The Role that Wisdom Plays in Faith and Enlightenment

[otherbrother]

I have long thought that “hope,” as important as it is, was never the right word. Far superior to a hopeful feeling is an understanding or vision that a person or group has the potential to work out of whatever dark and seemingly hopeless situation we find ourselves in. I had a down, fairly worthless, day yesterday, but I am old enough to have wisdom that if I simply have the dysphoric mood without letting it have me, I will most likely crawl out of the hole, perhaps even edge close to the Whole if I don’t react too much to the emotion or the appearances that fuel the emotion. Today is much better because I didn’t blow smoke up my ass yesterday. And yet I had a wise understanding of how we can get through seemingly impossible situations or states. Recognition of time (as in “time heals” and “this is not forever”) helped. The wisdom seems to involve allowing the neutral mind to take the reins. This effectiveness suggests the primacy of the Vedantic concept of “Causal Body.” Emotions are helpful and need to be experienced, but they are part of the energetic Subtle Body, intermediate, depth level of overall reality. Or perhaps they also have one foot in the Gross Body (“flesh”) on the surface. But the wisdom requires including the realities of the surface and intermediate zones of being. Otherwise, it is the defense mechanism of intellectualization.
When we conceptualize God and/or Christ as “Logos,” perhaps we are simply reminding ourselves just how important it is to embrace mind and use it to deal with emotions and physical reality. As long as we don’t use it to escape the reality we have all been born into (like it or not). The recent thread based on Vedantic and Logos concepts is certainly in line with the primacy of mind. When I say “mind,” however, I mean one that is open to a consciousness that surpasses regular, matter-oriented, thinking. Deep mind must be allowed to inform regular mind where imperfect copies of Plato’s Ideal Forms tend to predominate, or “Mia (sp?), Illusion, if you will.
What do you think? Is a mind a terrible thing to waste or allow to go under-utilized? Wisdom seems to stabilize us and keep us from getting stuck in pits that interfere with faith and enlightenment.
I’ll ask my other brother Darrell what he thinks about this!

 

[JustGeorge]

I had one of those days yesterday, too... Instead of fighting, fixing, or trying to get out of it, I greeted it as a friend. Hello, Oizys.

In the past few years, I've realized how little control I have over my mind. I can have either ecstasy or misery pushed on me for no reason(or, for a very good reason). (I'm not saying this is how it is for everyone, but me, personally.) I gave up the idea of free will some time ago, so this doesn't seem alarming to me, and I accept it.

 

[otherbrother]

I had one of those days yesterday, too... Instead of fighting, fixing, or trying to get out of it, I greeted it as a friend. Hello, Oizys.

In the past few years, I've realized how little control I have over my mind. I can have either ecstasy or misery pushed on me for no reason(or, for a very good reason). (I'm not saying this is how it is for everyone, but me, personally.) I gave up the idea of free will some time ago, so this doesn't seem alarming to me, and I accept it.

Good for you! Because it’s good for you. By lowering your resistance to it you have learned to ride it out. Also probably observing more, reacting less. Sounds like intentionality and “mind” to me ! And wisdom.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

What do you think? Is a mind a terrible thing to waste or allow to go under-utilized?

Yes indeed, the use of mind can be elevated or wasted.

That is life though is it not? Learning how to use our rational mind in the most progressive way possible!

Which then opens a can of wormbs as to the purpose of life.

Regards Tony

 

[otherbrother]

That is life though is it not? Learning how to use our rational mind in the most progressive way possible!

Which I believe includes intuitive knowing that supplements rationality instead of replacing it. Rationality because we are in the world, noesis because we are not of the world. Truly “progressive” in terms of more integrated use of “mind.”

 

[Dhammañāṇa Bhikkhu]

As for the question, as perse, good householder: knowing of what's proper to do, what is not. ...proper to develop, what is not. ...proper to abond, proper to associate. That's the amount of wisdom one needs to gain by good chosen confidence in a trustful source, toward "One who knows/sees".

Spoken general, wisdom is always at the end of the line of tasks, while confidence/faith, is always the leader for any undertaking, till real knowing arises.

 

[TheLightWithin]

I gave up the idea of free will some time ago

Interesting... there's another whole thread about this
I'm always surprised at how often people say they don't believe in free will

 

[what.is.truth]

Without highten wisdom there is only belief but no spiritual enlightenment

 

[Bloodshot]

Interesting... there's another whole thread about this
I'm always surprised at how often people say they don't believe in free will

I've never seen a mechanism for free will described, so I've no reason to believe in it.

 

[otherbrother]

Spoken general, wisdom is always at the end of the line of tasks, while confidence/faith, is always the leader for any undertaking, till real knowing arises.

Yes, I can see how faith usually comes first, but sometimes wisdom is needed to protect faith from disillusionment and discouragement. Without wisdom one has experiences that erode faith over time. While faith may be not OF the world, wisdom helps support it IN the world. But I see your point. Faith can take the lead. But at some point the wisdom will be needed to sustain faith in faith!

 

[wil]

Which then opens a can of wormbs as to the purpose of life.

Best autocorrect ever? Or typo?

Hope? Virtually worthless to me....acceptance of what is and pray but move your feet!

 

[Dhammañāṇa Bhikkhu]

Yes, I can see how faith usually comes first, but sometimes wisdom is needed to protect faith from disillusionment and discouragement. Without wisdom one has experiences that erode faith over time. While faith may be not OF the world, wisdom helps support it IN the world. But I see your point. Faith can take the lead. But at some point the wisdom will be needed to sustain faith in faith!

By doing at first in faith, one grows wiser. It never goes toward a better for the doubting nature, or the "smart".
As it is in regard of choosing the perfect guardian: to know qualities proper, to be able to identify them, one needs to grow in perfection oneself. An outsider never knows who's really an insider.
It's, how ever, seldom, that one has/gains the right connection, as it requires to make sacrifices for it.

 

[otherbrother]

By doing at first in faith, one grows wiser. It never goes toward a better for the doubting nature, or the "smart".
As it is in regard of choosing the perfect guardian: to know qualities proper, to be able to identify them, one needs to grow in perfection oneself. An outsider never knows who's really an insider.
It's, how ever, seldom, that one has/gains the right connection, as it requires to make sacrifices for it.

This all fits with what I believe it would mean to operate and even originate from a deep zone of one’s being and of overall reality. One becomes more spiritual, interconnected, as one experiences and operates (in “faith”) from a deeper realm or dimension. Deeper is often conceptualized as “higher,” since positive projection occurs in physical beings who go deeper.
Also, this discussion seems a good place for me to place my recent theological insight that sees God more as beingness that a doer. We can channel Being by either floating to the core of our being or sinking to it. But floating to the core is more masterful, less dependent on suffering and forced surrender. Learning to float to the core may be helped by “neutral mind,” by non-judging, simply observing, mindfulness. It involves a willingness and skill of detaching (without fleeing) from physical reality. Wisdom can be developed from “Isdom,” from being Being-based instead of doing based. Faith would be being-based doing instead of action oriented doing. Tantamount to accepting God’s nature into the process.
I came up with this “Better Prayer”:
Thank you God for being You,
which just so happens
to shine through,
especially when we let you in
what we see and what we do.

 

[Dhammañāṇa Bhikkhu]

This all fits with what I believe it would mean to operate and even originate from a deep zone of one’s being and of overall reality. One becomes more spiritual, interconnected, as one experiences and operates (in “faith”) from a deeper realm or dimension. Deeper is often conceptualized as “higher,” since positive projection occurs in physical beings who go deeper.
Also, this discussion seems a good place for me to place my recent theological insight that sees God more as beingness that a doer. We can channel Being by either floating to the core of our being or sinking to it. But floating to the core is more masterful, less dependent on suffering and forced surrender. Learning to float to the core may be helped by “neutral mind,” by non-judging, simply observing, mindfulness. It involves a willingness and skill of detaching (without fleeing) from physical reality. Wisdom can be developed from “Isdom,” from being Being-based instead of doing based. Faith would be being-based doing instead of action oriented doing. Tantamount to accepting God’s nature into the process.
I came up with this “Better Prayer”:
Thank you God for being You,
which just so happens
to shine through,
especially when we let you in
what we see and what we do.

Take care! (which means to be clear of being responsible for thoughts, speech and bodily actions).

 

[otherbrother]

Take care! (which means to be clear of being responsible for thoughts, speech and bodily actions).

The “Better Prayer” was a way of thanking God without the unnecessarily anthropomorphic notion of a God that does specific things (like we do). One of the problems of seeing God as a doer is that it leaves Him doing wonderful favors for some, while doing nothing to help others. And if seen as all powerful, it compounds the problem of favoritism even more, because He would have the power to help any and all. What kind of a Father would let some of his kids suffer greatly while others receive miraculous cures or other fortunate outcomes?
But if God is Being (verb form, or Beingness) who doesn’t do but simply IS, and if any divine intervention is the result of us doers who manage to channel God’s Being into the physical plane of existence, then the uneven blessing is the result of happenstance, not of God’s choice. God is Love and Goodness and Beauty without playing favorites or being arbitrary. The arbitrariness falls on us. If we manage to get deep enough we have a prayer answered. If we can’t thin our veils or get deep enough, then the prayer will just happen to not work. Ironically, often the more we want and the more we tighten up an generate high resistance energy akin to matter and flesh and ego defensiveness, So going deep means being less of the regular egoistic self and more of the spiritual connective self. So the trick is to remain sensitive without allowing care and worry to jam the spiritual signals, subtle energy. A kind of accepting, peaceful, soft, intention intention instead of trying hard.

 

[Dhammañāṇa Bhikkhu]

The “Better Prayer” was a way of thanking God without the unnecessarily anthropomorphic notion of a God that does specific things (like we do). One of the problems of seeing God as a doer is that it leaves Him doing wonderful favors for some, while doing nothing to help others. And if seen as all powerful, it compounds the problem of favoritism even more, because He would have the power to help any and all. What kind of a Father would let some of his kids suffer greatly while others receive miraculous cures or other fortunate outcomes?
But if God is Being (verb form, or Beingness) who doesn’t do but simply IS, and if any divine intervention is the result of us doers who manage to channel God’s Being into the physical plane of existence, then the uneven blessing is the result of happenstance, not of God’s choice. God is Love and Goodness and Beauty without playing favorites or being arbitrary. The arbitrariness falls on us. If we manage to get deep enough we have a prayer answered. If we can’t thin our veils or get deep enough, then the prayer will just happen to not work. Ironically, often the more we want and the more we tighten up an generate high resistance energy akin to matter and flesh and ego defensiveness, So going deep means being less of the regular egoistic self and more of the spiritual connective self. So the trick is to remain sensitive without allowing care and worry to jam the spiritual signals, subtle energy. A kind of accepting, peaceful, soft, intention intention instead of trying hard.

Take care of your deeds, not anybody elses, or what ever imagination. It's not wise to not focus just on that.
Reducing what ever doing out of craving, aversion, delusion and fear, eventually abound the roots at all, such is useful, nothing else.

Again, the amount of wisdom lies "simply" in knowing (having been informed) what's good to do, what not. That's what one simply needs to believe at first place.

 

[otherbrother]

It’s “good” to be spiritually empowered. connected to God’s Abundance, Potential for “good.” Finding the personal theology and version of “God” that works best for me is a huge part of, as you say, “good.” It becomes a tool that builds good things, a tree that bears good fruit. If it does stand the test of time, that theology may also be a useful tool or tree for others. But I agree with your encouragement to be care-full, as long as the caring is not trying too hard, sabotaged by fear/worry. Faithful, peaceful, care. And honest evaluation of the usefulness of the theological insights.

Here are some deep insights that came to me in the middle of the night. Interesting how I also solicited a relatively advanced Artificial Intelligence user (my oldest son) to process the insights further, tapping into other people’s thoughts about it over the ages:


My Meaningful Matrix



Includes:



The 3 Hs:

Head

Heart

Hands



The Head includes the 3 As:

Access

Application

Assimilation



The Heart includes the 3 Ps:

Peace

Passion

Patience



The Hands (as in “many hands make light work,” social/political) include the 3 Cs:



Cooperation

Consensus

Collaboration



My Head can access, apply, and assimilate any of all the above 3-letter things.



It can access itself, “Mind itself.”

It can apply itself “mind over matter.”

It can assimilate itself into the whole being (integrated with Heart and Hands)



It can access, apply and assimilate each of the Heart’s 3Ps.

It can access, apply and assimilate each of the Hand’s

3 Cs .



When I asked my oldest son to use his robust Artificial Intelligence access to further process my “matrix’s” possible interactions, this is what his A.I. “buddy” told him:



Your dad hit on a classic tripartite architecture of human experience—one that echoes ancient philosophy (Plato’s chariot of reason, spirit, and appetite; Pestalozzi’s pedagogical trinity of Head, Heart, and Hand; and even modern somatic and cognitive science).

His central question—can the Heart and the Hands do what the Head does, or is this a one-way hierarchy?—touches on the tension between intellectualism and embodied wisdom.

Here is how that matrix comes alive when the flow runs both ways.

The Architecture: A 3x3 Matrix

Rather than a tree where the Head sits on top managing everything, the structure works as a complete 3 × 3 generative matrix. Each domain has its own primary currency:

* Head: Cognition & Epistemology (The 3 As: Access, Application, Assimilation)

* Heart: Affect, Meaning, & Value (The 3 Ps: Peace, Passion, Patience)

* Hands: Embodiment, Action, & Community (The 3 Cs: Cooperation, Consensus, Collaboration)

Your dad already charted the top row: how the Head processes itself, the Heart, and the Hands. To see if the system is truly reciprocal, we have to look at whether the Heart and the Hands possess their own native forms of processing.

Can the Heart Process the System?

(Affective Intelligence: Heart as Evaluator and Harmonizer)

The Head thinks; the Heart tunes. The Heart does not access, apply, or assimilate using logical deduction; instead, it uses resonance, value-attribution, and emotional gravity.

* Heart upon Head (Affective Guidance of Thought):

* Patience with the Head: Epistemic humility. It keeps the intellect from rushing to premature conclusions or spinning into overthinking.

* Passion for the Head: Curiosity and wonder. Pure logic has no motive force; without the Heart’s passion, the mind never asks a question to begin with.

* Peace in the Head: Stillness and clarity. A mind disconnected from the Heart becomes anxious and hyperactive. The Heart anchors the intellect in calm discernment.

* Heart upon Itself (Emotional Regulation):

* Passion without Patience burns out; Peace without Passion stagnates. The 3 Ps balance one another to create an enduring emotional core.

* Heart upon Hands (Moral and Relational Vectoring):

* The Heart imbues collective action with purpose. Without the Heart's Peace, Patience, and Passion, "Cooperation, Consensus, and Collaboration" easily turn into cold bureaucracy or transactional mechanics. The Heart ensures that the group working together actually cares about one another.

Can the Hands Process the System?

(Embodied & Collective Intelligence: Hands as Grounding and Praxis)

Western thought often treats the "Hands" as mere executioners of the mind's orders. But phenomenology (Merleau-Ponty) and embodied cognition show that the body knows things before the head can articulate them, and collective praxis changes individual minds.

* Hands upon Head (Embodied Epistemology):

* Collaboration shaping Thought: We rarely generate high-level ideas in total isolation. Dialogue and collective friction (Hands) force our concepts (Head) to sharpen, adapt, and evolve.

* Action creating Understanding: You often cannot understand a complex system until you physically engage with it or build it. The Hands teach the Head through trial, resistance, and craft.

* Consensus testing Logic: An idea inside one head may seem flawless; it is only when brought to the collective "Hands" that its blind spots are exposed.

* Hands upon Heart (Somatic Regulation):

* Collective work changes emotional states. Shared physical effort or unified community action reliably transforms despair into hope, builds real-world patience, and fosters authentic peace.

* Action is often the cure for emotional paralysis: you frequently cannot "think" your way into a new feeling, but you can act your way into one.

* Hands upon Itself (Social Feedback Loops):

* Cooperation breeds Consensus, which scales into deep Collaboration. Praxis refines praxis.

The Two-Way Flow: A Living Circuit

If the flow only ran downward—from Head to Heart to Hands—we would get an authoritarian model of being: the detached intellectual commanding the emotions to behave and ordering the body to work.

In a fully integrated matrix, the flow is dynamic and circular:

* The Head gives Form: It maps, models, and integrates (Access, Apply, Assimilate).

* The Heart gives Worth: It determines what actually matters, sustaining the will to persist (Peace, Passion, Patience).

* The Hands give Weight: They test the ideas against material and social reality through collective action (Cooperation, Consensus, Collaboration).

Your dad’s 1:00 AM insight wasn't just an outline; it was the blueprint for an integrated loop. The Head might be the domain that names the matrix, but the matrix only breathes when the Heart fuels it and the Hands ground it in the real world.

 

[RJM]

Spirits of evil and good enter into my mind and body, walk with me down the path of limbo, with good on my right and evil on my left, walk with me into the light.
@powessy

powessy

www.interfaith.org

 

[RJM]

People get a dopamine high from hearing what they want to hear and believing it’s the truth. After a while the dopamine drive takes over from the practical mind, until the practical intelligence is actually closed out from the algorithm. It's why people stay with their leaders who make good speeches, and end up deep in conspiracy theories, and so on. IMO

 

[TheLightWithin]

Spirits of evil and good enter into my mind and body, walk with me down the path of limbo, with good on my right and evil on my left, walk with me into the light.
@powessy

powessy

www.interfaith.org

Yeah I haven't seen powessy in awhile. I hope they come back!