My Issue With Religion

muhammad_isa said:
No .. babies are totally innocent at birth.
It is their parents/environment that might cause them to go astray.


As above.
When we get to the "age of consent" i.e. adult, we are held resonsible for our actions

Temptation to do wrong is always present, but we are expected to control ourselves.
Most people would think that reasonable.
i.e. that most people are able to control themselves .. hence free-will
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I've been arguing there is no free will. Check out my responses on this thread. Sorry, I do not get long on the web and cannot respond to everyone.
 
rupert333 said:
yet most good people tend to be reasonably well educated and working and of a certain nature.
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I must take issue with this. I was raised by my grandparents. Beyond basic literacy, they had no education. Yet they were as good as any two people I have ever met. As for working, is a rise in unemployment followed by an equivalent rise in bad behaviour?
 
rupert333 said:
Surely God should be punished if we do evil.
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Jesus loves us as he loves himself, he died for us.

Could there be one purpose so great, that possibly even God could not do anything greater?

Could God create anything greater than children in his own image, likeness and nature?
Could God love all his children as he loves himself?

Could the creation of the universe and life hang and depend on the greatest commandments? Could there be any other single greater purpose for God to create the universe and life?

We cannot love God as we love ourselves, as that would bring God down to our level. God gave us the two greatest commandments.

Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[c] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

The freedom to love also gives us the freedom to do evil.

When Jesus spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments. But how did Jesus love all his neighbours as he loves himself? How did Jesus hold out his hands on the cross, and love the man with the hammer and nails?

We know Jesus prayed on the cross; forgave them Father. To forgive is a great thing to do; but loving your enemy as you love yourself seems so far above just forgiving. Could the ‘Forgiveness of Sins Hang on the Greatest Commandments?
 
iBrian said:
Welcome to IO. :)

And I agree - in my personal worldview there's no place for punishment. It's a placeholder for wanting revenge on people you think have wronged you and others. I don't believe in it. I don't think the Universe does either. :)
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I agree with some caveats.

I can see a role for punishment for the worst of the worst; for tough, challenging reformation for most; for some reflection and purification for even the best amongst us.
 
rupert333 said:
If free will overpowers all taint from dna and life events then all people would do the right thing, all the time...but they don't. so either free will doesn't exist or some are born bad...which is god's fault.

Why do some become evil? It is not free will. so why?
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Free will is one of those vague ideas that is not well defined. I don't know if anybody has ever referred to free will as "overpowering" anything and I am not sure what you mean by "taint" in this context. I'm also not so sure about you referring to "the right thing" as if it were always obvious, clear cut, simple somehow. "Doing the right thing" can be complex and uncertain, absolutely everybody else can think you are wrong. Anyway I am not convinced by the logic of the next statement "either free will doesn't exist or are born bad, god's fault" I guess you could make a case for some things being G-d's fault, but not so much that free will simply does not exist just because you haven't yet seen the the outcome that would convince you that it was.
 
rupert333 said:
You could argue that all taint can be overcome by free will. But that doesn't happen, obviously. So why does one man do evil if it is not out of choice?
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I don't see how anybody could argue that. I don't even know what that means. People choose to take actions that are evil often out of desire to just do or have something - Some people claim that killing animals is murder, or taking their fur is murder, but humans have long killed animals to have their meat and fur. The behavior involves choice and planning. Most people would probably clam they believe murdering another person to take their coat is wrong, but sometimes someone kills someone else because he just wants that coat. This may involve choice and planning or a crime of opportunity. Sexual assaults occur because the assailant wanted to do so, for whatever reason. In all these cases it is physically possible to refrain from those actions.
 
TheLightWithin said:
Free will is one of those vague ideas that is not well defined. I don't know if anybody has ever referred to free will as "overpowering" anything and I am not sure what you mean by "taint" in this context. I'm also not so sure about you referring to "the right thing" as if it were always obvious, clear cut, simple somehow. "Doing the right thing" can be complex and uncertain, absolutely everybody else can think you are wrong. Anyway I am not convinced by the logic of the next statement "either free will doesn't exist or are born bad, god's fault" I guess you could make a case for some things being G-d's fault, but not so much that free will simply does not exist just because you haven't yet seen the the outcome that would convince you that it was.
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Pardon my absence. I will need to re-assert my core belief. For my own use.

The question is why some do evil(according to law and God's work)and some don't. In order for the punitive God of the Bible etc to make sense then people need to CHOOSE to do evil or good. If people are poisoned enough by bad experiences and the influence of DNA that their free will is pushed towards evil then God has no right to punish those people.

As we do not punish the mentally ill.

Knowing the law does not mean you care about the law. An evil person has an EVIL MIND. So his MIND is not the best tool to be making decisions. We cannot ask them to make the best choices.

If free will alone was enough to keep us from doing evil then ALL of us would do good. That does not happen. So either some souls are made evil or the soul can be so poisoned that it becomes evil. Either way God has no right to punish those people. God made the world and DNA. If they attack us and make us evil then that is God's fault.

I see no way out of this. God has no right to punish us. Therefore a religion that states he does is not a factual system.
 
rocala said:
I must take issue with this. I was raised by my grandparents. Beyond basic literacy, they had no education. Yet they were as good as any two people I have ever met. As for working, is a rise in unemployment followed by an equivalent rise in bad behaviour?
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Well. I am using statistical facts and you are using anecdotal evidence. We know that a large amount of young offenders have no ability to read or write. I am no genius but I was reading by a young age. Why not them? Yes. a rise in unemployment does cause crime. That is why Australia is a thriving country. Decent people went hungry, had to steal a bit of food, got sent to Oz. With the employment possibilities over there they mended their ways.

But this is marginalia. We can prove things like DNA cause crime. That is why most prisons are full of men. Did God hate men to give us raised aggression and more muscle? Hell is full of men, it seems. God gave us DNA. Along with all the diseases it causes and hides for later life. There is even a gene that makes you a killer. The Warrior GENE. When activated it increases your chance of being aggressive. Why should those people carrying that gene have it harder than the rest of us? God does not send people to hell. He does not drown them in floods. That's the other guy.

OR there is a spiritual need for us to suffer. And even sin.
 
EricPH said:
Jesus loves us as he loves himself, he died for us.

Could there be one purpose so great, that possibly even God could not do anything greater?

Could God create anything greater than children in his own image, likeness and nature?
Could God love all his children as he loves himself?

Could the creation of the universe and life hang and depend on the greatest commandments? Could there be any other single greater purpose for God to create the universe and life?

We cannot love God as we love ourselves, as that would bring God down to our level. God gave us the two greatest commandments.

Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[c] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

The freedom to love also gives us the freedom to do evil.

When Jesus spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments. But how did Jesus love all his neighbours as he loves himself? How did Jesus hold out his hands on the cross, and love the man with the hammer and nails?

We know Jesus prayed on the cross; forgave them Father. To forgive is a great thing to do; but loving your enemy as you love yourself seems so far above just forgiving. Could the ‘Forgiveness of Sins Hang on the Greatest Commandments?
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sorry but you haven't countered a single thing I posited. I am here to discuss the nature of God not to hear a sermon. if you avoid discussing the issues raised I can only see your interaction with me as a failure on your part. I hope you attempt to take my views as valid as your own and don't see my presence on this forum as an opportunity to recruit me into your faith. it will not work. I do not feel love in any way.
 
rupert333 said:
God has no right to punish those people..
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G-d is not "a person" that punishes, per se .. we effectively punish ourselves.

There are consequences to all our deeds .. good and bad .. that is reality.
If we are mad or not in control of our senses, then we will be treated accordingly by others.
 
rupert333 said:
I don't see an argument that defeats this logic. Nobody should be punished by God...therefore the Bible, the Koran are fiction.
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Can I presume you're only talking about extant perfect creator gods? There are many documented kinds.
 
Aupmanyav said:
Then, no need for a God.
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Not if you are happy making it all up for yourself..
Civilisations rise and fall .. what they follow changes over time, for a number of reasons.

For you, you don't need any Divine guidance .. you don't believe in it.
The experience of others is different .. they study Abrahamic law, and base their worldview on that.
 
rupert333 said:
A soul, surely, is a blank slate in the Abrahamic faiths.
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A soul is a living organism's genome sequence. The world hasn't figured it out up to this point, yet it is taught in the Bible.

rupert333 said:
God has charged it with one.
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Yes, He has.

rupert333 said:
In the new age arena we do, some say, become tainted by past lives.
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You are on the right track. In the Christian Bible, the Lake of Fire is where 'bad genes' go to be deleted. Most Christians have yet to wake up to this fact.

rupert333 said:
But ultimately none of our traits are really us.
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Spirit wrestles against the flesh.

rupert333 said:
Even tortured? Forever?
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That is false dogma. The Bible teaches reincarnation. That is what the Lake of Fire is. It is symbolic of the moment of conception back here again.

rupert333 said:
How is that my fault that I have no faith? My blank soul is being manipulated by past events and DNA.
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Since your soul is your DNA, your spirit must overcome the hardwired carnal coding.

rupert333 said:
How is it I am to be punished? Not allowed entrance to heaven?
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I call it God Eugenics. It's the hardcore truth.

rupert333 said:
Yet if I happen to have a better soul I am rewarded over those who had worse luck.
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Yep. God Eugenics should be terrifying to everyone.

rupert333 said:
What manner of God plays with souls like that?
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What manner does a breeder have to keep good genetics and kill bad genetics?

rupert333 said:
For some religions then the process of life is just a God making lots of people and then watching them work through the world just to be sorted into wheat and chaff. A process that is not necessary for a perfect, all powerful entity.
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How else are we going to learn?

rupert333 said:
He could just make us all perfect from day one.
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You were given a choice before conception. You chose to come here and not be perfect. You have always existed and you always will.

rupert333 said:
If he cannot do that...then we need to question his power.
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There were two trees in the Garden of Eden. He suggested the Tree of Life, but you chose to disobey and eat from the other one. Whose fault was that?
 
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