Maybe Jesus's sacrifice helped open the covenant to gentiles, and helped Jews with the transition to faithfulness without the temple?

[Longfellow]

Paul believed he encountered the risen Christ.

So do I, and it might not have been the first time for him.

 

[RJM]

So do I, and it might not have been the first time for him.

Paul believed it, because he was schizophrenic or whatever?

EDIT: So now it turns to a discussion about Paul -- what to believe and what not to believe?
Yawn ...

I'm done here

 

[Longfellow]

Paul believed it, because he was schizophrenic or whatever?

He believed it because it was true. It was the risen Christ who spoke to him.

The reason that I say it might not have been the first time is because he writes more than once of encountering the risen Christ, and it looks to me like two different times.

 

[RJM]

He believed it because it was true. It was the risen Christ who spoke to him.

It's impossible to have a proper conversation. Sorry, @Longfellow I don't have time for this sort of 'discussion'

Cheers

What Paul says about Jesus being raised is about his enthronement at the right hand of God, not about coming back to earthly life. It's about obedience to him as the measure of obedience to God.

EDIT Corinthians 15

I'm not saying anyone has to believe it. But it's what Paul wrote.

 

[RJM]

The resurrection has been discussed so often. Christ reappeared in a form he could control, he was master of the flesh and could wear it or discard it at will. He ate with people, and invited Thomas to put a hand into the wound of the spear.

His appearance to Paul happened after his ascension -- but while he was still around his resurrection was actual and not metaphorical. According to the New Testament.

It just goes on and on, posters trying to make it symbolic or metaphorical.

It may have been. It may never have happened. But these conclusions cannot be drawn from the New Testament. The NT says what it says, and cannot be manipulated to say the opposite, imo. It gives me a headache going over the same old arguments. It's not why I'm here. I really just don't have the energy.

I apologise if I sounded rude.

 

[Longfellow]

This is for anyone else who might be reading. It’s an open question for me in what kind of body Jesus was in, in the days before his ascension. What Paul says about that is very confusing to me. I just think that focusing on that is missing the whole point that Paul is making when he writes about Jesus being raised.

I think that the whole point is about Jesus being the one who will judge when the judgment comes, and maybe about obedience to him being the measure of obedience to God.

 

[DerekhHikmah]

This is for anyone else who might be reading. It’s an open question for me in what kind of body Jesus was in, in the days before his ascension. What Paul says about that is very confusing to me. I just think that focusing on that is missing the whole point that Paul is making when he writes about Jesus being raised.

I think that the whole point is about Jesus being the one who will judge when the judgment comes, and maybe about obedience to him being the measure of obedience to God.

I kind lost the plot here in this thread. It seems like maybe you are talking about what kind of existence Jesus had after his resurrection?

1 Corinthians 15 Paul talks about resurrection to heavenly life. Verse 40: "And there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort."

verse 44 "It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body." verse 50: "But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom,"

I need you to probably let me know exactly where you are going with this to help explain it better though. Is this tying into your first question around the temple? Because that is an interesting connection, his spiritual body allowed him to enter heaven itself, prefigured by the holy of holies in the earthly temple in Jerusalem. This is an interesting connection where his body becomes the temple after his baptism. John 2:21,22 "But he was talking about the temple of his body. When, though, he was raised up from the dead, his disciples recalled that he used to say this, and they believed the scripture and what Jesus had spoken."

How are you seeing this all tie into the thing before around Judaism? There is a lot here, but I am not following.

 

[Aupmanyav]

This is for anyone else who might be reading. It’s an open question for me in what kind of body Jesus was in, in the days before his ascension. What Paul says about that is very confusing to me. I just think that focusing on that is missing the whole point that Paul is making when he writes about Jesus being raised.

I think that the whole point is about Jesus being the one who will judge when the judgment comes, and maybe about obedience to him being the measure of obedience to God.

What made Jesus were the DNA components from his father and mother nursed by the molecules of what he ate, drank and breathed.

 

[Longfellow]

I kind lost the plot here in this thread. It seems like maybe you are talking about what kind of existence Jesus had after his resurrection?

Thank you.

Some new thoughts were flooding into my mind about Jesus in the gospels, that explain a lot to me. I was curious about what different people might think.

I'm not expecting to ever understand everything about who Jesus was and what he did. I just feel like I'm understanding some parts of it better than I did before. The most important part to me now came to me only after I started this thread: focusing on what kind of body Jesus was in during the days before his resurrection, is missing the whole point of what Paul says about Jesus being raised. When Paul talks about Jesus being raised, he is talking about the ascension, and Jesus as judge on the day of judgment.

Acts 17:30-31

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

2 Timothy 4:1

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2 Timothy 4:8

Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

1 Corinthians 15 Paul talks about resurrection to heavenly life. Verse 40: "And there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort."

verse 44 "It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body." verse 50: "But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom,"

I honestly have no clue of what Paul means by "spiritual body," but that has nothing to do with anything that I've been trying to say in this thread.

I need you to probably let me know exactly where you are going with this to help explain it better though. Is this tying into your first question around the temple? Because that is an interesting connection, his spiritual body allowed him to enter heaven itself, prefigured by the holy of holies in the earthly temple in Jerusalem. This is an interesting connection where his body becomes the temple after his baptism. John 2:21,22 "But he was talking about the temple of his body. When, though, he was raised up from the dead, his disciples recalled that he used to say this, and they believed the scripture and what Jesus had spoken."

How are you seeing this all tie into the thing before around Judaism?

Not at all. I don't see it as having anything at all to do with anything that I've been trying to say in this thread. I'm not the one who sidetracked this thread onto the resurrection.

 

[Longfellow]

What made Jesus were the DNA components from his father and mother nursed by the molecules of what he ate, drank and breathed.

I bow to you.


Nice to see you. Thanks for dropping by.


I bow to you.

 

[Longfellow]

I kind lost the plot here in this thread.

Possibly because it has been completely sidetracked by someone else from what I was talking about in the opening post. It took me some time to realize that.

1 Corinthians 15 Paul talks about resurrection to heavenly life. Verse 40: "And there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort."

verse 44 "It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body." verse 50: "But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom,"

As I said, what Paul says about a spiritual body is very confusing to me, and I have no clue what he means by it, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with my opening post.

... his spiritual body allowed him to enter heaven itself, prefigured by the holy of holies in the earthly temple in Jerusalem. This is an interesting connection where his body becomes the temple after his baptism. John 2:21,22 "But he was talking about the temple of his body. When, though, he was raised up from the dead, his disciples recalled that he used to say this, and they believed the scripture and what Jesus had spoken."

That looks interesting to me, and I might like to know more about it, but I won't discuss it in this thread. It was a mistake for me to respond in this thread to posts about the resurrection, because it has completely sidetracked the discussion from the topic in my opening post, and it might be impossible to get it back on track.

How are you seeing this all tie into the thing before around Judaism? There is a lot here, but I am not following.

I don't see discussion about the resurrection as tying at all into what I said about Judaism. I see it as sidetracking the discussion completely away from everything that I said in my original post.

(later) I'm hoping that maybe you still have some interest in the original topic in this thread.

 

[Longfellow]

I won't respond any more in this thread to questions about the resurrection, because it has sidetracked the discussion completely away from everything that I said in my original post. If anyone wants to discuss the resurrection with me, it will have to be in some other thread.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I bow to you.
Nice to see you. Thanks for dropping by.
I bow to you.

Don't bow to me. Criticize, discuss.

 

[Longfellow]

Don't bow to me. Criticize, discuss.

Not in this thread. In some other, if you want to. I’m not responding anymore in this thread to discussions about Jesus in between Easter and the Ascension.

 

[DerekhHikmah]

Thank you.

Some new thoughts were flooding into my mind about Jesus in the gospels, that explain a lot to me. I was curious about what different people might think.

I'm not expecting to ever understand everything about who Jesus was and what he did. I just feel like I'm understanding some parts of it better than I did before. The most important part to me now came to me only after I started this thread: focusing on what kind of body Jesus was in during the days before his resurrection, is missing the whole point of what Paul says about Jesus being raised. When Paul talks about Jesus being raised, he is talking about the ascension, and Jesus as judge on the day of judgment.

Acts 17:30-31


2 Timothy 4:1


2 Timothy 4:8



I honestly have no clue of what Paul means by "spiritual body," but that has nothing to do with anything that I've been trying to say in this thread.


Not at all. I don't see it as having anything at all to do with anything that I've been trying to say in this thread. I'm not the one who sidetracked this thread onto the resurrection.

OK, I think I understand what you are saying now. You are not asking about the material from which Jesus’ body was made after his resurrection. You are interested in the meaning and implications of that resurrection, especially in relation to Paul’s words to the Athenians.

That is an interesting passage to raise because Paul is speaking to non-Jews whose nations had their own gods, rulers, and claims to authority. He says that the true God had overlooked those times of ignorance but now commands all people everywhere to repent. Now he's linking that resurrection of Jesus as a testimony to the nations that the one that was rejected in an earthly sense has now superseded all authority and power and been appointed by God himself. Powerful claim.

If it's true that God appointed him judge and king like Paul mentions in 2 Timothy, that now carries with it a responsibility and undeniable authority would it not? Is that what you are after?

There is also an interesting connection with your earlier thoughts about Jesus’ sacrifice and the temple. During the time of the temple the role of priests were reserved to the tribe of Levi, and the kingship to David of the tribe of Judah. However, Jesus' role as both King and priest converges as Paul mentions in the pattern of Melchizedek (plasm 110 and Hebrews 7). So yes, resurrection and then ascension and later Pentecost confirm the enduring value of his work as priest and confirm his authority to later be granted kingship. That was why Jews were asking about that before his ascension. "they went asking him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” Acts 1:6.

 

[Longfellow]

That is an interesting passage to raise because Paul is speaking to non-Jews whose nations had their own gods, rulers, and claims to authority. He says that the true God had overlooked those times of ignorance but now commands all people everywhere to repent. Now he's linking that resurrection of Jesus as a testimony to the nations that the one that was rejected in an earthly sense has now superseded all authority and power and been appointed by God himself. Powerful claim.

If it's true that God appointed him judge and king like Paul mentions in 2 Timothy, that now carries with it a responsibility and undeniable authority would it not? Is that what you are after?

Thank you.

My opening post was about the theatrical nature of what Jesus did, and its real-world effects on Israel and on the world outside of it, not about his authority. Then I got sidetracked into a discussion about resurrection, then from there into a discussion about his authority I won’t discuss resurrection here, but I will discuss his authority, and I agree with what you’re saying, except that it has nothing to do with resurrection. Its about the enthronement of Jesus, not his appearances after Easter.

There is also an interesting connection with your earlier thoughts about Jesus’ sacrifice and the temple. During the time of the temple the role of priests were reserved to the tribe of Levi, and the kingship to David of the tribe of Judah. However, Jesus' role as both King and priest converges as Paul mentions in the pattern of Melchizedek (plasm 110 and Hebrews 7). So yes, resurrection and then ascension and later Pentecost confirm the enduring value of his work as priest and confirm his authority to later be granted kingship. That was why Jews were asking about that before his ascension. "they went asking him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” Acts 1:6.

Yes, but not only priest and king. Also judge, and all of the other heavenly figures in diaspora cosmology.

 

[Longfellow]

@DerekhHikmah

My opening post was about the theatrical nature of what Ezekiel and Jesus did, and the real-world effects of what Jesus did and what happened to him. In this thread I won’t discuss the resurrection, but I will discuss his authority, if that interests you. In a way my view is very simple: he has all the authority of God, from God. One way that is communicated is by God calling Jesus his son. Another way is in his ascension.

That makes it possible for people to be faithful to God by obedience to Jesus, without requiring them to be raised or trained as Jews. That makes it possible for the light of Israel to spread to all the world.

 

[Longfellow]

… the thing before around Judaism?

First I’ll say again what I’m thinking about what he did for gentiles. As God’s regent, he made it possible for people to practice obedience to the God of Abraham without being raised or trained as a Jew.

For Jews, he did a lot to help with the growth and spread of understandings that helped them remain faithful without the temple.

 

[Aupmanyav]

As God’s regent, he made it possible for people to practice obedience to the God of Abraham without being raised or trained as a Jew.

No Hindu God or Goddess appointed Jesus as his/her regent.

 

[Longfellow]

No Hindu God or Goddess appointed Jesus as his/her regent.

Sorry for may lack of precision.

As regent of the God of Abraham, he made it possible for people to practice obedience to the God of Abraham without being raised or trained as a Jew.

(later) In case you didn't notice, this thread is in the Abrahamic Religions section, which makes "God" the God of Abraham unless otherwise specified. At least, in my posts.