Immaculate Conception and Descendance

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NewAgeNerd

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I was reading through a thread about Haile Selassie of Ethiopia, and there was talk of J.C.. Someone mentioned his immaculate conception. First off I am curious, is immaculate conception a universal Christian belief or one relegated solely to Catholics? In addition, what are the technicalities of this belief? How exactly does an Infinite Creator impregnate a mortal women? This may be a sensitive question, so if you'd rather not delve into it then that is fine.

Lastly, in Judaism we trace descendance through the male line. Whether or not someone is Jewish is determined by one's father, but what tribe one is from is traced from the father. In addition, customs and ancestry are traced via the father. If immaculately concieved, how do Christians trace J.C.'s ancestry to David?
 
NewAgeNerd said:
I was reading through a thread about Haile Selassie of Ethiopia, and there was talk of J.C.. Someone mentioned his immaculate conception. First off I am curious, is immaculate conception a universal Christian belief or one relegated solely to Catholics? In addition, what are the technicalities of this belief? How exactly does an Infinite Creator impregnate a mortal women? This may be a sensitive question, so if you'd rather not delve into it then that is fine.

Lastly, in Judaism we trace descendance through the male line. Whether or not someone is Jewish is determined by one's father, but what tribe one is from is traced from the father. In addition, customs and ancestry are traced via the father. If immaculately concieved, how do Christians trace J.C.'s ancestry to David?
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Because Jesus was made from the flesh of Mary who was from the loins of David. I think I am the only bible believer here for sure who does not believe that it was God who came from the womb, but rather that Jesus was a man with the spirit of a man after the seed of David.
Joseph came from the same line.
It is not sensitive for me, but it may be for some. I think some get spirit and flesh mixed up in understanding. there is a flesh seed and a spirit seed.

Most Christians still see Jesus as God from birth. (I think)

here are a few verses for you NewAge



"Thy seed. . . shall be My Son" - II Sam. 7:12,14

a "rod out of the stem of Jesse" - Isa. 11:1

"Jesus Christ, the son of David, son of Abraham" - Matt. 1:1

The genealogies of Joseph (Matthew) and Mary (Luke) from David

"fruit of his [David's] loins...sit on his throne"-Acts 2:30

"was made of the seed of David according to the flesh"-Rom.1:3

"I will give you the sure mercies of David" - Acts 13:34 "The root of David hath prevailed" - Rev. 5:5 "I am the root and the offspring of David" - Rev. 22.16
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Bandit said:
Because Jesus was made from the flesh of Mary who was from the loins of David. I think I am the only bible believer here for sure who does not believe that it was God who came from the womb, but rather that Jesus was a man with the spirit of a man after the seed of David.
Joseph came from the same line.
It is not sensitive for me, but it may be for some. I think some get spirit and flesh mixed up in understanding. there is a flesh seed and a spirit seed.

Most Christians still see Jesus as God from birth. (I think)

here are a few verses for you NewAge
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Bandit, it has been alluded to that Jesus being a cousin to John the Baptist (who was of Levite ancestry), makes people question Jesus' ancestry. They tend to ignore that Mary was also of the tribe of Juda, because as Newage stated, ancestry or lineage traditionally came down through the male side of the family...

How is that answered successfully? ;)

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
Bandit, it has been alluded to that Jesus being a cousin to John the Baptist (who was of Levite ancestry), makes people question Jesus' ancestry. They tend to ignore that Mary was also of the tribe of Juda, because as Newage stated, ancestry or lineage traditionally came down through the male side of the family...

How is that answered successfully? ;)

v/r

Q
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yes this is true. LOL
it looks good and successful to me Q;)

God had an outstanding, beyond comprehension, way of keeping that little tribe together (on both sides) :D ...clear up to the 'fulness of time'.
;)
 
NewAgeNerd said:
I was reading through a thread about Haile Selassie of Ethiopia, and there was talk of J.C.. Someone mentioned his immaculate conception. First off I am curious, is immaculate conception a universal Christian belief or one relegated solely to Catholics? In addition, what are the technicalities of this belief? How exactly does an Infinite Creator impregnate a mortal women? This may be a sensitive question, so if you'd rather not delve into it then that is fine.

Lastly, in Judaism we trace descendance through the male line. Whether or not someone is Jewish is determined by one's father, but what tribe one is from is traced from the father. In addition, customs and ancestry are traced via the father. If immaculately concieved, how do Christians trace J.C.'s ancestry to David?
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Well, if I may impinge here a bit. Mary also was of the tribe of Judah. So even though the male side can not be verified (for obvious reasons), genetically speaking, the blood of David ran in the veins of Jesus, through His mother. I know that isn't the answer you were looking for, but medically speaking it is a fact.

I guess my question would be: if so, why would God allow an illusion (deception) to go on concerning the true father of Jesus? All assumed that Jesus was the son of Joseph. Unless.....OT prophecy infact foretold all of this, and therefore no deception was indicated, except by those who knew the prophecy, and chose not to present it to the public (for whatever reasons). God never lied. But the people never received the thruth?...is that a possiblity...

Rhetorical question Newage. I'm thinking out loud. But you do make me think. :D

v/r

Q
 
This is an issue that would be hard to address if we where talking about a God with limits.
But we are not.

God created the reproductive organs of both man and woman why than would we doubt His ability to manipulate this one woman this one time. I would not say it was a sexual act.

As far as seed if (just imagine for a second) there was no seed of man involved how than would you trace the line ? All the regular rules would not apply.

If God can create man from dirt if He can make the sun stand still if He can part the waters of the sea to allow His people to pass if He can perform all these Huge things. Than making one seed from scratch would be a small thing.

This may sound to simple for some to believe.

I believe because it is this simple.:D

I have never been Catholic and I believe is not just a belief held by them.
 
Im just going to sum it up since everyone else basically said it in the course of the posts.

Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary and the Holy Spirit..

Mary was of the tribe of judah... Joseph was of the tribe of judah.. God in his infinite wisdom and being outside of time... knowing that Josephs lineage would matter because of how the children trace their lineage and Joseph was the adoptive earthly father of Jesus... so God covered the lineage for the Jews sake... The fact that Mary is also of the tribe of judah covered the physical lineage of Jesus.. either way both bases are covered...

Like Basstian said its a simple thing to God..
 
Faithfulservant said:
Im just going to sum it up since everyone else basically said it in the course of the posts.

Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary and the Holy Spirit..

Mary was of the tribe of judah... Joseph was of the tribe of judah.. God in his infinite wisdom and being outside of time... knowing that Josephs lineage would matter because of how the children trace their lineage and Joseph was the adoptive earthly father of Jesus... so God covered the lineage for the Jews sake... The fact that Mary is also of the tribe of judah covered the physical lineage of Jesus.. either way both bases are covered...

Like Basstian said its a simple thing to God..
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Artisians, it's got to be their water (or Olympia Beer)...and I have got to get back to Seattle...;)

It took me two posts and Basstian's for you to sum it up in a nut shell. How do you do that? :D


v/r

Q
 
Lastly, in Judaism we trace descendance through the male line. Whether or not someone is Jewish is determined by one's father, but what tribe one is from is traced from the father.
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While this is in part true I was reading and part of the land of canaan was given to surviving daughters to continue there fathers line and his inheritence.

This is very important because it shows there is not a chiseled in stone way of determining lineage but rather one that special circumstances could be taken into account.
 
Quahom1 said:
Artisians, it's got to be their water (or Olympia Beer)...and I have got to get back to Seattle...;)

It took me two posts and Basstian's for you to sum it up in a nut shell. How do you do that? :D


v/r

Q
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Im from Olympia :)

Its weird isnt it Q... Im usually the long winded one :p
 
I think the dissent between Christians is that Catholics state that Mary was a virgin before, during and AFTER Christ's birth, while other denominations state that she had more children...immaculate conception is not a solely Catholic belief....As to how it was done, well, that's what's miraculous (sp?), that it cannot be explained within human boundaries
 
"Immaculate conception" refers to the dogma that Mary herself was born without original sin. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm


In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."

"The Blessed Virgin Mary . . ." The subject of this immunity from original sin is the person of Mary at the moment of the creation of her soul and its infusion into her body. ". . .in the first instance of her conception . . ." The term conception does not mean the active or generative conception by her parents. Her body was formed in the womb of the mother, and the father had the usual share in its formation. The question does not concern the immaculateness of the generative activity of her parents. Neither does it concern the passive conception absolutely and simply (conceptio seminis carnis, inchoata), which, according to the order of nature, precedes the infusion of the rational soul. The person is truly conceived when the soul is created and infused into the body. Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin at the first moment of her animation, and sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul.
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The "Virgin Birth", on the other hand, is the doctrine that Mary was a virgin before, during and after the birth of Jesus: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15448a.htm

  • That the body of Jesus Christ was not sent down from Heaven, nor taken from earth as was that of Adam, but that its matter was supplied by Mary;
  • that Mary co-operated in the formation of Christ's body as every other mother co-operates in the formation of the body of her child, since otherwise Christ could not be said to be born of Mary just as Eve cannot be said to be born of Adam;
  • that the germ in whose development and growth into the Infant Jesus, Mary co-operated, was fecundated not by any human action, but by the Divine power attributed to the Holy Ghost;
  • that the supernatural influence of the Holy Ghost extended to the birth of Jesus Christ, not merely preserving Mary's integrity, but also causing Christ's birth or external generation to reflect his eternal birth from the Father in this, that "the Light from Light" proceeded from his mother's womb as a light shed on the world; that the "power of the Most High" passed through the barriers of nature without injuring them; that "the body of the Word" formed by the Holy Ghost penetrated another body after the manner of spirits.
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Abogado del Diablo said:
"Immaculate conception" refers to the dogma that Mary herself was born without original sin. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm



The "Virgin Birth", on the other hand, is the doctrine that Mary was a virgin before, during and after the birth of Jesus: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15448a.htm
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Correct, and believe it or not, many Catholics do not accept the immaculate conception of Mary. Not many cared much for Pope Pius either...;) Kind of like eating fish on Friday (what a sick joke the Vatican pulled off).

v/r

Q
 
NewAgeNerd said:
I was reading through a thread about Haile Selassie of Ethiopia, and there was talk of J.C.. Someone mentioned his immaculate conception. First off I am curious, is immaculate conception a universal Christian belief or one relegated solely to Catholics? In addition, what are the technicalities of this belief? How exactly does an Infinite Creator impregnate a mortal women? This may be a sensitive question, so if you'd rather not delve into it then that is fine.

Lastly, in Judaism we trace descendance through the male line. Whether or not someone is Jewish is determined by one's father, but what tribe one is from is traced from the father. In addition, customs and ancestry are traced via the father. If immaculately concieved, how do Christians trace J.C.'s ancestry to David?
Click to expand...


If you accept as Sarah did; that she being post menopausal could not have a child for Abraham; then you must accept that since you claim to have descended from the loins of Sarah and Abraham, that God made a dead womb come alive to bear Issac, Abraham's only son by his wife Sarah

If God is so capable of making you from Abraham; shouldn't He be just as capable of making Jesus from David?

And does it matter if He doesn't need any help, as in when He created Adam and Eve; Or that He uses human help; as in using Abraham's sperm to make Sarah conceive; Or that He doesn't use any human help but just for Mary to carry His Son to term?

David was from the tribe of Judah.
Joseph, Jesus' eathly adoptive father was also from the tribe of Judah.

Jacob was the father of Judah; Judah was the father of David; David was the father of Joseph; Joseph was the father of Jesus. OR

Jesus was the son of Joseph;the son of David; the son of Judah.

That Mary was or was not from the tribe of Judah is unimportant re the genealogy of Jesus. That Jesus Messiah had to born from the tribe of Judah is most important in identifying the TRUE MESSIAH!


precept
 
precept said:
If you accept as Sarah did; that she being post menopausal could not have a child for Abraham; then you must accept that since you claim to have descended from the loins of Sarah and Abraham, that God made a dead womb come alive to bear Issac, Abraham's only son by his wife Sarah

If God is so capable of making you from Abraham; shouldn't He be just as capable of making Jesus from David?

And does it matter if He doesn't need any help, as in when He created Adam and Eve; Or that He uses human help; as in using Abraham's sperm to make Sarah conceive; Or that He doesn't use any human help but just for Mary to carry His Son to term?

David was from the tribe of Judah.
Joseph, Jesus' eathly adoptive father was also from the tribe of Judah.

Jacob was the father of Judah; Judah was the father of David; David was the father of Joseph; Joseph was the father of Jesus. OR

Jesus was the son of Joseph;the son of David; the son of Judah.

That Mary was or was not from the tribe of Judah is unimportant re the genealogy of Jesus. That Jesus Messiah had to born from the tribe of Judah is most important in identifying the TRUE MESSIAH!


precept
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Just to clarify a small matter: Her genealogy is given in Luke 3. She was of the tribe of Judah and the lineage of David (Ps. 132:11; Luke 1:32). She was connected by marriage with Elisabeth, who was of the lineage of Aaron (Luke 1:36).


v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
Ignored the rest of the passages too? ;)

v/r

Q
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I don't think I'm ignoring anything. "Mary" doesn't appear anywhere in the whole chapter:

NIV said:
<H5>John the Baptist Prepares the Way
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NIV said:
1In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar–when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene– 2during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert. 3He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 4As is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet: “A voice of one calling in the desert, ‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him. 5Every valley shall be filled in,
every mountain and hill made low. The crooked roads shall become straight,
the rough ways smooth. 6And all mankind will see God's salvation.’ ”[a]


7John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 9The axe is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire."

10“What should we do then?” the crowd asked.

11John answered, “The man with two tunics should share with him who has none, and the one who has food should do the same.”

12Tax collectors also came to be baptized. “Teacher,” they asked, “what should we do?”

13“Don't collect any more than you are required to,” he told

them. 14Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?”

He replied, “Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely–be content with your pay.”

15The people were waiting expectantly and were all wondering in their hearts if John might possibly be the Christ.[b] 16John answered them all, “I baptize you with[c] water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 17His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” 18And with many other words John exhorted the people and preached the good news to them.

19But when John rebuked Herod the tetrarch because of Herodias, his brother's wife, and all the other evil things he had done, 20Herod added this to them all: He locked John up in prison. The Baptism and Genealogy of Jesus

21When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened 22and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”
23Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,
the son of Heli, 24the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi, the son of Melki,
the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,
25the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos,
the son of Nahum, the son of Esli,
the son of Naggai, 26the son of Maath,
the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein,
the son of Josech, the son of Joda,
27the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa,
the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel,
the son of Neri, 28the son of Melki,
the son of Addi, the son of Cosam,
the son of Elmadam, the son of Er,
29the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer,
the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi, 30the son of Simeon,
the son of Judah, the son of Joseph,
the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim,
31the son of Melea, the son of Menna,
the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan,
the son of David, 32the son of Jesse,
the son of Obed, the son of Boaz,
the son of Salmon,[d] the son of Nahshon,
33the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram,[e]
the son of Hezron, the son of Perez,
the son of Judah, 34the son of Jacob,
the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham,
the son of Terah, the son of Nahor,
35the son of Serug, the son of Reu,
the son of Peleg, the son of Eber,
the son of Shelah, 36the son of Cainan,
the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem,
the son of Noah, the son of Lamech,
37the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch,
the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel,
the son of Kenan, 38the son of Enosh,
the son of Seth, the son of Adam,
the son of God.
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Moreover, there is a geneology, but it starts with: "He[Jesus] was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melki . . . "

One would think that a geneology of "Mary" would at some point mention her name, and maybe designate her as the daughter of somebody.
 
Mary does not have to appear in the chapter. The lineage is automatically given to the (supposed father).

maybe you should just tell everyone what your agenda is on the Christian forum by starting with what YOU wish to prove about the Messiah & the virgin birth & the lineage of Jesus & so on & so on. if you are expecting the bible hop from believers, with someone who has already presented two very strong cases of antiChrist, you are not going to get real far in discussion, especially not with me.

since your beliefs are different, it does not matter what or how many scriptures or sources are presented showing who Mary is, you already appear to have have a different belief.
 
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