Purpose of religion

[wil]

What if the real benefit is not a belief in a higher power?

Or an understanding of what happens after we die?

Or the true purpose of life on earth?

Or the explanation of how we got here.

But simple community...

The joy of shared belief...

The benefit of communion with each other...

The working together with commonality to create something we can't create alone?

What if true interfaith is understanding we are all in this together not to fight other communities, nor convince others I am right and you are wrong, not coerce or convince others to believe as you or eye...

But just to find our own niche, our own people.

And what if that takes multiple beliefs to satisfy some..

None of this is fully vetted or thought out.

I love limbo and contemplation and a place that allows it...thank you @iBrian and everyone

 

[RJM]

What if the real benefit is not a belief in a higher power?

Or an understanding of what happens after we die?

Or the true purpose of life on earth?

Or the explanation of how we got here.

But simple community...

The joy of shared belief...

The benefit of communion with each other...

The working together with commonality to create something we can't create alone?

Purely worldly and social and comfortable and material?

 

[wil]

Purely worldly and social and comfortable and material?

I am confused as to what you are asking.

 

[RJM]

I am confused as to what you are asking.

Are you saying that the real 'proper' benefit of religion is like a group social benefit? There are a lot of 'religious' folks who quietly go about their own belief without socializing and attending coffee mornings. I'm certainly not interested in the social aspect of faith.

I don't like to have to socialize with people around my own faith.

It holds no interest for me.

It is absolutely not the purpose of religion in my life.

 

[wil]

I don't like to have to socialize with people around my own faith.

It holds no interest for me.

It is absolutely not the purpose of religion in my life

Interesting...can you explain to me then why you came back to this forum?

And how you learned about your religion to begin with? There was no camaraderie, no group think? No friends in the faith volunteering on projects and missions together?

 

[RJM]

Interesting...can you explain to me then why you came back to this forum?

Yes. I don't really treat remote interfaith discussion as a social activity. It's ideally more of a collegiate sort of exchange of ideas? And when I lurk on the forum I often want to have my say.

And how you learned about your religion to begin with?

I was shipped of to a Jesuit boys only boarding school in the middle of Africa at the age of seven, and stayed there until I was 16. Farms were a long way from the few towns that had proper schooling beyond primary age. I hated every day of it. But it was a good school.

There was no camaraderie, no group think?

Not around religion. We were all (mostly all) Catholic boys. Even at a young age I was asking questions about whether Adam and Eve were real people, etc. I was told the dogma, but it didn't block my mind from enquiry.

No friends in the faith volunteering on projects and missions together?

I can't say so, wil

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

What if the real benefit is not a belief in a higher power?

Or an understanding of what happens after we die?

Or the true purpose of life on earth?

Or the explanation of how we got here.

But simple community...

The joy of shared belief...

The benefit of communion with each other...

The working together with commonality to create something we can't create alone?

What if true interfaith is understanding we are all in this together not to fight other communities, nor convince others I am right and you are wrong, not coerce or convince others to believe as you or eye...

But just to find our own niche, our own people.

And what if that takes multiple beliefs to satisfy some..

None of this is fully vetted or thought out.

I love limbo and contemplation and a place that allows it...thank you @iBrian and everyone

I see the purpose of religion, is to know and love God, and that knowledge and love is expressed in family and community.

It is manifested in
"The joy of shared belief...
The benefit of communion with each other...
The working together with commonality to create something we can't create alone?"

It also would include that "True interfaith is understanding we are all in this together.." expressed in a unity in our diversity.

The foundation of this is the realisation of the oneness of humanity, that we are one people on one planet.

Regards Tony

 

[wil]

The premise of this post is....

What if the real benefit is not a belief in a higher power?

I see the purpose of religion, is to know and love God

Yup, that is what we have been told by all religions that have been killing each other over who is right for millenia.

I am proposing, this thread is discussing an alternate to that.

 

[Longfellow]

What if the real benefit is not a belief in a higher power?

Or an understanding of what happens after we die?

Or the true purpose of life on earth?

Or the explanation of how we got here.

But simple community...

The joy of shared belief...

The benefit of communion with each other...

The working together with commonality to create something we can't create alone?

What if true interfaith is understanding we are all in this together not to fight other communities, nor convince others I am right and you are wrong, not coerce or convince others to believe as you or eye...

But just to find our own niche, our own people.

And what if that takes multiple beliefs to satisfy some..

None of this is fully vetted or thought out.

I love limbo and contemplation and a place that allows it...thank you @iBrian and everyone

I see some very different things with very different purposes, that are called “religion.” One is whatever some people at the center of some religious stories actually taught, if they actually existed. Some examples would be Krishna, the Buddha, Confucius, Laozi, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad. Currently I’m thinking of their purposes in some different ways, which I think are intertwined, or even the same thing seen from different angles. One is learning to live the best life we can. Another is a condition which is sometimes called reunion with God, and other times described without reference to any god. Another is learning together to live in a way that helps make the world better for all people everywhere. That might be the angle that comes closest to what you’re saying here about community.

Something else that people call “religion” which looks very different to me, with very different purposes, is a wide range of beliefs and practices of people who claim to believe in or follow those teachers, or to have the same knowledge that they did.

Any number of people including me might be practicing both kinds of religion at the same time, partly what was originally taught, and partly what has been modified or added for other purposes, which are very different and sometimes even contrary to the original purposes.

 

[RJM]

Yup, that is what we have been told by all religions that have been killing each other over who is right for millenia.

Yawn. Human beings have been killing each other forever, sometimes using religion as an excuse. The great wars and occupations of the past have not been about religion, nor are the wars happening today. Palestine is not about religion but territory.

EDIT: Not to say there aren't enough religious nutters out there

 

[Ahanu]

The premise of this post is....

What if the real benefit is not a belief in a higher power?

What do you mean by belief?

 

[EddieC]

What if the real benefit / purpose of religion (is) ...

But simple community...
The joy of shared belief...
The benefit of communion with each other...
The working together with commonality to create something we can't create alone?

The People of Worgl actually did this in 1932-33 - In the midst of the Great Depression,
they had found a way out -- all by themselves - theirs was called 'The Miracle of Worgl'.
-- and there were many other towns ready to follow in their footsteps.
But then the People of Worgl were told to stop what they were doing -- and they stopped.
And those who would have followed in their footsteps, stopped too.
And the People of Worgl and those who were ready to follow in their footsteps were destroyed
-- as the Great Depression, lawfully prolonged -- pushed despair and war onto them.

Now, imagine:
Suppose, if the People of Worgl -- and the people who were waiting to follow in their footsteps
had held a belief -- 'a religion' -- that when they were told to stop - convicted them instead to carry on
-- they must - it being their sacred duty to do so. What would that 'religion' have looked like ?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Yup, that is what we have been told by all religions that have been killing each other over who is right for millenia.

I am proposing, this thread is discussing an alternate to that.

What am I missing here?

As you offered "None of this is fully vetted or thought out..." I shared the values we can work with together.

So let's work on this.

"....But simple community...
The joy of shared belief...
The benefit of communion with each other...
The working together with commonality to create something we can't create alone?
What if true interfaith is understanding we are all in this together not to fight other communities, nor convince others I am right and you are wrong, not coerce or convince others to believe as you or eye
And what if that takes multiple beliefs to satisfy some....."

To acheive this we are not able to remove people of all faiths and no faith, nor the views they express and purpose they live by.

We can discuss and built mutual points of agreement and unity that will form our community values.

Regards Tony

 

[Thomas]

What if the real benefit is not a belief in a higher power?
Or ... Or ... Or ...

OK ...

But simple community... The joy of shared belief... The benefit of communion with each other...

Well, "community", "shared belief", "communion with each other" etc., are fundamental aspects of it, because it addresses humanity as such. Humans are a communal species. "No man is an island" and all that.

... and "working together with commonality to create something we can't create alone?

I think that's more of a sociological question? A sociologist would be better equipped to answer, but I think I can say that whatever the aim or goal is, it needs to be sufficient to provide the community all that it needs.

People come together, as romantically portrayed in movies, for a 'barn raising', all working together to make a laborious task easier. What I am saying is that a barn-raising is a one-off event. The community needs something with longevity, and something with reach, and something that sustains them beyond mere physical needs. The bard raising is a sign of it, but not it.

So the question then is, how does that sustain those people who do wonder if there's not a higher power? What happens when we die? What is the purpose of life? How did we get here?

Those are important questions, I think.

What if true interfaith is understanding we are all in this together not to fight other communities, nor convince others I am right and you are wrong, not coerce or convince others to believe as you or eye...

Well true interfaith is understanding the other's position. It was never anything else. That it often isn't says something about human nature.

And what if that takes multiple beliefs to satisfy some..

Then I would question the nature and depth of the belief.

It is entirely possible for individuals to believe in and practice multiple religions. It's evident in the Asiatic East, where people integrate different religions into their lives without contradiction. Hinduism is a perfect example of that. Buddhism and Shinto in Japan is another.

Cultures have evolved differently across the Near East and the West. Exclusionism is much more evident. Judaism, for example, is a religion of exclusion, a belief in my God and no other. One could suggest the followers of Abram set themselves apart from their neighbours before they'd even figured out who their God is ... and this exclusivism is imprinted in Judaism itself, and has been inherited by Christianity, Islam and the Baha'i.

Either way, whether one is a monotheist in the Abrahamic sense, a Hindu with an array of Avatar statues on the altar, a Buddhist who bows before the Torii on entering the shrine, the question then is, what is the depth and meaning of that belief?

Off the cuff, a first question would be: Can you live comfortably without it?

In Japan they have a thing: Be Shinto when you're young, for all the dressing-up and the festival parades. Be Christian later on for a white wedding. Be Buddhist for comfort in the evening of your life ... all very pragmatic, all very shallow.

Like people who go to church to be seen, to get their kids into the local school ...

 

[wil]

What do you mean by belief?

A theory, conjecture, without proof

The People of Worgl

What? Wow! This alone makes my inquiry worthwhile. Did that almost work like a barter system?

To acheive this we are not able to remove people of all faiths and no faith, nor the views they express and purpose they live by.

We can discuss and built mutual points of agreement and unity that will form our community values

Not saying in community anyone needs to be "removed" just in the context of discussion of this thread.

What happens when we die? What is the purpose of life? How did we get here?

Those are important questions, I think.

Me too, because they are important questions. I simply believe we know more now about those answers than we knew two or three thousand years ago and it is a crying shame that folks want to stick to ancient writings that have been proven wrong and cling to their sects and denominations beliefs about ancient texts which cause conflicts in families and communities today.

Yawn. Human beings have been killing each other forever, sometimes using religion as an excuse

Don't disagree, simply proposing a different discussion topic...

So much interesting contemplation. Appreciate you all.

 

[Thomas]

Yup, that is what we have been told by all religions that have been killing each other over who is right for millenia.

The question then is does the good it offers and brings, outweight the bad?

Extensive analyses of armed conflicts by the Institute for Economics and Peace, indicate that the religious element was absent in 40% of conflicts, and that religion served as only one of multiple drivers in 67% of those where they appeared. Economic inequality, corruption, political terror and state failure are significantly more powerful determinants of violence than religious belief.

Religion typically acts as a mobilizing force or identity marker, but not the primary root cause. Historians and experts note that religion influenced only 5 to 7 percent of wars in history, with the vast majority driven by struggles for power, territory, or resources.

+++

Religion fosters social cohesion, establishes moral frameworks, create a sense of unity and belonging that can overcome tribal differences, and drive cultural and economic development.

Historically, religious institutions have been centres of medicine and learning, of the arts and sciences. They spurred literacy and education, and served as the primary inspiration for architecture, music and literature.

Religious ethics inspired social reform and humanitarian efforts, providing the moral foundation for movements against oppression, the abolition of slavery, and the establishment of charitable works and hospitals.

(The sense of the autonomy of the person, for example, can be traced to developments in Christian thought about the nature of the person as such. Now embedded in the fabric of the West, while nowhere near as significant in the East, where religious thought offered a different paradigm.

 

[wil]

Extensive analyses of armed conflicts by the Institute for Economics and Peace, indicate that the religious element was absent in 40% of conflicts

What if....Extensive analysis by the the powers that be indicate that smoking as an influence is absent in 40% of all lung cancer?

 

[Thomas]

A theory, conjecture, without proof

At their boundaries, all our theories, religious, cosmological, scientific, etc., are without proof, that's the reason and impetus for the journey, to know.

The what and how we know comes about along different paths.

William Blake wrote:
"To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour"

Purely empirical science would tell us a vast amount about the atomic composition of a grain of sand, the photosynthesis process of a flower, can offer readings and insights into the far reaches of the universe, both in spatial distance and back in time ... but none of that comes anywhere near what Blake was hinting at in his poem.

I simply believe we know more now about those answers than we knew two or three thousand years ago ...

Answers to the fundamental questions ... no, they remain.

The narrative changes over time, the questions remain the same.

No-one has so far surpassed the Bible, the Vedas, the Upanishads, the Sutras, the Quran, et., as commentaries on the nature of being.

Scholars still fruitfully debate the questions, the sacra doctrina, asnd those texts still provide living streams of sustenance for millions of people – you even claim so for yourself.

I delight in science, in cosmology, for example, with its constantly unfolding discoveries, and I hold these modern commentaries hand-in-hand with ancient cosmological commentaries, which I consider way less detailed in the mechanics, but way more holistic and far-reaching in their meaning.

and it is a crying shame that folks want to stick to ancient writings that have been proven wrong ...

The Bible proved wrong? The Quran? The Vedas? The Sutras? All of them? All of it?

More often, it seems to me, someone made an erroneous claim in the first place.

and cling to their sects and denominations beliefs about ancient texts which cause conflicts in families and communities today.

 

[Thomas]

What if....Extensive analysis by the the powers that be indicate that smoking as an influence is absent in 40% of all lung cancer?

 

[Thomas]

What do you mean by belief?

That's the nub of it!