Looking for thoughtful Muslim dialogue partner

[RabbiO]

Lol, no problem, I am in the U.S.

As am I. I want to frame an answer to a question/comment you made and I want to reach back to my secular law years and it is easier if we’re both living in countries with thevdame orvsimilar legal foundations.

 

[DerekhHikmah]

As am I. I want to frame an answer to a question/comment you made and I want to reach back to my secular law years and it is easier if we’re both living in countries with thevdame orvsimilar legal foundations.

Ok go ahead, I want to know what you think about Jesus' response.

 

[Craz]

Ok go ahead, I want to know what you think about Jesus' response.

Welcome to IF & PMFJI

RabbiO is away (Away).

I don't know what RabbiO will answer, but being a former religious Jew myself, I would have answered that the stories and quotes about Jesus mentioned, all come from the NT, which hold no authority for Jews.
In other words it's fake news for the Jews. (Eta)otherwise they'd all be Christians :>).

 

[DerekhHikmah]

I don't know what RabbiO will answer, but being a former religious Jew myself, I would have answered that the stories and quotes about Jesus mentioned, all come from the NT, which hold no authority for Jews.
In other words it's fake news for the Jews. (Eta)otherwise they'd all be Christians :>).

Yes, I understand that the Greek Scriptures and Jesus as Messiah are not held as authoritative within Judaism, because yeah, like you said, they would then be Christian. My question to RabbiO was more about how Jesus and the Gospel accounts were addressing interpretive questions surrounding Shabbat and the authority behind its intended meaning.

What I was trying to point to is how Shabbat was not primarily only around restricting activity, but had an intention and purpose, of delight and entering God’s rest. Psalm 95 connected this entering of God’s rest with trust and obedience, not only the outward legalistic regulation.

So when Jesus says, “The Sabbath was made for man,” and defends plucking grain while walking through a field, I wonder if he was challenging an understanding of the Law that had, in some cases, become overly burdensome or disconnected from the deeper purpose of covenant rest, mercy, and delight in God.

Also, the entire Tanakh seems to create an expectation that Jehovah God would raise up a prophet and promised seed through whom restoration and blessing would come to mankind (Genesis 12:1–3; 22:16–18; 49:10; Numbers 24:17; 2 Samuel 7:16; Isaiah 9:6, etc.). And Deuteronomy 18:18 is even more explicit about a prophet being raised up like Moses: “I will put my words in his mouth.”

So, from the perspective of the Gospel accounts, the central question is not merely about differing interpretations of mitzvot, but whether Jesus claimed authority as the one through whom Torah itself was being unveiled and fulfilled. Whether one accepts that claim or not, it still seems to me to be a meaningful point worth considering from within the broader direction of the Tanakh, because at that point the question becomes less about isolated legal rulings, and more about the authority and identity of the one interpreting them, and what authority a prophet like Moses would actually possess if Jehovah truly placed His words in his mouth.

 

[Craz]

Yes, I understand that the Greek Scriptures and Jesus as Messiah are not held as authoritative within Judaism, because yeah, like you said, they would then be Christian. My question to RabbiO was more about how Jesus and the Gospel accounts were addressing interpretive questions surrounding Shabbat and the authority behind its intended meaning.

What I was trying to point to is how Shabbat was not primarily only around restricting activity, but had an intention and purpose, of delight and entering God’s rest. Psalm 95 connected this entering of God’s rest with trust and obedience, not only the outward legalistic regulation.

So when Jesus says, “The Sabbath was made for man,” and defends plucking grain while walking through a field, I wonder if he was challenging an understanding of the Law that had, in some cases, become overly burdensome or disconnected from the deeper purpose of covenant rest, mercy, and delight in God.

Also, the entire Tanakh seems to create an expectation that Jehovah God would raise up a prophet and promised seed through whom restoration and blessing would come to mankind (Genesis 12:1–3; 22:16–18; 49:10; Numbers 24:17; 2 Samuel 7:16; Isaiah 9:6, etc.). And Deuteronomy 18:18 is even more explicit about a prophet being raised up like Moses: “I will put my words in his mouth.”

So, from the perspective of the Gospel accounts, the central question is not merely about differing interpretations of mitzvot, but whether Jesus claimed authority as the one through whom Torah itself was being unveiled and fulfilled. Whether one accepts that claim or not, it still seems to me to be a meaningful point worth considering from within the broader direction of the Tanakh, because at that point the question becomes less about isolated legal rulings, and more about the authority and identity of the one interpreting them, and what authority a prophet like Moses would actually possess if Jehovah truly placed His words in his mouth.

Well, maybe I shouldn't have answered you. I will leave it to RabbiO to answer, if he chooses to.
What I see is that you are another Christian(Jehova Witness?) trying to prove that Jesus was prophesied in the TaNach.
(I may get reprimanded for this comment, if so, so be it.)

 

[DerekhHikmah]

Well, maybe I shouldn't have answered you. I will leave it to RabbiO to answer, if he chooses to.
What I see is that you are another Christian(Jehova Witness?) trying to prove that Jesus was prophesied in the TaNach.
(I may get reprimanded for this comment, if so, so be it.)

No that is quite alright thanks for responding, and yes, I am a Christian that is fair as well. Let's just take Jesus out of this altogether for now then. You said you were 'a former religious Jew' so may I ask you what do you see as the overall message and direction of the Tanakh? What do you see as the purpose behind God's covenant with Abraham, the binding of Isaac, the calling of Israel, the kingdom covenant with David, and the promises of restoration? It's been about 2,500 years since Malachi, so when you step back and look at the Tanakh as a whole, what future did its authors and prophets expect God to bring about?

 

[Craz]

No that is quite alright thanks for responding, and yes, I am a Christian that is fair as well. Let's just take Jesus out of this altogether for now then. You said you were 'a former religious Jew' so may I ask you what do you see as the overall message and direction of the Tanakh? What do you see as the purpose behind God's covenant with Abraham, the binding of Isaac, the calling of Israel, the kingdom covenant with David, and the promises of restoration? It's been about 2,500 years since Malachi, so when you step back and look at the Tanakh as a whole, what future did its authors and prophets expect God to bring about?

Just to clarify my last post to you.
I would have had no objection to your post if you had posted it to anyone but an obviously religious Jew(RabbiO).
I am well aware that Christianity has adopted the Tanach as part of their cannon. I see a lot of energy wasted in trying to to prove Chistianity from the Tanach.
Isn't the NT enough?(rhetorical question)

My closest living friend is a Christian and we have spent many hours discussing scripture and explaining the Jewish version of these things vs his (Christian) view.

In answer to your question above. I am no longer a theist, so my interest is purely academic. Also it doesn't mean I cannot share knowledge I have. I think the Bible is vastly myth sprinkled with history. I think many of the main characters are made up to be archetypes for people to relate to.
I could give an answer as to how I would answer if I was religious, but I'd rather not, because it would all be supposition.

Your question is better for RabbiO or any other practising Jew, who can answer from a position of faith/belief.

I probably shouldn't have replied in the first instance. I apologise to anyone who has been offended here.

Cheers.

 

[DerekhHikmah]

Just to clarify my last post to you.
I would have had no objection to your post if you had posted it to anyone but an obviously religious Jew(RabbiO).
I am well aware that Christianity has adopted the Tanach as part of their cannon. I see a lot of energy wasted in trying to to prove Chistianity from the Tanach.
Isn't the NT enough?(rhetorical question)

My closest living friend is a Christian and we have spent many hours discussing scripture and explaining the Jewish version of these things vs his (Christian) view.

In answer to your question above. I am no longer a theist, so my interest is purely academic. Also it doesn't mean I cannot share knowledge I have. I think the Bible is vastly myth sprinkled with history. I think many of the main characters are made up to be archetypes for people to relate to.
I could give an answer as to how I would answer if I was religious, but I'd rather not, because it would all be supposition.

Your question is better for RabbiO or any other practising Jew, who can answer from a position of faith/belief.

I probably shouldn't have replied in the first instance. I apologise to anyone who has been offended here.

Cheers.

No worries at all, thank you for taking the time to clarify your position and I apologize I should have been quicker to listen. That actually helps me understand where you're coming from. I had assumed you were still approaching these questions from within a religious Jewish framework. May I ask what swayed your mind away from theism? Also, do you think Abraham or Moses or king David are archetypes only, or real historical people as well?

 

[Craz]

No worries at all, thank you for taking the time to clarify your position and I apologize I should have been quicker to listen. That actually helps me understand where you're coming from. I had assumed you were still approaching these questions from within a religious Jewish framework. May I ask what swayed your mind away from theism? Also, do you think Abraham or Moses or king David are archetypes only, or real historical people as well?

I'm not sure exactly when I moved away from practising Judaism, suffice it to say that if I was asked, I would say I am a secular Jew. After that, I came into contact with a Guru who claimed he could show people God face to face, i.e. a direct experience.

So, I went to receive initiation into this Knowledge of God and had (so it seemed at the time) a life-changing experience. So much so, that I divorced my wife who was not interested in this Guru who I wanted to follow. Also, with that package, came the belief that this Guru is the
incarnation of God for this age.
We were also told that Moses, Jesus, Krishna, Muhammed etc were all bringers of this same knowledge.
So here was I, in a belief system that worships a man as God. The antithesis of Judaism.

I was living in Jerusalem at the time and was expecting a backlash from the community which I was part of, however only one person stopped talking to me saying I was an apikoros(heretic), someone who knows the law and doesn't follow it. Others, showed some interest and invited me to give them a talk.

To cut the story short, I followed the Guru around the world and ended up in England, my country of birth. I stayed with him for 23 years after which I left him and his organisation because of his unacceptable behaviour(which I don't want to talk about here).
Suffice it to say, I realised he could not possibly be God in human form.
I also began to meet and speak with other followers of different Gurus and discovered that this 'knowledge' was not unique to my Guru.
Also, this in the 90s when I came onto the internet and realise why my Guru and and other Gurus were against the internet initially.(Now they milk it!).

So, I didn't stop believing God, I was just left as a Theist. I saw all the past teachers/prophets as humans, none as incarnations.
I was also left with an appreciation of Dharmic writings, which pointed me to look inside myself for answers. For example I found the teachings and stories about Krishna, Kabir, Guru Nanak and their poetry very uplifting. and inspiring towards an appreciation of life/existence itself.
No need for a particular belief. I saw all the myriad of gods as different expressions of human consciousness, not as literal gods.

Re: Theism
10-15 years ago, I wanted to know if I am a theist or not, so I looked up the formal definition, something I had never done and got this:

1. Theism (noun)
   1. belief in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe

I could not believe such a being exists that would allow such imposters(like my Guru) would exist and allow such wickedness in the world.

Nowadays, I rather like the Dharmic concept of Brahman as to the source of all existence. There is no requirement to be a Theist to accept Brahman. That's why in Hinduism, being a non-Theist is acceptable.


I think King David might have been a real leader as historical remnants have been found in Israel(I think).
Moses & Abraham are probably archetypes. (Every story need wonderful heroes)



So, I see this thread has gone completely off topic.
Here's hoping that a Muslim will reply or even maybe RabbiO.

Craz

​

1. belief in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe

 

[muhammad_isa]

I could not believe such a being exists that would allow such imposters(like my Guru) would exist and allow such wickedness in the world..

Yes .. that looks very much like a part of the so-called "problem of evil".
Why does G-d allow devils to exist? Why did G-d make us of independent mind,
if He knew that some of us would veer towards evil?

I guess we can only imagine, and find out for sure (or not) when we die.

 

[DerekhHikmah]

I'm not sure exactly when I moved away from practising Judaism, suffice it to say that if I was asked, I would say I am a secular Jew. After that, I came into contact with a Guru who claimed he could show people God face to face, i.e. a direct experience.

So, I went to receive initiation into this Knowledge of God and had (so it seemed at the time) a life-changing experience. So much so, that I divorced my wife who was not interested in this Guru who I wanted to follow. Also, with that package, came the belief that this Guru is the
incarnation of God for this age.
We were also told that Moses, Jesus, Krishna, Muhammed etc were all bringers of this same knowledge.
So here was I, in a belief system that worships a man as God. The antithesis of Judaism.

I was living in Jerusalem at the time and was expecting a backlash from the community which I was part of, however only one person stopped talking to me saying I was an apikoros(heretic), someone who knows the law and doesn't follow it. Others, showed some interest and invited me to give them a talk.

To cut the story short, I followed the Guru around the world and ended up in England, my country of birth. I stayed with him for 23 years after which I left him and his organisation because of his unacceptable behaviour(which I don't want to talk about here).
Suffice it to say, I realised he could not possibly be God in human form.
I also began to meet and speak with other followers of different Gurus and discovered that this 'knowledge' was not unique to my Guru.
Also, this in the 90s when I came onto the internet and realise why my Guru and and other Gurus were against the internet initially.(Now they milk it!).

So, I didn't stop believing God, I was just left as a Theist. I saw all the past teachers/prophets as humans, none as incarnations.
I was also left with an appreciation of Dharmic writings, which pointed me to look inside myself for answers. For example I found the teachings and stories about Krishna, Kabir, Guru Nanak and their poetry very uplifting. and inspiring towards an appreciation of life/existence itself.
No need for a particular belief. I saw all the myriad of gods as different expressions of human consciousness, not as literal gods.

Re: Theism
10-15 years ago, I wanted to know if I am a theist or not, so I looked up the formal definition, something I had never done and got this:

1. Theism (noun)
   1. belief in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe

I could not believe such a being exists that would allow such imposters(like my Guru) would exist and allow such wickedness in the world.

Nowadays, I rather like the Dharmic concept of Brahman as to the source of all existence. There is no requirement to be a Theist to accept Brahman. That's why in Hinduism, being a non-Theist is acceptable.


I think King David might have been a real leader as historical remnants have been found in Israel(I think).
Moses & Abraham are probably archetypes. (Every story need wonderful heroes)



So, I see this thread has gone completely off topic.
Here's hoping that a Muslim will reply or even maybe RabbiO.

Craz

​

1. belief in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe

Craz, I am deeply touched by this story, and I am sorry that you went through that and felt that disillusionment from that Guru after so many years. That must have hurt tremendously, and I would imagine that it would be hard to trust after an experience like that, I am truly sorry. I can see why you may be hesitant around claims of spiritual authority.

If I may ask further, although this Guru wasn't a Messiah that he claimed to be, what do you think you were longing for in that Guru? You describe the experience as life-changing at the time, and despite your later disillusionment with him as a person, I wonder what it was that drew you so strongly in the first place.

Also, you mentioned the concepts of Brahman, Krishna, and the Dharmic traditions. I am not by any means familiar with Hindu or Eastern philosophy, but do you see these figures primarily as archetypes and expressions of our consciousness? And do you see that longing in us as something real, or as pointing toward something real in our experience, even if it gets attached to something that may not fully align with its reality?

 

[Craz]

Craz, I am deeply touched by this story, and I am sorry that you went through that and felt that disillusionment from that Guru after so many years. That must have hurt tremendously, and I would imagine that it would be hard to trust after an experience like that, I am truly sorry. I can see why you may be hesitant around claims of spiritual authority.

If I may ask further, although this Guru wasn't a Messiah that he claimed to be, what do you think you were longing for in that Guru? You describe the experience as life-changing at the time, and despite your later disillusionment with him as a person, I wonder what it was that drew you so strongly in the first place.

The life-changing experience was the actual initiation into the meditation. I had a very direct experience of things I had never seen before. There was initially white-light, very gentle & calming as well sounds , then there was the revelation of 'The True Name of God', which was not a spoken word, i.e. not a mantra, but an experience of something beyond the breathe.

What grabbed me, besides the WOWness of all this was that it was all familiar. There was also a way to taste a divine liquid that comes down onto your tongue (nectar). Very sweet.
It felt like coming home.

Then the instructor brought out several scriptures showing us where this knowledge is mentioned.
I remember the some of the NT quotes (I'mm looking them up to be correct, using NWT)
Matthew 6:22
The Bible verse you are looking for is Matthew 6:22, which states: "The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light."
This describes the light experience seen with eyes closed

John 4:14 (NWT) states: "But whoever drinks the water I give will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life."



The taste is just something else, I've met a few people who have experienced this. When I have spoken of this to otheres they usually think I am nuts(understandably!)
So, to summarise the initiation consisted of 4 meditation techniques, light, sound, Holy Name, nectar. At that time we were instrycyd to practce 1 hour in the morning and 1 hour at evening/night.
Of course all this was sprinkled with religiosity from most religions.
It was easy for me to believe that this is the ultimate truth/God.

The Guru was God-incarnate who was on Earth to bring this knowledge to everyone and we were here to serve in helping to spread this knowledge.
(There' a lot more, but I'm sure you get the idea). BTW, this was over 50 years ago with no internet.

Also, you mentioned the concepts of Brahman, Krishna, and the Dharmic traditions. I am not by any means familiar with Hindu or Eastern philosophy, but do you see these figures primarily as archetypes and expressions of our consciousness?

Brahman is the substrate of all existence. I think of it like the canvas of any painting. So, wherever there is existence, there is Brahman. I suggest you google Brahman to get a more thorough understanding. But, to be clear, I don't think Brahman is a concept. It is real.
Regarding Krishna, I have no idea id he really did exist, but it matters not because the stories have deep and joyful meanings to me.

And do you see that longing in us as something real, or as pointing toward something real in our experience, even if it gets attached to something that may not fully align with its reality?

I don't think that everyone does have a longing. I didn't until I was told that I did, it was part of the preparation for this 'holy' knowledge.


ETA I can still meditate and have said experiences, but I make no association with anything external to myself.
I do think that many of the ancient seers/saits/holymen did have experience and were mystified.
Hence they created the gods.
Just my own theory.

 

[DerekhHikmah]

The life-changing experience was the actual initiation into the meditation. I had a very direct experience of things I had never seen before. There was initially white-light, very gentle & calming as well sounds , then there was the revelation of 'The True Name of God', which was not a spoken word, i.e. not a mantra, but an experience of something beyond the breathe.

What grabbed me, besides the WOWness of all this was that it was all familiar. There was also a way to taste a divine liquid that comes down onto your tongue (nectar). Very sweet.
It felt like coming home.

Then the instructor brought out several scriptures showing us where this knowledge is mentioned.
I remember the some of the NT quotes (I'mm looking them up to be correct, using NWT)
Matthew 6:22
The Bible verse you are looking for is Matthew 6:22, which states: "The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light."
This describes the light experience seen with eyes closed

John 4:14 (NWT) states: "But whoever drinks the water I give will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life."



The taste is just something else, I've met a few people who have experienced this. When I have spoken of this to otheres they usually think I am nuts(understandably!)
So, to summarise the initiation consisted of 4 meditation techniques, light, sound, Holy Name, nectar. At that time we were instrycyd to practce 1 hour in the morning and 1 hour at evening/night.
Of course all this was sprinkled with religiosity from most religions.
It was easy for me to believe that this is the ultimate truth/God.

The Guru was God-incarnate who was on Earth to bring this knowledge to everyone and we were here to serve in helping to spread this knowledge.
(There' a lot more, but I'm sure you get the idea). BTW, this was over 50 years ago with no internet.





Brahman is the substrate of all existence. I think of it like the canvas of any painting. So, wherever there is existence, there is Brahman. I suggest you google Brahman to get a more thorough understanding. But, to be clear, I don't think Brahman is a concept. It is real.
Regarding Krishna, I have no idea id he really did exist, but it matters not because the stories have deep and joyful meanings to me.



I don't think that everyone does have a longing. I didn't until I was told that I did, it was part of the preparation for this 'holy' knowledge.


ETA I can still meditate and have said experiences, but I make no association with anything external to myself.
I do think that many of the ancient seers/saits/holymen did have experience and were mystified.
Hence they created the gods.
Just my own theory.

Wow, thanks for explaining all that. I had to think about what to say to this for a few days now. I do have a question, and I hope it does not come across as challenging you in a negative way. I am genuinely curious.

Since you came from a Jewish background, did Judaism as you received it feel like it was just outward observance, like laws, rituals, community and identity? In other words, did it feel removed from direct prophetic experience? I ask because there are many deep threads of Jewish esoteric spirituality, Kabbalah, the Zohar, and later Hasidism, etc. Where you are not aware of those at the time? (Of course, pre-internet back then.) Or did it just fulfill this spiritual longing that you found in this particular initiation? And have you later in life studied in these Jewish esoteric traditions?

I have another question. When you grew up and learned the stories of scripture, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, and so on, did you feel that these were your direct ancestors and sacred history? Or did you understand early on that this was mythology? You said, "Regarding Krishna, I have no idea id he really did exist, but it matters not because the stories have deep and joyful meanings to me." Do you feel similarly about Abraham, Joseph, or Moses, or is there a different feeling there because of your Jewish background?

Also, another question regarding your ontology. I did google Brahman; sorry I think I understand now. You said "But, to be clear, I don't think Brahman is a concept. It is real." I would totally agree with you. So that raises the question for me around archetyes. Are archetypes projections of the mind in your opinion, or that archetypes exist in themselves independent of human mind? Could you imagine perhaps a symbolic order or plane of reality that has its own laws and structure, binding inner and outer, visible and invisible?

 

[Craz]

Wow, thanks for explaining all that. I had to think about what to say to this for a few days now. I do have a question, and I hope it does not come across as challenging you in a negative way. I am genuinely curious.

No problem, but before I answer, I am curious as to which sect/brand of Christianity you are a member of? Any particullar church?

Since you came from a Jewish background, did Judaism as you received it feel like it was just outward observance, like laws, rituals, community and identity? In other words, did it feel removed from direct prophetic experience? I ask because there are many deep threads of Jewish esoteric spirituality, Kabbalah, the Zohar, and later Hasidism, etc. Where you are not aware of those at the time? (Of course, pre-internet back then.)

My primary and secondry schools were all (Religious)Jewish, where Tanach and secular education took place. In my earlier years there , I wasn't particularly religious although I did learn Classical Hebrew and learnt to read/sing from Torah scrolls for my Bar Mitzva. I also sometimes would attend synagogue with my dad when he went.
However from my early teens I did take an interst in mysticism. My father had a copy of the Zohar,which I read. It did strike a chord, in that I thought there was something more to life than meets the eye.

I remember one part where the author describes, what I would call today, a trancedental experience. They describe a vision/meditation where they see "'colours issuing forth' and at the top a pure white light, beyond which nothing can ne known. The ayn-sof." These may not be the exact words,my memory is bit shaky, but I'm sure you get the drift.
Anyway, reading this made me think and want to belive that there is more to life than the mundane.
Another point that impressed me was that the author sometime expressed doubt in the innerrancy of the Halacha. ( My schools were highly orthodox.)
I was aware of Hasidic stories and Masters, such as the Baal Shem-tov.
This was all during my early teens.
Some years later I emmigrated to Israel at the time of the 1967 war. It was there I began to practise the religion more sincerely and for a few years really enjoyed it, especially because the Torah was all about 'the land of Israel' and I could pray in all the holy places. This lasted a few years, after which I began to drift away from the religion. I was by no means rich and had to work hard to suppport myself. I emigrated there with £50.
I was becoming a secular Israeli who belived in Hashem(God).
I was still interested in mysticm and held an affection for stories about The Baal Shem-tov, much like I have an affection to Krishna.
(I should also add that I was very much into the Biblical prophesies about Israel happening in our time.)

Or did it just fulfill this spiritual longing that you found in this particular initiation? And have you later in life studied in these Jewish esoteric traditions?

This initiation fulfilled any longing I may have had, I belived this to be THE Truth. I didn't need to go anywhere else.

I have another question. When you grew up and learned the stories of scripture, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, and so on, did you feel that these were your direct ancestors and sacred history?

As a child, I accepted all the stories about the ancestors. I stopped thinking about such things in my teens when I discovered girls!.
Later on, when becoming religious, my feeling about the ancestors/history were re-ignited.
As I said, being religious in Jerusalem was a big plus for me.

Or did you understand early on that this was mythology? You said, "Regarding Krishna, I have no idea id he really did exist, but it matters not because the stories have deep and joyful meanings to me." Do you feel similarly about Abraham, Joseph, or Moses, or is there a different feeling there because of your Jewish background?

My closest friend is Christian and we spend many hours discussing scriptures. So these ancestors do often come up in our discussions. We exchange ideas, where I try to give him a Jewish interpretation, but often have to remind him that I believe these scriptures were all written by people, not by or inspired by any god.

Also, another question regarding your ontology. I did google Brahman; sorry I think I understand now. You said "But, to be clear, I don't think Brahman is a concept. It is real." I would totally agree with you.

Wonderful.

So that raises the question for me around archetyes. Are archetypes projections of the mind in your opinion, or that archetypes exist in themselves independent of human mind?

Yes, archetypes are projections of the mind in my opinion. However, I think synergy can almost create an archetype. That's how new religions/cults come into being. There are probably 100s of groups that believe they and they alone have The Truth.
(A friend of mine stayed in India for several months about 2 years ago. She told she was staying in an area where almost everybody worshipped the same Guru(as God). She said, that after returning here(UK), it took her 3 months to get rid of the belief from her head).
Also there exist many testemonies of cult-survivors.

Could you imagine perhaps a symbolic order or plane of reality that has its own laws and structure, binding inner and outer, visible and invisible?

This sounds like most belief systems. Their laws must be obeyed externally (e.g wear a hat, eat fish on Fridays)) and internally (pray/act sincerely).
Is this what you meant???

 

[DerekhHikmah]

No problem, but before I answer, I am curious as to which sect/brand of Christianity you are a member of? Any particullar church?

Yes, I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

I was becoming a secular Israeli who belived in Hashem(God).

Explain that to me. I actually don't know anyone Jewish in person, explain this and how you reconciled Tanach with living in Israel in the 20th century.

(I should also add that I was very much into the Biblical prophesies about Israel happening in our time.)

I am. Why were you believing them to be happening in our time? Was it because of the State of Israel coming into being in 1948, or something else?

I belived this to be THE Truth.

Was it just the experience as proof? Were you also into Hindu scripture for instance? Did your family give you a hard time about leaving the God of Israel? Or maybe just the community and family? Share what is comfortable if you want.

As I said, being religious in Jerusalem was a big plus for me.

How so exactly? From praying at Holy sites, Kotel, being in that community of likeminded Jews, how?

I believe these scriptures were all written by people, not by or inspired by any god.

Then the interpretation will be different. That is the difference, interpretation does not reside merely in the letters of the text itself on a page, nor just in the mind of the reader, but in the meeting between a soul, nefesh, or the lev (heart), who encounters the text. In other words, if the interpreter is thinking, this is divinely inspired revelation then the text will unfold one way. But if the interpreter is someone thinking it is a human invention, even if it's still understood as a deep mythological or cultural narrative, it still unfolds another way for that person. Same words but unveiled within a different horizon of reality.

Yes, archetypes are projections of the mind in my opinion.

Ok, I am not sure if you are coming from a sort of Jungian perspective with archetypes, Jung saw religious images as archetypal and often approached them psychologically. But his approach as a psychologist or even a philosopher still carries metaphysical baggage.
Jung was working under the influence of Immanuel Kant, where he is cautious about claiming direct access to things as they are “in themselves.” In that framework, ontology is folded into epistemology: what we can say about reality is limited by the structures of human knowing.

Kant himself was working within the broader modern philosophical problem opened by Descartes: the thinking subject standing over against the world it seeks to know. So when Jung speaks of archetypes, he usually speaks of them as psychic realities, realities encountered within the psyche. He leaves open, or brackets, the question of what these realities may be “in themselves” metaphysically.

But that is still a modern Western philosophical approach. Persian and Shi'i philosophy would not necessarily accept those limits on human knowledge. In those traditions the spiritual worlds we inhabit are not merely projections of the human mind. They are levels of reality disclosed to corresponding organs of perception.

Even someone like Heidegger challenged the Cartesian idea that the thinking ego comes first. Before I analyze, theorize, or project, I already find myself existing in a world. Being, presence, and existence precede egoic reflective thought. So personally, I would flip that and say yes archetypal images can be projected, and even projected into the wrong place, i.e. an idol, a political ideology, or a false messiah, but that does not mean they are necessarily only projections of mind. If the archetype is true, say revelation, then it is perhaps a window or glimpse into deeper reality than what ordinary human consciousness typically perceives, not from projecting from below above, but an unveiling of above to below.

The question is not whether humans project meaning, of course we do. The deeper question is whether projection is the whole story.

However, I think synergy can almost create an archetype. That's how new religions/cults come into being. There are probably 100s of groups that believe they and they alone have The Truth.
(A friend of mine stayed in India for several months about 2 years ago. She told she was staying in an area where almost everybody worshipped the same Guru(as God). She said, that after returning here(UK), it took her 3 months to get rid of the belief from her head).
Also there exist many testemonies of cult-survivors.

Yes. See here I think you are brushing up against something the French philosopher Henry Corbin spent much of his life studying through Islamic mysticism and philosophy: the role of image, symbol, and imagination in spiritual reality. He came to see from studying Heideggerian philosophy (phenomenology) and Shi'i philosophy, that the imagination plays a fundamental role in shaping our Being-in-the-world, "Da-sein," to borrow from Heidegger. Corbin was interested in how religious communities inhabit these symbolic and imaginal worlds, specifically he got interested in central Asia, during the Islamic golden age and medieval Persia.

He writes:
“The seriousness of the role of the Imagination is stressed by our philosophers when they state that it can be ‘the Tree of Blessedness’ or on the contrary ‘the Accursed Tree’ of which the Quran speaks, that which means Angel or Demon in power. The imaginary can be innocuous; the imaginal never can be so.” (Spiritual body and celestial earth)

In other words, there is no neutral when it comes to the interior universe we all inhabit. As humans we are always shaped by loyalties, authorities, symbols, etc. Secular society also has its gods: money, status, power, ideology, nationalism. That is also a cult, a Molech, Mammon kind of cult. Isaiah 2:20 "In that day men will take their worthless gods of silver and of gold That they had made for themselves to bow down to And throw them away to the shrewmice and to the bats," In this case humans really have invented these gods. Yet even when people recognize them as human constructions, they can still live under their power. In 2026 this should go without saying.

This sounds like most belief systems. Their laws must be obeyed externally (e.g wear a hat, eat fish on Fridays)) and internally (pray/act sincerely).
Is this what you meant???

In a certain sense, but I want to be careful and precise. The question is whether, let's just say for example ritual acts, are they merely external signs, or do they correspond to something real beyond the outward action itself. Beyond simply killing an animal or putting its blood upon an altar, was something else taking place? In scripture it is always presented, and assumed, that actions participated in a real order of being. In Exodus chapter 29 Aaron and his sons were to continually offer sacrifices of real animals ever morning and evening this was their avodah. Now, did that just keep the priests and leaders of this big group of people from getting paranoid in the middle of the desert? Like it became some kind of superstition and made them more at ease psychologically when they did the sacrifices? Or is there also real agency at work beyond what is seen with the eyes of flesh?

That, I think, is the deeper question.

The Bible assumes a universe of layered reality, visible and invisible, inner and outer. There are malakhim (messengers), the heavenly council, the hosts of heaven. Think Elisha and the heavenly armies that the servant could not see. The spiritual realities were present the servant just couldn't see them, so Elisha prayed for his eyes to be opened. So, when I read Scripture, that is the world I find assumed by the text. What do you think of what I am saying?

 

[Craz]

No problem, but before I answer, I am curious as to which sect/brand of Christianity you are a member of? Any particullar church?

Yes, I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Craz: I thought so because you mentined Jehova in an earlier post. I have rarely seen this by other Christians on these forums.

I was becoming a secular Israeli who belived in Hashem(God).

Explain that to me. I actually don't know anyone Jewish in person, explain this and how you reconciled Tanach with living in Israel in the 20th century.

Me: { I am really surprised you've never met a Jew. I have been having conversations with JWs for years in different places I have lived.. Where do you live? }
Well, the way I saw it was that it was miraculous that Israel was reborn in 1948. It was God's gift. I believed all Jews should have emigrated there.
In fact I was angry at my parents for not going to live there in 1948, especially after losing family memebres to the Nazis.
All I can say is that when I really believed, it was a wonderful experience beinga Jew in Israel.

(I should also add that I was very much into the Biblical prophesies about Israel happening in our time.)

You: Why were you believing them to be happening in our time? Was it because of the State of Israel coming into being in 1948, or something else?

Yes, as explained above.

I belived this to be THE Truth.

Was it just the experience as proof? Were you also into Hindu scripture for instance? Did your family give you a hard time about leaving the God of Israel? Or maybe just the community and family? Share what is comfortable if you want.

Yes, the actual experience was everything. The scriptual quotes were just incidental. I needed no intelectual proof.
My father died a month after my initiation and I came back to England for the shiva(7 days of mourning). During a shiva, the mourners sit on low chairs and people come and visit for the 7 days to help contain the loss. I told every one who came about the Guru and the knowledge. I didn't regard it as leaveing the God of Israel. It was the same God. Nobody there gave me a hard time.
Back in Israel, only one work colleague stopped talking to me. He saw a picture of the Guru in the paper. He was getting married in a unitarian chrurch. There was a big cros sin th epicture, I think that's what upset Ralph. (Many tears later, after I had left the Guru Ralph reconciled with me, when I was visiting in Jerusalem).

As I said, being religious in Jerusalem was a big plus for me.

How so exactly? From praying at Holy sites, Kotel, being in that community of likeminded Jews, how?
Me: yes, as explained above

I believe these scriptures were all written by people, not by or inspired by any god.

Then the interpretation will be different. That is the difference, interpretation does not reside merely in the letters of the text itself on a page, nor just in the mind of the reader, but in the meeting between a soul, nefesh, or the lev (heart), who encounters the text. In other words, if the interpreter is thinking, this is divinely inspired revelation then the text will unfold one way. But if the interpreter is someone thinking it is a human invention, even if it's still understood as a deep mythological or cultural narrative, it still unfolds another way for that person. Same words but unveiled within a different horizon of reality.


Me: Yes, I agree. When I belived that scripture was from God, I was looking for God's message in the words.

Yes, archetypes are projections of the mind in my opinion.

{Ok, I am not sure if you are coming from a sort of Jungian perspective with archetypes, Jung saw religious images as archetypal and often approached them psychologically. But his approach as a psychologist or even a philosopher still carries metaphysical baggage.
Jung was working under the influence of Immanuel Kant, where he is cautious about claiming direct access to things as they are “in themselves.” In that framework, ontology is folded into epistemology: what we can say about reality is limited by the structures of human knowing.



Kant himself was working within the broader modern philosophical problem opened by Descartes: the thinking subject standing over against the world it seeks to know. So when Jung speaks of archetypes, he usually speaks of them as psychic realities, realities encountered within the psyche. He leaves open, or brackets, the question of what these realities may be “in themselves” metaphysically.

But that is still a modern Western philosophical approach. Persian and Shi'i philosophy would not necessarily accept those limits on human knowledge. In those traditions the spiritual worlds we inhabit are not merely projections of the human mind. They are levels of reality disclosed to corresponding organs of perception.

Even someone like Heidegger challenged the Cartesian idea that the thinking ego comes first. Before I analyze, theorize, or project, I already find myself existing in a world. Being, presence, and existence precede egoic reflective thought. So personally, I would flip that and say yes archetypal images can be projected, and even projected into the wrong place, i.e. an idol, a political ideology, or a false messiah, but that does not mean they are necessarily only projections of mind. If the archetype is true, say revelation, then it is perhaps a window or glimpse into deeper reality than what ordinary human consciousness typically perceives, not from projecting from below above, but an unveiling of above to below.

The question is not whether humans project meaning, of course we do. The deeper question is whether projection is the whole story.

Me: I havnever read Jung, Kant Heideggar or any philosophy, so all what you have about then is way above me.
The archtypes I saw/see have come from my meditaions. For instance, I have seen some Buddhist mandallas which show a series of pictures of the self as one goes deeper inside. The faces I have seen in real life. They represent different groups of people.
I saw several(6 or 7) faces in this picture. Each face represented a different stage of your consiosness/psyche as you go deeper. The final one represented your 'true self', meaning I suppose that you have arrived at your destination. (I had to laugh because one of the faces looked exactly like one of my aunts.)
This is as clear as I can make it.

However, I think synergy can almost create an archetype. That's how new religions/cults come into being. There are probably 100s of groups that believe they and they alone have The Truth.
(A friend of mine stayed in India for several months about 2 years ago. She told she was staying in an area where almost everybody worshipped the same Guru(as God). She said, that after returning here(UK), it took her 3 months to get rid of the belief from her head).
Also there exist many testemonies of cult-survivors.

Yes. See here I think you are brushing up against something the French philosopher Henry Corbin spent much of his life studying through Islamic mysticism and philosophy: the role of image, symbol, and imagination in spiritual reality. He came to see from studying Heideggerian philosophy (phenomenology) and Shi'i philosophy, that the imagination plays a fundamental role in shaping our Being-in-the-world, "Da-sein," to borrow from Heidegger. Corbin was interested in how religious communities inhabit these symbolic and imaginal worlds, specifically he got interested in central Asia, during the Islamic golden age and medieval Persia.

He writes:
“The seriousness of the role of the Imagination is stressed by our philosophers when they state that it can be ‘the Tree of Blessedness’ or on the contrary ‘the Accursed Tree’ of which the Quran speaks, that which means Angel or Demon in power. The imaginary can be innocuous; the imaginal never can be so.” (Spiritual body and celestial earth)

In other words, there is no neutral when it comes to the interior universe we all inhabit. As humans we are always shaped by loyalties, authorities, symbols, etc. Secular society also has its gods: money, status, power, ideology, nationalism. That is also a cult, a Molech, Mammon kind of cult. Isaiah 2:20 "In that day men will take their worthless gods of silver and of gold That they had made for themselves to bow down to And throw them away to the shrewmice and to the bats," In this case humans really have invented these gods. Yet even when people recognize them as human constructions, they can still live under their power. In 2026 this should go without saying.

Me: This is all way above me. You are clearly very well read.

This sounds like most belief systems. Their laws must be obeyed externally (e.g wear a hat, eat fish on Fridays)) and internally (pray/act sincerely).
Is this what you meant???

In a certain sense, but I want to be careful and precise. The question is whether, let's just say for example ritual acts, are they merely external signs, or do they correspond to something real beyond the outward action itself.


Beyond simply killing an animal or putting its blood upon an altar, was something else taking place?

Me: OK, here's something I do rememeber. The Hebrew word for sacrifice is קורבן (korban), the word's root is from the word קרוב(karov), which means near. Hence the purpose of sacrifice was draw nearer to God.

Please remember I am not a believer. I belive the Bible was written by people.
The rest of your post sounds like you're preaching., so I have no response(even if you're not preaching :>))





In scripture it is always presented, and assumed, that actions participated in a real order of being. In Exodus chapter 29 Aaron and his sons were to continually offer sacrifices of real animals ever morning and evening this was their avodah. Now, did that just keep the priests and leaders of this big group of people from getting paranoid in the middle of the desert? Like it became some kind of superstition and made them more at ease psychologically when they did the sacrifices? Or is there also real agency at work beyond what is seen with the eyes of flesh?

That, I think, is the deeper question.

The Bible assumes a universe of layered reality, visible and invisible, inner and outer. There are malakhim (messengers), the heavenly council, the hosts of heaven. Think Elisha and the heavenly armies that the servant could not see. The spiritual realities were present the servant just couldn't see them, so Elisha prayed for his eyes to be opened. So, when I read Scripture, that is the world I find assumed by the text. What do you think of what I am saying?

 

[DerekhHikmah]

you mentined Jehova in an earlier post. I have rarely seen this by other Christians on these forums.

It is God’s name in Scripture — יהוה. "Jehovah" is simply the English form I use; I think it's probably closer than Yahweh, it may have been pronounced, Yahovah in ancient times, of course no one knows for sure now.

I am really surprised you've never met a Jew. I have been having conversations with JWs for years in different places I have lived.. Where do you live? }
Well, the way I saw it was that it was miraculous that Israel was reborn in 1948. It was God's gift. I believed all Jews should have emigrated there.
In fact I was angry at my parents for not going to live there in 1948, especially after losing family memebres to the Nazis.
All I can say is that when I really believed, it was a wonderful experience beinga Jew in Israel.

I live in Middle America, its mostly various Christian denominations. So, if I knock on doors, that is who I talk to inevitably. On here I can find others from all kinds of backgrounds. I usually find that more interesting.

Was your family originally from Europe? You mentioned relatives lost during the Holocaust.
When is the last time you were in Israel?

Yes, I agree. When I belived that scripture was from God, I was looking for God's message in the words.

What was that like for you?

The archtypes I saw/see have come from my meditaions. For instance, I have seen some Buddhist mandallas which show a series of pictures of the self as one goes deeper inside. The faces I have seen in real life. They represent different groups of people.
I saw several(6 or 7) faces in this picture. Each face represented a different stage of your consiosness/psyche as you go deeper. The final one represented your 'true self', meaning I suppose that you have arrived at your destination. (I had to laugh because one of the faces looked exactly like one of my aunts.)
This is as clear as I can make it.

Very interesting, and sorry, I went on a philosophical tangent. When I hear the word archetype, I immediately think psychology- I read lots of Jung. What you're describing sounds more like an image or face that appears in meditation and seems to represent a layer of consciousness. So would it be fair to say that these visions are real experiences, but that you now interpret them as arising from within consciousness rather than as messages from an external divine source?

This is all way above me. You are clearly very well read.

Ok, I do go on tangents. What I was trying to get at is that we all approach both texts and experiences with assumptions we've built up over a lifetime—family, culture, religion, personal experiences, and so on. But there is always a symbolic layer mediating our experience and the world. So, when someone approaches a Sacred text, Upanishads, Qur'an, Tanakh, etc. you are reading (interpreting) it from within your own symbolic universe.

OK, here's something I do rememeber. The Hebrew word for sacrifice is קורבן (korban), the word's root is from the word קרוב(karov), which means near. Hence the purpose of sacrifice was draw nearer to God.

Please remember I am not a believer. I belive the Bible was written by people.
The rest of your post sounds like you're preaching., so I have no response(even if you're not preaching :>))

Ha, Ok fair enough. Sacrifice is קורבן (korban), drawing near. Do you think ancient Israelites, when they brought a korban, experienced it as genuinely drawing near to יהוה?

And I understand you no longer believe, but when you were a believing Jew, did prayer, Torah, and holy sites make you feel connected to an unseen presence in a similar way to how meditation did? Or was it just historical, communal, and cultural for you?

 

[Craz]

@DerekhHikmah

Regarding God's name:
All theistic religions revere their god's name and have a requirement for remeberence of their said god..
Some even repeat it all the time, when they are not in conversation with others.
Have you ever met the Hare Krishnas? They are known for this.
When I was with the Guru, we were meant to remember God with every breath.

My family (grand parents)came to England around the end of the 19th century from Odessa, Riga, Kiev & Moscow according to what my parents told me. Some of our people were lost in the european holocaust, others their fate is unknown.
In answer to your question, I was last in Israel in 2008.

REGARDING ARCHETYPES, YOU SAID
Very interesting, and sorry, I went on a philosophical tangent. When I hear the word archetype, I immediately think psychology- I read lots of Jung. What you're describing sounds more like an image or face that appears in meditation and seems to represent a layer of consciousness. So would it be fair to say that these visions are real experiences, but that you now interpret them as arising from within consciousness rather than as messages from an external divine source?
Yes, you got that exactly right. (If only I could write as clearly).

YOU SAID
And I understand you no longer believe, but when you were a believing Jew, did prayer, Torah, and holy sites make you feel connected to an unseen presence in a similar way to how meditation did? Or was it just historical, communal, and cultural for you?

Yes, I enjoyed being a 'believing Jew'. Prayer and learning Torah was a joy and it was all permeated with a feeling that I believed was God's presence.
All I can say about meditation is that it is much more intimate. For me, the experience hasn't changed since I realised that I no longer believe in God.
The intimacy now, I suppose, is with Life itself.
I don't go around worrying if I am remebering God in every breath


(On a personal note, I have to say that you are first Jehova Witness I have met that has shown any interest and knowledge of other belief systems.)

 

[DerekhHikmah]

Regarding God's name:
All theistic religions revere their god's name and have a requirement for remeberence of their said god..
Some even repeat it all the time, when they are not in conversation with others.
Have you ever met the Hare Krishnas? They are known for this.
When I was with the Guru, we were meant to remember God with every breath.

Yes, like the Shema, "You must place these words of mine on your heart and in your soul... and teach them to your sons, speaking of them when you sit in your house and when you walk on the road and when you lie down and when you get up." (Deuteronomy 11:18-19).
But no I am not familiar with Hare Krishna. But I do know in Islam they have a practice called dhikr, or remembrance, basically the same thing, to keep one from falling into heedlessness, or forgetting God. But this all makes sense, Jesus often got up early in the morning and pray. You should have your God before you constantly, it's what orients and guides you.

My family (grand parents)came to England around the end of the 19th century from Odessa, Riga, Kiev & Moscow according to what my parents told me. Some of our people were lost in the european holocaust, others their fate is unknown.
In answer to your question, I was last in Israel in 2008.

Oh wow, your family history immediately made me think of the pogroms. What a journey that must have been over a century ago. I am also sorry to hear that some of your relatives were lost in the Holocaust.

How was Israel in 2008 compared to what you remember from the late 1960s?

Yes, I enjoyed being a 'believing Jew'. Prayer and learning Torah was a joy and it was all permeated with a feeling that I believed was God's presence.
All I can say about meditation is that it is much more intimate. For me, the experience hasn't changed since I realised that I no longer believe in God.
The intimacy now, I suppose, is with Life itself.
I don't go around worrying if I am remebering God in every breath

This is interesting. There is still an experience, perhaps somewhat different, but your interpretation, or theology, has changed. What led you to conclude that a non-theistic interpretation is closer to reality? Was it primarily your experience with the Guru, or something else?

(On a personal note, I have to say that you are first Jehova Witness I have met that has shown any interest and knowledge of other belief systems.)

Thank you for your kind words. Of course, I do have my own beliefs too. I do feel I need to be up on my Christian history at least; I talk to many protestants. I have learned a great deal from studying Jewish thought, which I got into during covid. I read some Zohar, I liked Lurianic Kabbalah, I like Rashi, a few others too, more recently, various Islamic traditions as well.

 

[Craz]

Oh wow, your family history immediately made me think of the pogroms. What a journey that must have been over a century ago. I am also sorry to hear that some of your relatives were lost in the Holocaust.

Craz: Let us not forget that many of your people and other minoroties were also murdered in that holocaust.

How was Israel in 2008 compared to what you remember from the late 1960s?

The population had increased vastly(more than doubled since 1969). I noticed in particular the increase in Russian speakers. I don't know the stats, but there was more than one wave of Russian immigration to Israel during those years.
What I noticed, in particular, was the introduction of Russian road signs as well as other indications. Many of the younger Israelis I would chat to on the street had Russian accents.
Also there was a large influx of Ethiopian Jews, if you're interested look up Operation Moses and Operation Solomon. Also many Iranian Jews came to Israel(after the 1979 revolution).

I was only there for about 2 weeks and spent most of my time chatting to these new people.
The last few day I spent with a dear friend who lived up in the north by the Syrian/Lebanese border.
He died a few weeks ago, but we did manage a final conversation a month previously where we remenised about growing up together and emmigrating to Israel.
He spent most of the last year underground due to the war there.
He was buried near Sfat within a view of the Lake KIinneret, which was his wish. He was a strong believer.
BTW Rabbi Luria, a renowned Kabbalist spent his last years in Sfat(Safed). (You mentioned an interest in Lurianic Kabbalah).
______________________________________________________________________

Craz said:
Yes, I enjoyed being a 'believing Jew'. Prayer and learning Torah was a joy and it was all permeated with a feeling that I believed was God's presence.
All I can say about meditation is that it is much more intimate. For me, the experience hasn't changed since I realised that I no longer believe in God.
The intimacy now, I suppose, is with Life itself.
I don't go around worrying if I am remebering God in every breath

This is interesting. There is still an experience, perhaps somewhat different, but your interpretation, or theology, has changed. What led you to conclude that a non-theistic interpretation is closer to reality? Was it primarily your experience with the Guru, or something else?

Well, initially I totally related the experience to the person of the Guru. I believed that he was giving me the experience. When I left the Guru, and still had the experience, I realised my experience was nothing to do with him. It is all inside me. So I could say that I became my own Guru, but not any god.