the body... though there are exceptions to that view)
 
TheLightWithin said:
What evidence would you accept for the existence of the supernatural? (a supernatural world)
Click to expand...
When I was younger I used to have the occasional precognitive dream.
For some reason I took this as some evidence of something, though I think I had things like the unexplained, the mysterious, the paranormal, the supernatural, and the spiritual all conflated.
 
TheLightWithin said:
What evidence would you accept for the validity of any particular theology?
Click to expand...
I also probably should have amended this to include "What evidence would you accept for the validity of any prophecy or prophetic tradition?"

I've long wondered what was included in materials that were destroyed by the institutional church, for example the Gnostic materials, or the Mayan scriptures, etc.

I always wondered why it wasn't abundantly clear that all cultures around the world had gotten the same messages from G-d.
(Maybe as it turns out they did not?)
If not what is the actual configuration of the supernatural world?
Did every culture get information from beyond, but it just isn't what those who believe in a Supreme Being think it is?

I always thought it would be very intriguing if the Bible had a lot of information in it about the Maya or about China or the Norse people
Or if ancient Chinese writings had mentioned the Hebrews or the Maya or the Norse.
Or if Mayan writings mentioned the Hebrews or the Chinese or the Norse
Or if Norse writings had mentioned Hebrew, Chinese, or Mayan people
(Just examples, feel free to insert the name of any culture or people)

Or maybe ... If several cultures each had scriptures that contained segments of what was meant to be a longer story.
Like you would have to put the scriptures of 5 or 7 or more different cultures together in order to get a complete story.
(Why isn't it like that?)

Or how about if we looked at scriptures from an array of different cultures and found...

That their prophecies were extremely similar (and unambiguous)

That their laws were extremely similar (and not human responses to their environmental or cultural conditions)

That they all made the same predictions about the future of world history

That they all made the same predictions about the cosmos that science later validated (information that they could not have worked out by making calculations about the visible constellations or something)

Basically for me, the evidence that anybody's scripture is of supernatural origin would be this kind of connection, if people in one part of the world were writing either about people from another part of the world, or writing very similarly to people from another part of the world, with whom they would have had no opportunity for natural contact.

Since this type of clear cut information doesn't seem to be abundant or ... why is anybody ever frustrated with agnostics?
 
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