What if...

IndigoChild5559

Jewish, Idealist, Romantic, Musician
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What if we have not fallen from grace, but stepped into mission? A descent with purpose?

What if searching reveals something that seeing never can?

What if God didn't create a perfect world, but a world that can be perfected?

What if we are born here on earth to accomplish something that cannot exist in heaven?

What if it's not about Original Sin, but about Original Purpose?

What if it's not about getting to heaven, but about bringing heaven to earth?
 
I made a new account just for this. These are good questions! How long has this been on your mind? I'm curious how you would answer it. I perceive you to be of a philosophical disposition. The man whose name I bear made similar reflections, he wrote that the purpose of existence is: the development and formation of the spiritual forces, and that everything is arranged by higher laws to correct human ignorance and inherent laziness.

What if we have not fallen from grace, but stepped into mission? A descent with purpose?
Thomas Paine wrote similarly, we have not lost our standing with God. Grace means being in a better position than we deserve. Some of us are born here naturally as part of the natural cycle of birth, others agreed to help and made voluntary sacrifices and some are forcibly sent here to refine their egoistic tendency, they "fell" from higher worlds. Yet, most people seem to have lost sight of their purpose and are no longer curious about the world. The world has been stagnating ever since. First, they want to satisfy their physical needs, stabilize their life by finding a job and settling down with a family, then around their late 30s-40s, they start seeking, hoping to quench their spiritual thirst. What if there's more to life than what we have been told?

What if searching reveals something that seeing never can?
What did Einstein and Gershom Scholem have in common? Precisely that, they both said something seemed to be hidden behind things.

What if God didn't create a perfect world, but a world that can be perfected?
Vladimir Solovyov would agree with this. In his epoch-making book "Russia and the Universal Church" he draws attention to how the dinosaurs and monstrous births indicated that the world did not come into existence in perfection.

"Nothing could bear less resemblance to an entirely perfect work issuing directly from a single divine artificer. Our cosmic history is a long and painful parturition [process of birth; childbirth]. We see in it clear signs of internal struggle, of shocks and violent convulsions, blind gropings, unfinished sketches of unsuccessful creations, monstrous births and abortions."

What if we are born here on earth to accomplish something that cannot exist in heaven?
There are things that can only be accomplished in the physical world. It's enough for most people to find their bearings in order to be able to accomplish it, they don't need to know about higher/different worlds, it's sufficient to know that higher realities exist.

What if it's not about Original Sin, but about Original Purpose?
I believe this is the right approach. The talk about Original Sin, Fall of Man, etc. has a degrading effect.
When one aspect has been overemphasized, it's necessary counterweight must be elevated so that it falls into the background. All of it results from misinterpretation of symbolic expressions.

The Fall was not really man sinning (committing crimes) against an arbitrary deity, but rather, it pertains to the corruption of "the flesh" (clothes, coat) the individual wears. Why do we assume humans only wear one body? We put on several clothes in cold weather. As the Bahai spiritual authorities have made clear, the issue lies with our dual natures, our animal and spiritual instincts have been at odds with each other. Paul tried to express the inner contradiction in his purported letters.

Death is not the punishment, but a blessing in disguise. Death is not the enemy but charitable kindness, since it liberates us from a life that is no longer fit for existence. As Georg Brandes wrote, "Just as the unborn life in its mother's womb would, if it were conscious, believe that the revolution of birth meant annihilation, whereas it was for the first time awakening to a new and infinitely richer life, so it was perhaps for the soul in the dreaded moment of death."

One finds similar trains of thoughts in the ancients:
"As one now waits for the time when the child shall come out of his wife's womb, so be ready for the time when your soul shall fall out of this envelope." (Marcus Aurelius)
"Perhaps this coarse and earthly body ought to be described as mist and darkness; for at the end of this world and when it becomes necessary to pass into another, the like darkness will lead to the like physical birth." (Origenes)

What if it's not about getting to heaven, but about bringing heaven to earth?
Yeah exactly, it's not about being saved first, nor about saving people's souls as Christians believe, but restoring the earth to its original condition, before man caused a "fall" of the plant and animal kingdoms by promoting predation; the animals were encouraged in that direction. Platon taught that evil originates not from God but from a previous state of existence (a previous iteration of the solar system), the leftover parts of creation; whatever is left unused for a higher purpose is ripe for evil which has been "transmitted to the animals". Nature abhors a void, something must fill it.

Weishaupt wrote, “If people could succeed in making the thought of their continuing existence their soul's ruling idea; if they had enough strength of mind to rise above the sway and power of all present impressions, with the aid of this idea – what different creatures these people would become, what a gathering-place of delight this Earth would be, if this manner of thinking would only become the primary one for all humanity?"

It's entirely possible to transform the entire Earth into a paradise, where animals coexist, and are not forced to devour each other. We just lacked the material means and resources to implement changes which discouraged people from trying. Now they argue that it's Utopian. Utopias are not viable since they set such unrealistic, unattainable goals and they imply a state that is static. Not even Democracy is static!

Nikola Tesla wrote about how man's combative instincts would be outbred, why not do the same for animals? Dogs have been weaned off from their predatory nature to a great extent. There's birds with very specialized diets such as vultures and osprey, they do not often prey on other birds.
 
I made a new account just for this. These are good questions! How long has this been on your mind?
I have always devoted more time to just thinking over the deeper issues of life than the typical person. I find that others think its boring or irritating if I talk about it, so I largely just do it on my own. I have had a long spiritual journey. In the earlier part of my life, my growth focused more on breadth, where I learned from many different religious traditions. Since making my home in Judaism, I'm more focused on depth. I'm still asking questions. I'm still growing. But the roots are going down now, rather than out.

Going from the belief based Christian system of my childhood to the Jewish based system of action has been a complete paradigm shift. Many of the things I said in my opening post have been things I've said for a long, long time. And some were phrases I stole from a J-TV video about Jewish teachings on the afterlife that I found very inspiring.
I'm curious how you would answer it.
I don't think I can answer this in one post. I am afraid you and I are going to have to get to know each other the old fashioned way--over time. :)

I have a vision in my mind of the world that CAN be. I'm not a prophet. It could very well be that we blow up the planet. But if we can manage not to destroy the earth, I see what all visionaries see. A world where justice will roll down like waters, and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream. A world where the wolf will lie down with the lamb. Not next year. Not next century. Not the next millenia. But look ahead hundreds of thousands of years, perhaps even millions. It's coming. We will recreate the Garden of Eden here on earth, paradise restored.

I often use the metaphor that I am only a single drop of water. By myself, I am insignificant. Pretty much a nobody. But I am a drop of water joined with a zillion other drops, all forming a river, and given time, that river will carve through rock.

So yes, there you have it. I have a deep sense of destiny. A sense of mission. Maybe its objective, maybe my intuition is picking up on something real. Or maybe it's just me creating my own meaning. In the past I would have spent a lot of time trying to figure out which one. Today, I avoid that, because I can never know. Better to focus my energy on DOING what I need to DO. The cosmos can sort itself out. :) It's not my job to discern the nature of existence. It's my job to do acts of loving kindness, and to repair the world.
I perceive you to be of a philosophical disposition.
While I do contemplate things like "What does it mean to exist," I would have to say that my main focus seems to be ethics--how can I best love my neighbor as myself? Am I as kind, as compassionate, as just as I can be? My thought can spin in to how I am personally treating those who come into my life, my family, my friends, my neighbors, or it can spin out to the world and how am I making that world a better place for every man, woman, and child.

I am at heart an idealist, with all the romanticism and passion for life that comes with that. I have never been able to specialize--my "speciality" seems to be seeing how it all fits together. To me the universe looks like a giant net where everything is connected to everything else. So, I'm a jack of all trades, master of none.

I tend to think in metaphors and analogies and patterns. What I hear and what I see in my imagination is incredibly detailed. I don't think there is anything "bad" about having such a rich inner life, but there are times when I wish I were a little more grounded in the sensory world--it can be very irritating when I'm looking and looking for my keys, and I look right at them and don't see them. :)
Precisely that, they both said something seemed to be hidden behind things.
That is my sense as well. We have evolved certain senses that we use to perceive reality. I think we pretty much known that they are very primitive. We only see a shadow of what is.
There are things that can only be accomplished in the physical world.
Yes, that is a thought that is on my mind. I was raised in a family that saw this world as a veil of tears, but someday we would move on to our real home in heaven. I suspect it is actually the reverse. It's not that I can't imagine other dimensions and realms. But this world, THIS is the world that matters. And the advantage of this view is as follows: if it turns out that there are no other worlds, no heaven or anything else, then at least we have put our effort into the one world that really does exist.
The Fall was not really man sinning (committing crimes) against an arbitrary deity, but rather, it pertains to the corruption of "the flesh" (clothes, coat) the individual wears. Why do we assume humans only wear one body? We put on several clothes in cold weather. As the Bahai spiritual authorities have made clear, the issue lies with our dual natures, our animal and spiritual instincts have been at odds with each other. Paul tried to express the inner contradiction in his purported letters.
There is just way too much material here for me to reply to. Every sentence you write sends me off into three different directions and my reply is already just AWFUL it's so long. We just need to slow this down. We have all the time in the world.

Thank you for your lovely reply. :)
 
I am at heart an idealist, with all the romanticism and passion for life that comes with that. I have never been able to specialize--my "speciality" seems to be seeing how it all fits together. To me the universe looks like a giant net where everything is connected to everything else. So, I'm a jack of all trades, master of none.
That struck a chord in me. I tell most people I meet that my only superpower seems to be the ability to connect the dots, linking up trains of thought from the most unlikely and unrelated peoples of different characters. I am also a jack of all trades, I can't seem to master any of the disciplines I've been introduced to. I've never finished any one book in my life, I pour through them to dig up what can be immediately put to good use. This is what Nietzsche wrote about in Early Greek Philosophy, how the Greeks subdued their thirst for knowledge.

I have a vision in my mind of the world that CAN be... We will recreate the Garden of Eden here on earth, paradise restored.
Yes, such a transformation can be effected. The right (proper) ideas have always been around us, we now possess the material resources to implement it, we just lack good will on our part, lack the willingness to put aside our differences and work together, because we are divided on non-essentials. In order for people to unite, they must have a common world view (conception of reality) that's rooted in reality, then they can believe whatever they want, but instead they want to build upon a house of sand.

"Man sees a future in the present; there is a vision of what can be done with the materials of what is. A dog sees the present as a present and nothing else." (Alfred North Whitehead)

I have always devoted more time to just thinking over the deeper issues of life than the typical person. I find that others think its boring or irritating if I talk about it, so I largely just do it on my own... We just need to slow this down. We have all the time in the world.
Yes, others seek distractions/escape from reality's hardships, but these are just temporary remedies; eventually, they will have to confront it. Yeah, let's take our time getting to know each other better. Platon wrote about how the true philosopher doesn't care about how much time passes as long as they arrive at the truth.

I have a deep sense of destiny. A sense of mission. Maybe its objective, maybe my intuition is picking up on something real. Or maybe it's just me creating my own meaning.
I think it's your intuition. Simone de Beauvoir told Simone Weil that the problem was not to make men happy, but to help them find meaning in their existence. It's a question I often pose to my friends: which matters more: finding happiness or finding meaning/purpose? Ultimately, I believe everything we strive for comes down to search for their happiness/contentment. For a long time, I've wondered what my purpose is, I wanted to make myself useful to the world in some way.

Better to focus my energy on DOING what I need to DO. The cosmos can sort itself out. It's not my job to discern the nature of existence. It's my job to do acts of loving kindness, and to repair the world.
Yes, our task in life is to improve the heart; by improving ourselves, we improve those around us. Every little deed towards making the world a better place improves it. Things are improving, gradually and slowly, but there are loud voices being raised about how the world is worsening, the press do not draw attention to meaningful changes.

But this world, THIS is the world that matters. And the advantage of this view is as follows: if it turns out that there are no other worlds, no heaven or anything else, then at least we have put our effort into the one world that really does exist.
I agree with you on this. It's in the physical world that everything is being decided. What we do here has its effect in higher worlds/dimensions. For most people, it's enough to possess certainty that they will continue to exist and that higher worlds exist, but they don't need to know about the details.

Aurelius wrote, "If a placable and exorable Providence, make yourself worthy of the divine help and assistance. If all be a mere confusion without any moderator, or governor, then you have reason to congratulate yourself; [be grateful] that in such a general flood of confusion you yourself have obtained a reasonable faculty, whereby you may govern your own life and actions."
 
From a Christian perspective:

What if we have not fallen from grace, but stepped into mission? A descent with purpose?
I'd say we were created with a mission, but strayed.

How do you see this mission?

What if searching reveals something that seeing never can?
What indeed.

What if God didn't create a perfect world, but a world that can be perfected?
I regard that as the plan from the beginning: "Everything returns to the source of its arising" –
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End" (Revelation 22:13).
As I have said elsewhere, Scripture says the heavens and earth were "good", and indeed "very good" – but not perfect.

What if we are born here on earth to accomplish something that cannot exist in heaven?
I do see the earth as 'not heaven', and I see humanity's role as uniting the two.

What if it's not about Original Sin, but about Original Purpose?
Well the 'sin' is in relation to the 'purpose'?

What if it's not about getting to heaven, but about bringing heaven to earth?
In a provisional sense, I se that as the case from the get-go, but that does not invalidate 'heaven' as a different kind of existence.

Good questions.
 
Vladimir Solovyov would agree with this. In his epoch-making book "Russia and the Universal Church" he draws attention to how the dinosaurs and monstrous births indicated that the world did not come into existence in perfection.
Quite – as the idea is not really Biblical.

Solovyov, who identified as Orthodox-Catholic, was entirely 'orthodox' in his faith and a believer in the Fall and its consequences and creation's restoration.

Death is not the punishment, but a blessing in disguise.
Well Marcus Aurelius was largely agnostic and ambivalent about death. Basically live the best life you can. Death is just an end, neither a blessing nor a curse, it's just in the nature of nature.

And we have to tread really carefully about Origen – One might argue he saw death as 'a blessing in disguise', but then one would have to contextualise that according to his faith and theology.

I would dismiss the citation in Jerome, because there's no surviving text to refer to, and this was when Jerome was in his later 'Origen the heresiarch' phase, so it's unreliable. From what texts we do hold, Origen seems to argue for the 'spiritual body' according to Paul, but not for reincarnation or metempsychosis as so many declare.

I also quite like his treatment of 'divine judgement' in which a person's sins are laid out before them, which in the face of the Real and the True and the Beautiful can only be a cause of sorrow and regret – sin is none of those things. This is the process of healing, the 'refining fire' that burns away all that bad stuff, a necessary step on the path to apocatastasis – to restoration of the spirit on its path to perfection.

Yeah exactly, it's not about being saved first, nor about saving people's souls as Christians believe, but restoring the earth to its original condition, before man caused a "fall" ...
Christianity treats the human as a kind of 'priesthood' of creation, there to usher it to its perfection. Humanity is creations 'gardener', there to 'dress it and keep it' (Genesis 2:15) – to care for it, and not, as we currently do, treat it as a utility entirely at our disposal.
 
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Yes, our task in life is to improve the heart; by improving ourselves, we improve those around us. Every little deed towards making the world a better place improves it.
In Christian terms, metanoia.
 
Conversations with G!d, a course in miracles, archetype discussions, choosing your parents and the situation you are born in...all interesting discussions to me.

This is exactly where the real work is. Forget about just sitting back and holding a belief—it's about action, fixing what’s broken, and actually building something better right here on the ground. I love seeing how all these different historical and spiritual threads tie together into one big picture. It’s a solid reminder that everything is connected, and our job is to figure out the patterns and make the pieces fit.

I cant imagine what Jesus, Buddha, Mohamed, Moses, would think of how their thoughts are treated today...whether they thought their inspiration would still exist today or whether we would have evolved into a thought more online with this discussion
 
What if God didn't create a perfect world, but a world that can be perfected?

I believe God created with a greatest good intention, as opposed to perfection!

Could there be one purpose so great, that possibly even God could not do anything greater?

Could God create anything greater than children in his own image, likeness and nature?
Could God love all his children as he loves himself?

Could God have any other greater purpose to create the universe and life?
 
I believe God created with a greatest good intention, as opposed to perfection!

Could there be one purpose so great, that possibly even God could not do anything greater?

Could God create anything greater than children in his own image, likeness and nature?
Could God love all his children as he loves himself?

Could God have any other greater purpose to create the universe and life?
You make me consider this was her first rodeo....and I like it.

Lettuce imagine (it is almost dinner time, we dont have to it is) that she has always been...then what did she do before this nothing? She was homeschooling as the one and only waiting for something to come into her head, something to do....

In the book she started on earth and then created the stars...as an after thought...

This all gives me something to chew on and it is dinner time.
 
You make me consider this was her first rodeo....and I like it.
God could create the stars and planet and be the greatest builder. He could create lettuce and be a gardener, animals and be a farmer. Does the greatest thing God creates become dependant on the relationship he can have with his creation as a builder, gardener, farmer or as a Father of children created in his own image, nature and likeness.

My 2c,
 
Walking down the road near my house there is a front yard with a beautiful garden. One day the neighbor lady sees the old man that lives there out weeding and tending it.

She says, "Your garden is amazing, isnt it incredible what God has done?" "You should have seen it when he had it", he replies.
 
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