JonMarc said:
i think one must be extremely careful when dealing with the supernatural. i personally believe that much of it is not of God.
I agree one must be careful when dealing with the supernatural. I just don't think all that everybody thinks is supernatural, is such. A bunch of it is probably entirely natural but we are still limited in our understanding of it. An excellent example is acupuncture- to the Chinese it is working on meridians of chi in the body, to the Westerner it is causing endorphins to be released, thus easing pain and increasing healing. One is a supernatural explanation, the other natural. I believe a lot of what we think is supernatural is really just natural, and like all of nature, was created by God.
I do think that there are certainly spirits that are not godly, though I believe God created everything, so it is all
of God, though it might not be currently
in God. Even demons were created by God, they are just spirit entities that, like many humans, chose to turn away from God and take joy in harming others. Then I think there's a bunch of spirits that are in an
of God and
in God category, that are also tied to nature. I admit that, like you, this is based on perception and feeling and not scripture. But cultures the world over recognize nature spirits, and they're pretty much like human spirits, with free will. So they might turn toward God or not, depending on the individual.
As I tried to explain when I discussed the difference between a witch/sorcerer and a mage/shaman/etc., it is partially about motivation and partially about source. This is merely my opinion, since many (non-Christians) would argue that there is only one neutral source of supernatural/magical power, and it is purely intent that makes the difference. I think ultimately only God created everything, and thus all power is His, but that this power can be usurped by others (including us humans) and some of these spirit entities are not godly. So, I think if one is drawing power from an ungodly spirit entity, there is a problem and bound to be corruption, no matter what one's intent is. For example, I've heard of modern magicians who are demonologists but claim to be doing healing and other good things with their magic, but that doesn't sit well at all with me. The ends do not justify the means. I was simply trying to explain that there is a difference between an inanimate object, like a deck of cards with paintings on them, and an actual interaction, like that between a demon and a human magician. I don't think
objects contain power outside of what is invested in them by the owner/user, but I do think other spirits certainly have their own agenda and that agenda matters. Of course, much is conjecture on my part based on feelings, because I have never invoked spirits nor do I wish to.
it is easy to see that and think this man is very in touch with some sort of supernatural power or another.
Yes and no. He might be in touch with a supernatural power, or maybe he was just born a telepath/empath. I know agnostics who were born with telepathic abilities. They can't help it. They don't try to receive information, they just automatically do. I've experienced this as well, and it is most uncomfortable. This is another case of a blurry line between what is natural and what is supernatural. Perhaps it is natural for some to pick up on others' thoughts- everyone does this to some extent. Or it could be that they do have some sort of supernatural power. But some people just seem born with certain abilities, and it seems to be more that they choose how to use them and whether to put them in the service of themselves, God, or evil rather than being directly gifted by God/evil (I choose not to use the concept Satan, but rather more a force/movement than a personal spirit entity).
by medium, or means, whichever you prefer, i am saying good or evil. of God or not of God.
I entirely agree, but I think that people choose with what/whom to align themselves. What we perceive of as supernatural gifts, say the capacity to receive visions from the supernatural, or the ability to discern spirits- I think, based on the people I know, one is just born with those gifts. But one chooses whether to dedicate all of one's gifts (natural and supernatural) to God, or not to God (either to evil directly, or through the medium of one's own ego). And certainly, this choice matters. I've met people that I just felt instantly creeped out by and
knew there was evil there, and I've felt the same in certain places with spirit entities. It is a very disturbing and distinct feeling, and no matter how nice they appeared, I could feel what lurked under the surface of that superficial goodness. Ugh. That sounds so awful and non-politically correct and unaccepting, but it's hard to explain and I can't help it. Suffice it to say I've met shamans and such who "felt" in God, those who felt like quacks, and those that felt wrong/out of God. I've also met avowedly Christian healers/ministers/etc. that ran across the same spectrum.
if i do not see God in what a diviner is doing i will close my ears, as best i can, and not seek whatever council they can provide. perhaps this is wrong, who am i to tell whether God is at work behind something or not. but if i can't sense the Holy Spirit at work around me, that's enough for me.
Yup, me too. That's pretty much how it works for me. Studying this stuff academically is very different from meeting people who are connected to the supernatural in some way, and I pretty much just rely on those inner, intuitive feelings that I know are the Holy Spirit guiding me. Honestly, I can feel the difference between not of God and of evil as well. The former being something along the lines of feeling like someone's power being of themselves (I do believe we are all born with powers of will and intent, and some people harness these), and the latter being of evil (which I mean, of forces that are actively working against God). It's tough to explain, because I don't really buy the Satan vs. God thing, and I don't believe Satan is one literal entity, but more like a force that some humans and spirits align themselves with.
now... with all of that out there... i do not believe that someone must say they are doing something in God's name in order to be doing the will of God.
Agreed. Conversely, I don't think just because someone says they are doing something in God's name, they are telling the truth. I've felt otherwise on some occasions...
but i maintain that it is the Holy Spirit at work through them, not any sort of personal power they posess. And i believe Satan also has the ability to 'open people up' to these unnatural 'gifts'.
I believe we are all born with some supernatural power- the power of our own will/intent, which can interact with others' and the energetic forces of nature. I think some people are further gifted with certain abilities to interact in the spirit world on some level. I truly believe all power, and all creation, belongs only to God, so Satan can't
give us power, though our power can be
used for evil.
I believe the Holy Spirit is the immanent aspect of God that seeks to guide us toward good, toward God's plan, and toward our own salvation and spiritual development. Satan, for me, is symbolic of the force in us that is greedy and malicious, and seeks joy in hurting others and fighting against God- there are certainly a conglomeration of spirits and humans who align with this force, give themselves to it, and thus there is evil there. But I don't see it as a certain pseudo-deity fallen angel specifically, nor do I see demons as fallen angels. There was a thread on that a while back and I gave my reasons there. I do think if we give in to our own quest for personal power for our own use, whether supernaturally or naturally (as through politics or religion), we are opening ourselves up to falling ever farther away from God.
if i ever see a mystic of any kind about any thing, i promise not to pull out my Bible and yell "be gone satan", "the power of Christ compells you", or sprinkle holy water on them!
Heh-heh, I think many of us are mystics and just don't know it. I know I don't advertise, nor do I think of myself and anybody that someone
should come see for anything. I think people must see mystics as some sort of New Agey teacher or something, when really mysticism is all about one's personal journey.
Being a Christ-following mystic, if you pulled out your Bible I'd smile and be happy, if you yelled "be gone satan" I'd be slightly annoyed and slightly amused (and wonder, where is Satan? I don't sense anything!), if you yelled "the power of Christ compels you" I'd respond "yes, and...?" and though I personally don't take stock in objects as being inherently holy, holy water couldn't hurt anything! LOL
