What is a Gospel?

Thomas

Christ plays in ten thousand places
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The resurrection (if I may say) of @Longfellow's thread on note-taking set me to thinking.

Whatever the source materials – and the simple fact is they are, at present, a mystery – the Four Gospels are literary compositions.

Mark's is a GrecoRoman bios (βίος), a genre of literary biography, moreover it's written in a style that suggests it should be read aloud, and not in a liturgical setting, but as a preaching – perhaps even enacted – it's a public composition, not written for solitary or silent reading – it's all too dramatic.

In Mark, Jesus simply "enters stage left", as it were. Mark sets the scene with John's baptising in the Jordan, when Jesus rocks up, is baptised without further ado, and we have descending doves and heavenly voices ... the end echoes the beginning, Jesus exists stage right – in fact His exit is offstage, it's the angel who says "He's gone ... "

Matthew uses Mark, but he ditches the theatre and shapes his Gospel to present Jesus as the fulfillment of the promises made to Israel.

Luke uses both, but is closer to Mark. His audience is a more literate type than Mark's populist mob. His is the Gospel of Social Justice.

Q is an enigma.

John, perhaps 'John the Elder', a contemporary of Jesus and known to the Twelve, roots his Jesus in the mystical.

None of them are journalistic notes – what happened precisely where and when is irrelevant to the whole. Rather, the plain fact is Jesus happened, and the four evangelists are four attempts to get across what the author believed happened.

Any question of 'accuracy' then, of the 'historical actuality', misses the point. That's the least important part of it. That misses the crux of the matter, that 'all the world's a stage' as Shakespeare would later say. For the 1st century person on the street, that their lives were determined at the whim of the gods (GrecoRoman), or according to the Will of God (Jews) was a given. That's basic 101 stuff. Factuality is just the remnant of that.
 
Any question of 'accuracy' then, of the 'historical actuality', misses the point.
It would (imo) be truly "good news" if this were preached from the mountaintop and understood by what you have referred to as an Americanized version of Christianity....what a different world i would have grown up in and I contemplate where my thinking would be today (near 70 years later) had it been the case.
 
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It would (imo) be truly "good news" if this were preached from the mountaintop and understood by what you have referred to as an Americanized version of Christianity....what a different world i would have grown up in and I contemplate where my thinking would be today (near 70 years later) had it been the case.
Like the pearl of great price, it is always there to be found ...

I share your experience – we are of an age – I walked away from Christianity, journeyed hither and yon in other places – then stumbled upon Patristic Theology, which opened my eyes.
 
The resurrection (if I may say) of @Longfellow's thread on note-taking set me to thinking.

Whatever the source materials – and the simple fact is they are, at present, a mystery – the Four Gospels are literary compositions.

Mark's is a GrecoRoman bios (βίος), a genre of literary biography, moreover it's written in a style that suggests it should be read aloud, and not in a liturgical setting, but as a preaching – perhaps even enacted – it's a public composition, not written for solitary or silent reading – it's all too dramatic.

In Mark, Jesus simply "enters stage left", as it were. Mark sets the scene with John's baptising in the Jordan, when Jesus rocks up, is baptised without further ado, and we have descending doves and heavenly voices ... the end echoes the beginning, Jesus exists stage right – in fact His exit is offstage, it's the angel who says "He's gone ... "

Matthew uses Mark, but he ditches the theatre and shapes his Gospel to present Jesus as the fulfillment of the promises made to Israel.

Luke uses both, but is closer to Mark. His audience is a more literate type than Mark's populist mob. His is the Gospel of Social Justice.

Q is an enigma.

John, perhaps 'John the Elder', a contemporary of Jesus and known to the Twelve, roots his Jesus in the mystical.

None of them are journalistic notes – what happened precisely where and when is irrelevant to the whole. Rather, the plain fact is Jesus happened, and the four evangelists are four attempts to get across what the author believed happened.

Any question of 'accuracy' then, of the 'historical actuality', misses the point. That's the least important part of it. That misses the crux of the matter, that 'all the world's a stage' as Shakespeare would later say. For the 1st century person on the street, that their lives were determined at the whim of the gods (GrecoRoman), or according to the Will of God (Jews) was a given. That's basic 101 stuff. Factuality is just the remnant of that.

Do you think that for the purposes of Jesus, no one needs to know anything about what He actually said or did, or about HIs effects on people and the world around Him? Or don't His purposes matter?
 
Like the pearl of great price, it is always there to be found ...

I share your experience – we are of an age – I walked away from Christianity, journeyed hither and yon in other places – then stumbled upon Patristic Theology, which opened my eyes.
Then I wonder why you don't take seriously what the fathers say about how the gospels were written.
 
Do you think that for the purposes of Jesus, no one needs to know anything about what He actually said or did, or about HIs effects on people and the world around Him? Or don't His purposes matter?
I think the 'purpose' is what the Gospels address.

I think The evangelist John said it best:
"This is the disciple who testifies concerning these things and who has written these things, and we know that his testimony is true. And there are many other things that Jesus also did, which, were they written down one by one, I think the cosmos itself would not contain the books that would be written. [Amen.]" (John 21:24-25)

The Gospels are 'their' truth. I think if the evangelists had access to everything Jesus said and did, all "written down one by one", their Gospels would be essentially the same as the ones we hold.
 
What d'you think I don't take seriously?

Papius: "Mark, having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately everything that he remembered ..."

Iraneus: “Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter. Luke also, the companion of Paul, recorded in a book the Gospel preached by him. Afterwards, John, the disciple of the Lord, who had leaned upon his breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia.”

Clement: "As Peter had preached the Word publicly at Rome, and declared the Gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had followed him for a long time and remembered his sayings, should write them out. And having composed the Gospel he gave it to those who had requested it. When Peter learned of this, he neither directly forbade nor encouraged it. But, last of all, John, perceiving that the external facts had been made plain in the Gospel, being urged by his friends, and inspired by the Spirit, composed a spiritual Gospel."
 
I think the 'purpose' is what the Gospels address.

I think The evangelist John said it best:
"This is the disciple who testifies concerning these things and who has written these things, and we know that his testimony is true. And there are many other things that Jesus also did, which, were they written down one by one, I think the cosmos itself would not contain the books that would be written. [Amen.]" (John 21:24-25)

The Gospels are 'their' truth. I think if the evangelists had access to everything Jesus said and did, all "written down one by one", their Gospels would be essentially the same as the ones we hold.
Maybe there's a miscommunication again. I think that the gospels describe some things that Jesus actually said and did, and I think that matters for His purposes.
 
What is not possible is to categories those things Jesus definitely said and did versus things we can definitely say He did not.

Lot's have tried, the answers differ, often depending on one's degree of credulity.

As a Christian, I'd say the one thing indisputable, and indisputably matters, is the Resurrection, but that's also the most challenging truth to accept.
 
What is not possible is to categories those things Jesus definitely said and did versus things we can definitely say He did not.

Lot's have tried, the answers differ, often depending on one's degree of credulity.

As a Christian, I'd say the one thing indisputable, and indisputably matters, is the Resurrection, but that's also the most challenging truth to accept.
That helps. Thanks!

(later) Then it seems best to me to treat everything in the gospels as if if actually happened.
 
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If he actually existed and they were only speaking of one person and not an amalgam, I will agree with the word "some"
I’d like to see if I can make a believer out of you. :D Not a believer in salvation/resurrection Christianity, but a believer in the possibility, not proven, just the possibility, of my theory about Jesus and the New Testament. For example, how the gospels were written and where Paul’s Christology came from.
 
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I’d like to see if I can make a believer out of you. :D Not a believer in salvation/resurrection Christianity, but a believer in the possibility, not proven, just the possibility, of my theory about Jesus and the New Testament. For example, how the gospels were written and where Paul’s Christology came from.
I am agnostic, I believe in possibly...lol...my mind is not made up... i like, admire, follow many of the words ascribed to the man Jesus, especially the fifth gospel.
 
I am agnostic, I believe in possibly...lol...my mind is not made up... i like, admire, follow many of the words ascribed to the man Jesus, especially the fifth gospel.
I see no reason to doubt what Iraneus said, and what Eusebius said that Papius, Clement and Origen said, about the primary sources for the gospels:
- Matthew: A gospel written by Matthew who was one of the twelve.
- Mark: A gospel written by Peter’s interpreter Mark.
- Luke: A gospel written by Paul’s companion Luke, from a variety of sources, which seem to me most likely to include Paul’s teachings, interviews with some witnesses, notes from some witnesses, and Matthew’s and Mark’s original gospels,
- John: A gospel written by John who was one of the twelve, to fill in some gaps in the others.

Maybe not the only sources, but the primary ones.
 
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I think you may have mistaken my last post as consent to proselytize.

Me thinks you are 100% wrong with Matthew and modern scholars would have plenty of reason to disagree with more of your synopsis...general belief on authorship has upgraded greatly since your four sources for sources.
I’d like to see if I can make a believer out of you.
It appears you would, but I'd rather you not directly.
 
Any question of 'accuracy' then, of the 'historical actuality', misses the point. That's the least important part of it. That misses the crux of the matter, that 'all the world's a stage' as Shakespeare would later say. For the 1st century person on the street, that their lives were determined at the whim of the gods (GrecoRoman), or according to the Will of God (Jews) was a given. That's basic 101 stuff. Factuality is just the remnant of that.
I’m not getting your point. I agree that the gospels are literary compositions. I agree that academic historicity is irrelevant. I don’t see how the point of the gospels is that the whole world is a stage and that our lives are determined by the will of God.

I don’t know if this relevant or not but I see Jesus calling Himself “son of man” as an allusion to Ezekiel, who was instructed by God to stage a play in which he represented Israel.
 
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I’m not getting your point.
It's rather that our 1st century ancestors saw themselves as participants in an unfolding drama.

The point is not what happened when, but rather what's going on – the Four Evangelists are each confronted with Christ, and their testimonies are their interpretations of that.

I agree that the gospels are literary compositions. I agree that academic historicity is irrelevant.
The Jesus Seminar, and others, try to go through the Gospels and decide this happened, this didn't. Based on what? Eventually, their own credulity. They brought certain presuppositions to the table and lo! The fruits were just as they expected.

I don’t know if this relevant or not but I see Jesus calling Himself “son of man” as an allusion to Ezekiel, who was instructed by God to stage a play in which he represented Israel.
I think Jesus used every allusion at His disposal if it served His prpose.
 
It's rather that our 1st century ancestors saw themselves as participants in an unfolding drama.

The point is not what happened when, but rather what's going on – the Four Evangelists are each confronted with Christ, and their testimonies are their interpretations of that.


The Jesus Seminar, and others, try to go through the Gospels and decide this happened, this didn't. Based on what? Eventually, their own credulity. They brought certain presuppositions to the table and lo! The fruits were just as they expected.


I think Jesus used every allusion at His disposal if it served His prpose.
Are you thinking that the story that the evangelists told was inspired by God, and tells us what we need to know about what Jesus said and did, but that doesn't mean that everything in it happened literally?
 
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