What is Truth?!

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Knowledge

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What is Truth!?

In a conversation with religion as the topic, the question "What is truth", is sure to come up. Think about it. At one time we've all asked this question. How are we to know what truth is when there are so many religions out there? Are all religions leading to the same place? Perhaps they all worship the same God while calling him different names? Herein this document, we will take a look at the only "religious" figure to ever make the claim that he himself was the incarnation of truth. My hope is that after reading this document, you will become aware of the uniqueness of Jesus the Christ, and find the answer to the elusive question, what is truth.

Unquestionably, the most influential man who ever lived is Jesus. Why has he alone been the number one influence for many, for almost 2000 years? Surely, there were many other great men. And, Jesus isn't the only "religious" figure to claim to be the Messiah, or the only guy to have a religion start because of his teachings. Indeed there has been many! However, there is something that does separate Jesus and Christianity from every other religion and religious figure. Jesus is the only man and "religious" figure to ever make the claim that he was the incarnation of truth.

Jesus said he is the truth, the life, and the only way to God. He [Jesus] explained that no man is good and that no amount of good deeds we do can reserve us a spot in Heaven. He taught that God is a good God, and also a Just God. By his [God] perfect nature, he must punish evil. Jesus brought to people the awareness of sin. He brought to our attention God's Law--The Ten Commandments. Jesus showed us that when judging ourselves by God's Law, the Commandments, we are all guilty and worthy of punishment. Again, Jesus claimed to be the only way to God. But, how?

Lets try to judge ourselves by God's Laws--The Ten Commandments. Have you ever lied? If I asked you, "what do you call a person that lies?" Please don't tell me "human." While amusing as your reply would be, the honest answer is, a liar. Same as if you ever stole, that would make you a thief. Jesus once said the following; and this is the one that got me. He said, anyone that looks at a woman in lust has committed adultery with her in his heart. One of God's Ten Laws is "you shall not commit adultery." So, we learn from Jesus that if we look with lust, we are committing adultery and therefore guilty of breaking one of God's Laws.

In the previous paragraph, I have gone over only three of God's Laws, more than enough for you to receive God's divine judgment. And God's judgment can be pretty swift. The punishment for breaking God's Laws is eternity in hell. Now question: How can anyone one of us avoid going to hell when none of us are good, perfect, or innocent of not committing any sin? It is true we all, at one time or another lied, stole, and committed adultery, whether in our minds or physically. How then can we go to Heaven? Lets take a look at some of the world's most popular religions to see if we can decipher any truth.

Buddhism--This Religion was started by an Indian prince named Siddartha Gautama. As the story goes, he lived a life of wealth and luxury, and was shielded away from any kind of pain. One day, as the young prince venturing through the city, he saw some old men. The prince had never saw any old people before. He also saw the bodies of dead people. This too was a new thing for the young prince. This was said to be his awaking, as he learned of pain and suffering. After this, young prince Siddartha ran away from home, and dedicated his life to find enlightenment. For many years Siddartha lived with some tribes men who too dedicated their lives to find enlightenment. The taught him that one must find enlightenment through pain and affliction, and, for a while prince Siddartha followed their teachings. One day, after many days of starvation, Siddartha could no longer take it. He eat food and even bathed himself in a near by river.

When the tribe's men saw Siddartha eating and bathing, they became sorrowed and disgusted. They abandoned him and set out to find enlightenment without him. This was the day Siddartha found what is commonly called 'the middle way". From that day on, Siddartha went out to teach that life is a never-ending circle of pain and sorrow. He taught that life is meaningless and full of pain. Only when we find enlightenment we end the circle of the endless process of being born, living, and death. After achieving "enlightenment", Siddartha name was changed to Buddha. The Buddhist teachings are, to live life doing "good deeds"and to achieve enlightenment to find peace.

Islam-- Islam is a religion founded by a man named Mohammad. Mohammad was said to been visited by the archangel Gabriel and been given the words of God, which after his death was composed into a book which is called the Qura'n. During Mohammad's life, he went around declaring Islam and denouncing Judaism and Christianity. He taught that Allah; which previously had been the "moon god" of Arabian tribe's men, is the only true God.

Through many wars or "jihads" he won most of the Middle East to Islam. In Islamic teachings, its followers are taught that there are two basic ways to go meet Allah in paradise. One sure way is to die for Allah in Jihad. And, the other way is through "good deeds".That is to say, live your life doing good things, and following God's Laws, (Ten Commandments) given by the prophet Moses. In Islam, if you do this, you will join Allah in paradise. Centuries after the death of its founder Muhammad, Islam is the second most practiced religion, and rapidly becoming the first.

Judaism-- The religion practiced by most of the world's Jewish population. This religion centers on God's Laws--The Ten Commandments, which was given to from God to Moses and the Jewish people. Judaism teaches that if you follow the Ten Commandments and live a good life, i.e., doing"good deeds",you will make it to heaven with God and the old prophets. Judaism also teaches that if you sin or break one of the Ten Commandments. You can receive remitting for your sins by offering a sacrifice to God. Most of the world's populations of Jews are sill awaiting the arrival of the Messiah.

Christianity--We now arrive to where we had begun, with the finding of truth. The practice of Christianity started with a man named Jesus. He taught that no man is good and that no matter how much good we do, the good will never negate any of the bad we've done in our life time. Think about it like this:If you robbed a bank for a million dollars, then you took most of the money to give it to needed children, what do you think will happen if the police catches you? If you have a working brain, you will know that even though you did a good and noble thing by giving the money to needy children. The fact remains that you still broke the law and stole from a bank.You see, the law has already been set.

This is the same way with God, Jesus taught. By God's law we are all guilty! No amount of good we do, whether if we giving money to the poor or whatever we do. Nothing we do can get us into heaven. We've all sinned and fallen short of God's laws. Also through Christianity and the Bible, we learn that even if you don't know the Laws of God, which is the Ten Commandments. We still, intensively follow it. This is because God has written his laws on our hearts.

Our conscience bears witness of the truth. When have you lied and not know you was doing something wrong? Or, when have you stole and not know deep down that what you was doing is not what you want to happen to you? The truth is, we all know when we do something wrong. Even if we do not know what exactly a sin is, we still know when we do something wrong. Again, our conscience is proof of this.

Jesus taught that he was the fulfillment of God's Law. He said, you can't pick and choose what laws of God you want to follow. You either follow all or follow none. And since no one can follow all of God's law all the time. He said that he is the way to God. Jesus was God's sacrifice that died in order to pardon anyone who believes in him from God's punishment, which is eternity in hell. The fact is folks, that we all have been born under a death sentence. We all are born into sin, and throughout our lifetime we will sin. God sent his only son Jesus to die on a cross. And on the cross, he [Jesus] took upon himself all of the world's sin. He felt the full fury of God's wrath and anger.

In doing this, God showed his love for mankind. There is no other way to save mankind. So, God who so loved the world, sent his only son to die so that who ever believed in the sacrifice of Jesus can have eternal life. For the people that do not believe, they are already condemned for they were born in sin and continue to sin throughout their life time. The world needed a savior, someone to step into God's court room and say, "I paid the price for this guy".This is what Jesus did! He paid the price of sin for all those who would believe. This is why Jesus was so confident in saying "I am the truth, the life, and the only way to God."

He alone has done what no other religious figure can do. Through his sacrifice on the cross he has paid the price for sin once and for all. After three days of his death, Jesus was rose from the dead by the power of God. The Son of God, isn't some dead guy, he is ALIVE today. You can find him by admitting your sins to him and asking him to come into your life and be the savior of you life. Repent of your sins and ask God to come into your life today and he will. Then and only then, you will know truth. Till that day, what you think you know as truth, is only lies masked as truth.

Religon is Man's attempt to reach God. But, through a man called Jesus, God reached down to man. Drop religion and pick up the Saviour of the world. You need Jesus!


--Conscience
 
Perhaps the answer has eluded you as your methods of analysis
are quite unbiased,

reask the same question and be honest with yourself about what answer you come up with, after all, everybody is watching.

the truth by definition will require facts to support this and then facts need proof to be facts, you cant prove what you are claiming to be facts, the are purely beliefs, and not the truth.
Try it again and see how you go,
I shall disprove your alledged facts by deduction and show you do not posess the truth as you dont understand how to identify it.

Yours,
God
 
This thread was originally posted in "Belief and Spirituality", was temporarily removed, and then I thought to move it here.

I'm not keen on the attempt to soapbox against other religions, but there were some ideas in the post I thought worth focussing in the Christianity board.

For example, the idea that everyone is a worthless sinner - that sin is inherited - and that becoming Christian is a way to free yourself from sin is obviously at the heart of the "works vs faith" discussion - does simply accepting Jesus make someone sinless?

And if someone accepts Jesus but sins (and asks forgiveness) then isn't this worst - a form of "mafia faith", where people can criticise others for committing sin, but if a Christian sins then it's not so much of an issue? Or is that entirely a mis-perception?

Also, the idea of "the Law":

The punishment for breaking God's Laws is eternity in hell.
I seem to recall this as precisely what the Pharisees charged Jesus with in the Gospels. By healing on a Sunday, Jesus didn't keep the Sabbath - one of the 10 Commandments. Therefore by your own perception on the law, do you do equally condemn Jesus? Or is "Truth" allowed to break it's own "Law"?

Discussion pointers for the thread. :)
 
I said:
This thread was originally posted in "Belief and Spirituality", was temporarily removed, and then I thought to move it here.

I'm not keen on the attempt to soapbox against other religions, but there were some ideas in the post I thought worth focussing in the Christianity board.

For example, the idea that everyone is a worthless sinner - that sin is inherited - and that becoming Christian is a way to free yourself from sin is obviously at the heart of the "works vs faith" discussion - does simply accepting Jesus make someone sinless?

And if someone accepts Jesus but sins (and asks forgiveness) then isn't this worst - a form of "mafia faith", where people can criticise others for committing sin, but if a Christian sins then it's not so much of an issue? Or is that entirely a mis-perception?

Also, the idea of "the Law":


I seem to recall this as precisely what the Pharisees charged Jesus with in the Gospels. By healing on a Sunday, Jesus didn't keep the Sabbath - one of the 10 Commandments. Therefore by your own perception on the law, do you do equally condemn Jesus? Or is "Truth" allowed to break it's own "Law"?

Discussion pointers for the thread. :)
everyone is a sinner saved by grace & through the blood of Jesus. i dont believe it is just an idea.
i dont see any difference on WHO sins. everyone has.
i do think there is a problem when someone never feels any conviction as to what is right & wrong, as in anything goes.

faith & works go together. real faith will show real works.
i dont see helping someone on the sabbath as breaking the sabbath or sin.

i suppose everyone can have there own truth & believe what they want as truth...& even leave Jesus & the bible completely out of the picture, but i am not going to do that.

i dont really care too much what people believe because people believe whatever they want. We can always pretend there are no lies, but there are indeed many lies.
When it comes to the bible & Jesus I will never deny either one & I will make a stand for both when infringed upon or asked/forced to deny.
To the point of death & imprisonment.

I do not believe using force is truth. God does not force himself on anyone.
 
Bandit, you say that God does not force Himself on anyone and I agree fully with that. God doesn't force himself on us. But I propose that your interpretation of God and how he works and deals with people is forceful. If one has the choice of accepting Jesus or going to hell, isn't this somewhat forceful or manipulative. If you truly believe that God doesn't force himself on people there would be no ultimatum, He would allow an open path to him with no strings attached. Your interpretation of God and his authority is that of an ultimatum, believe this or go to hell.

This is like the parent who says to the child, "daddy loves you no matter what, now you have a choice, you can choose to go to college or you can choose to travel the world, it's your choice, just to let you know that if you don't go to college you can never come home again as long as you live and you'll live in eternal suffering because I won't want anything to do with you."
Does this seem overly exaggerated? It really isn't, this is what you say when you speak of God the way you do.

I know you will disagree with this so I'm ready. I hope you at least let this sink into your conscious at least a little bit before you fire back.
 
I said:
This thread was originally posted in "Belief and Spirituality", was temporarily removed, and then I thought to move it here.
Thanks for that. I saw the post over there and wouldn't have responded there, because it seemed an inappropriate place to post it. It was too much like evangelizing.

For example, the idea that everyone is a worthless sinner - that sin is inherited - and that becoming Christian is a way to free yourself from sin is obviously at the heart of the "works vs faith" discussion - does simply accepting Jesus make someone sinless?
I freely admit that I'm not a mainstream Christian, and many Christians would consider me "outside the fold" as it were, but I do claim Jesus as Lord and Savior and I do read my Bible, though my interpretations are sometimes different than most. I do not believe everyone is a worthless sinner or that sin is inherited. I believe in the Jewish concept that humanity is both good and evil, and that we have the free will to choose good over evil. I also believe that everyone sins, according to sin being "missing the mark," but I don't think God sends everyone to hell for all of eternity for missing the mark. I believe that God is more like the Jewish concept (what I know of it anyway)- a loving and forgiving but also just God, who expects us to try to grow spiritually and to give a good faith effort to make good choices and be ethical people. I think if we (1) spend time developing our spirituality and (2) try to live a good life, then God lets us into the Divine presence. NOT because of our works. Not even because of the strength of our faith (which also fails at times- all have doubts at some point). But rather because of God's infinite grace and mercy, which we have prepared ourselves to receive.

That said, I don't think everyone makes it to the Divine presence right away. That's an area I sharply deviate from Christianity, so I won't go into it here, though there are liberal Christians like Quakers that also disagree with the general idea of one life and then eternal hell/heaven.

Personally, I don't think the point of Jesus was to make us sinless through his death, but I recognize that is the general consensus of Christians. I think the point of Jesus was his life, of which his death was only part. His teachings and compassion, the Good News that the Kingdom of God is near, his gift of self-sacrifice. I don't think anything really makes me "sinless," if sin is missing the mark, but rather that, as Jesus says... I can be forgiven by God, if I forgive others (Mt 6:14).

And if someone accepts Jesus but sins (and asks forgiveness) then isn't this worst - a form of "mafia faith", where people can criticise others for committing sin, but if a Christian sins then it's not so much of an issue? Or is that entirely a mis-perception?
You can see how that's kind of a non-issue for me, since I don't think that by accepting Jesus I get a "enter-into-heaven-free" card. My big thing is that Jesus said on numerous occasions that we should not judge one another. That is clearly God's job. Of course, as a society you have to take care of sins that hurt other people or infringe on their rights to keep the society going, but I'm very much against judging people that aren't harming other people. To me, their mistakes and transgressions are between themselves and God and it's none of my business. Nobody's perfect, and I have my own life and actions to worry about.

Also, the idea of "the Law":
No doubt I'm in the minority of Christians when I say that I don't believe in eternal hell. This is not just because of fluffy happy mystic stuff either, but serious prayer and contemplation, study of the Bible, and also trying to understand what the Jewish concept of Gehenna was. I don't think heaven and hell are literal places, and I do think some people get another "shot at it" so to speak.

Therefore by your own perception on the law, do you do equally condemn Jesus? Or is "Truth" allowed to break it's own "Law"?
I always interpreted those passages to mean that it is keeping the spirit of the law that matters. For me, ethics are not about strict moral codes that are a bunch of binding rules. Ethics is about cultivating a spiritual path of harmony, you could say a Path of Best Action. A little like the concept of the Tao, really. It is seeking God's will in all action, including things that are not mentioned in the Bible. I've been told by some of my family who are Christian that we shouldn't worry about the destruction of rain forests, global warming, or endangered species because they're not mentioned in the Bible. But I say morality is not just about a list of rules written down somewhere. It's about looking at the problems around you and praying for God to help you find the Path of Best Action, the Path of Most Harmony- not just for yourself, but for everyone on earth. So to me, if Jesus came upon someone who needed to be healed, it wasn't about the rule (about sabbath) it was about listening to God's will at that moment and finding out what action would be best.
 
didymus said:
Bandit, you say that God does not force Himself on anyone and I agree fully with that. God doesn't force himself on us. But I propose that your interpretation of God and how he works and deals with people is forceful. If one has the choice of accepting Jesus or going to hell, isn't this somewhat forceful or manipulative. If you truly believe that God doesn't force himself on people there would be no ultimatum, He would allow an open path to him with no strings attached. Your interpretation of God and his authority is that of an ultimatum, believe this or go to hell.

This is like the parent who says to the child, "daddy loves you no matter what, now you have a choice, you can choose to go to college or you can choose to travel the world, it's your choice, just to let you know that if you don't go to college you can never come home again as long as you live and you'll live in eternal suffering because I won't want anything to do with you."
Does this seem overly exaggerated? It really isn't, this is what you say when you speak of God the way you do.

I know you will disagree with this so I'm ready. I hope you at least let this sink into your conscious at least a little bit before you fire back.
there are ultimatums & the scriptuure is very clear all the way through from Adam to the end. but he does not force His ways, but there may be penalties. anyone can reject him & his law & his ways.
as if God does not have the right to be bias?.
God will have His way & if we dont like it, He will have the hills & rocks cry out to praise Him.
everyone chooses what they want.
When a father loves there kid he will teach him & chastise him & make a way.
it is when the child chooses not to love there father & throws Him away.
 
anyway, i think this thread is a little odd to JUST be in Chtristianity so i dont really have any more to say about it. it is almost like anyone can say whatever they want...so be it.

I see a lot of undefined 'TRUTH' in the world. & I see a lot of lies.

reject, deny, accept whatever...i dont need to spend time trying to debate, what millions of people percieve as truth.
everyone can answer there own question for What is Truth.

i have already stated what it is for me.

:)
 
path-of-one, just wanted to say that I enjoy your posts and find myself nodding in agreement with a lot of what you say. :)

I, Brian, for what it's worth, I think this is an appropriate thread for the Christiantiy forum.

didymus, also for what it's worth, I think I hear where you are coming from. I don't think we need to split Bible verse hairs to believe in salvation for all, I think it's already right there in Scripture. One way or another God will call each and every one of us back, in His Compassion.

Isaiah 56

Salvation for Others

1 This is what the LORD says:

"Maintain justice
and do what is right,
for my salvation is close at hand
and my righteousness will soon be revealed.

2 Blessed is the man who does this,
the man who holds it fast,
who keeps the Sabbath without desecrating it,
and keeps his hand from doing any evil."

3 Let no foreigner who has bound himself to the LORD say,
"The LORD will surely exclude me from his people."
And let not any eunuch complain,
"I am only a dry tree."

4 For this is what the LORD says:
"To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
who choose what pleases me
and hold fast to my covenant-
5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls
a memorial and a name
better than sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
that will not be cut off.

6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD
to serve him,
to love the name of the LORD ,
and to worship him,
all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it
and who hold fast to my covenant-

7 these I will bring to my holy mountain
and give them joy in my house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house will be called
a house of prayer for all nations."

8 The Sovereign LORD declares-
he who gathers the exiles of Israel:
"I will gather still others to them
besides those already gathered."

Hey Bandit, peace in the LORD.
:)

lunamoth
 
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The truth is in every nation, every race, every religion, every group. Truth is a whole entity. Humankind breaks it up in order to digest what we can. There is truth in every religion. Jesus is Truth. But Jesus was not the only one annointed with Truth - Jesus brought a greater expanse of humankind into a deeper understanding of Truth.

There is only one path to God. Christians are walking with Jesus to be assured that we don't stray onto the side line and get caught up 'eating lunch' too long. Other groups are walking with their leaders along the path. We all pull over onto the side line from time to time. We just don't want to get caught there for too long.
 
lunamoth said:
Hey Bandit, peace in the LORD.
:)

lunamoth
and...peace in the Lord to you too Lunamoth:) nice.

..and everyone have a GRRRRREAT wonderful summer. THAT IS THE TRUTH.
 
Bandit said:
there are ultimatums & the scriptuure is very clear all the way through from Adam to the end. but he does not force His ways, but there may be penalties. anyone can reject him & his law & his ways.
as if God does not have the right to be bias?.
God will have His way & if we dont like it, He will have the hills & rocks cry out to praise Him.
everyone chooses what they want.
When a father loves there kid he will teach him & chastise him & make a way.
it is when the child chooses not to love there father & throws Him away.
This isn't about loving the Father or not. There are millions of people out there who love God and would do anything for Him but do not believe that Jesus was Him. So you are saying that God would send them all to hell for not believing something. This is different than not loving. This mentality to me is so human. I don't think that God operates in these terms.

Jesus was teaching people a more direct path to God. He was one of us. As Jesus himself said in Matthew; "Ask and it will be given to you;seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
Which of you, if his son asks for bread will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish will give him a snake?

There are no conditions here. Jesus said ask, seek and knock. God will honor all who seek Him out. No ultimatums here, no ifs ands or buts.
 
For: I Brain

I'm not keen on the attempt to soapbox against other religions, but there were some ideas in the post I thought worth focussing in the Christianity board. For example, the idea that everyone is a worthless sinner - that sin is inherited - and that becoming Christian is a way to free yourself from sin is obviously at the heart of the "works vs faith" discussion - does simply accepting Jesus make someone sinless?

First things first. Coming to Christanity doesnt fix or change anyone. Rather, coming to the Christ does! Again, religion; including religous Christanity, is only man's best attempt to reach up to God, but God, through a man (Jesus), reached down to us. God sent us his Son, and if we accept the Son, we will have the Holy Spirit, that will impart truth to us. One thing that comes along with the Holy Spirt, is the ablitity to understand God's words in the Bible. As the Bible says - "The unsaved man cannot understand the things of the scripture, and because of it, it is foolishness to him." To understand the Bible, first accept God's provision made for you. Only then will you understand the manual he left for you, and only then will you know truth. One other thing, coming to Jesus doesnt suddenly make a person good, it makes a person forgiven! Remember this: There is NONE good, but God!

And if someone accepts Jesus but sins (and asks forgiveness) then isn't this worst - a form of "mafia faith", where people can criticise others for committing sin, but if a Christian sins then it's not so much of an issue? Or is that entirely a mis-perception?

Before I can answer, its important to understand 2 things:

1. Not everyone that profess to be Christians, really are Christians.

2. True Chrisitans dont judge, we just tell the truth. The truth is that the unsaved are enemies of God, and that he loves them, and wants so much to save them from his righteous judgement that will surely come. When a true Christian tries to witness to you by showing you that you, like him/her, is a sinner, dont be prideful or angry. Instead, recordinze the truth -- You've broken God's laws -- you're not Good. And, you NEED a savior. Look at yourself in light of God's Law, and listen to your conscience, it will given credit to what Im saying.

That said, when a Christian sins (and unfortunatly, they will because we live in a fallen body, in a fallen world), we can confess our sins, and God is just to forgive us.


Also, the idea of "the Law":

The punishment for breaking God's Laws is eternity in hell.

I seem to recall this as precisely what the Pharisees charged Jesus with in the Gospels. By healing on a Sunday, Jesus didn't keep the Sabbath - one of the 10 Commandments. Therefore by your own perception on the law, do you do equally condemn Jesus? Or is "Truth" allowed to break it's own "Law"?


Huh?! Correct me if Im wrong guy, but where in the Bible does "God" say that you cant heal on the sabbath?

Later,

Knowledge
 
Knowledge said:
As the Bible says - "The unsaved man cannot understand the things of the scripture, and because of it, it is foolishness to him." To understand the Bible, first accept God's provision made for you. Only then will you understand the manual he left for you, and only then will you know truth.


But who is to say who is saved and who is not? Many self-professed Christians who disagree with other self-professed Christians accuse one another of not "really" being Christians, or being heretical, or being "weak," or "struggling." Just because I disagree with you, for example, does not mean that you *know* that I am unsaved and you are saved. Nor can I *know* you are unsaved. There are many interpretations of the Bible by many who claim to be saved and to know our Lord Jesus as Savior. I am merely a human being. How can I know their heart? The only thing I can know is that Jesus said that we can judge a fruit by its tree and that a good tree bears good fruit (works) whereas a bad tree bears bad fruit. So I can only judge what may be a truthful interpretation of scripture based on what actions result from it- are the actions in accordance with the teachings of Christ? Well, Christ taught non-judgment, love, peace, compassion, healing, taking care of the poor... So if these actions are not evident in someone, then I can assume they are not working from a place of truth. And if they are evident in someone, then I assume they are working from a place of truth. Interestingly, many people bear good fruit that do not agree with me. Yet, though I am not perfect, I also bear good fruit. So I conclude that each of us only has a piece of the truth. I believe we are to learn from one another's insights into the Divine, rather than claim we are the only saved ones and our truth is the whole Truth.

True Chrisitans dont judge, we just tell the truth. The truth is that the unsaved are enemies of God


That sounds rather judgmental to me. Who are the "unsaved" and how do we know their hearts? This statement also is teleological- we know the truth, so we can tell you all about it, but it's not judgment because we have special knowledge you don't have. Think about the statement outside its context for a second- how would you feel if a Buddhist said "True Buddhists don't judge, we just tell the truth. The truth is you all are not getting it and will reincarnate again and suffer some more because you're missing the point of life." Would you be offended? Wouldn't that seem like they were judging you from a foundation you didn't agree with? Only God can know the heart of a human, and how close s/he is to God, and if s/he is truly "saved."

Also, how do we know God perceives of them as enemies? Rather, I think He perceives all His children- indeed, all His creation- as precious. Are there nasty people in the world? Yes. But the bulk of the people who are "unsaved" love God and are good people, though they follow a different spiritual path. I agree with the view that all who seek God are on the same path, but we just don't think we are because of our limited understanding. "Ask and ye shall find, knock and the door will be opened to you..." There's a lot of folks in the world and throughout time that have asked... and I do believe in the words of Christ, that they found God. I do not think Jesus is the only time God reached out to us. He reaches out to us every day, and the Bible promises that the Word of God was written on people's hearts and also on all of creation, so that all peoples everywhere could come to know God.

You've broken God's laws -- you're not Good. And, you NEED a savior. Look at yourself in light of God's Law

1. "God's laws" as put forth in the Bible were for the Jewish people. I am not a Jew, and thus was never bound to the Law. Presumably, as a Gentile I am bound to ethical action and am judged on that basis.
2. Just because someone isn't perfect doesn't mean they are not good. God created at least some good in us, because we have the capacity and desire to turn toward God and act morally. If we were completely evil, we wouldn't even have the ability to realize we were acting immorally. Good people are just that... consistently good. Not perfect, just trying to be.
3. Whether or not we NEED a savior depends on whether you are coming from a Christian theology, and even some Christians don't think the point of the Christ was just his death on the cross, but rather the point was his teachings. Jesus himself said numerous times ways to enter the Kingdom of Heaven/God, and most of these ways were tied to action. I'm happy to provide the oodles of Biblical scriptures if need be. But read the Gospels carefully and you'll see that Jesus frequently discussed Kingdom of Heaven in relation to action (or check out the Kingdom of Heaven thread on this forum- really interesting stuff).
4. Jesus also talks about having the faith of a child. Children don't think inherently that they're bad, that the Father God won't let them into heaven, that they needed blood to atone for their mistakes (after all, sin is "missing the mark."). Children just know that God is there for them, that He loves them, and that one day they will get to be with Him. I believe we complicate a lot of things that are really very simple. It's not that the Father can't/won't let us into heaven because we are imperfect. It's that we don't believe we can go to heaven just through God's grace and mercy- no professions of faith, no specific works, no church affiliations. Just that the Father God loves us and is gracious and merciful.

Correct me if Im wrong guy, but where in the Bible does "God" say that you cant heal on the sabbath?

According to the law, you are not allowed to work on the Sabbath. Healing is work, even miraculous healing. There are also other examples where the disciples and Jesus picked grain on the Sabbath. Also not allowed by the law.
 
Whether it was against the Law to work on the Sabbath isn't the point of the story. Really. The story is not demonstrating that the character Jesus understood the letter and stroke of the Law better than the Jewish scholars.

The point of the story is that the Law should not come before love and compassion. It was an act of healing on the Sabbath that otherwise would have gone undone because of the Law. It's a metaphorical representation of Paul's idea in Romans 2-3 that the Law is completely fulfilled in love.
 
Yep, that was my interpretation of the story too. That it's not about strict moral codes. It's about ethical action- finding God's will and acting in love and compassion toward people.
 
path_of_one said:
Yep, that was my interpretation of the story too. That it's not about strict moral codes. It's about ethical action- finding God's will and acting in love and compassion toward people.
It continues to surprise me that people get caught up debating whether what Jesus does in that story was technically a violation of the Law or not. The story not only assumes that it was against the Law, but it's necessary that it was for the story to make its point.

Otherwise, the point of the story would be that Jesus understood the intracacies of the Law better than the Pharisees and knew he could get away with something they mistakenly thought was wrong.

But that wouldn't be much of a story.
 
For: Path of One

But who is to say who is saved and who is not?

The Bible says that we are to dercern and examine to see if we're in the faith. There are certian fruits that will be produced if someone is truely saved. If one says he is saved, and doesnt produce good fruit, he is a liar. This by the way, isnt my words, but the Bible's.

There are many interpretations of the Bible by many who claim to be saved and to know our Lord Jesus as Savior. I am merely a human being. How can I know their heart?

Honestly, there is ONLY ONE interpretation of the Bible -- God's interpreatation. If we let the scriptures interprete itself, we will be OK. That said, there are certain doctrins ro teachings that we Christians can agree to disagree on, e.g., the rapture, its timing, prophecy, etc. But, the core fundations, we cannot disagree on - the Person of Jesus, Salvation through grace, the Trinity, etc. Lastly, while we cannot know whats in another person's heart, we can know them by their fruits they produce. Jesus said no good tree will produce bad fruits. Likewise, no good Christian, will produce bad fruit.

Well, Christ taught non-judgment, love, peace, compassion, healing, taking care of the poor... So if these actions are not evident in someone, then I can assume they are not working from a place of truth.

Think about this for a sec. If Jesus only taught about peace, compassion and love, they would have not killed him. They Religous Jews tried TEN TIMES to kill Jesus before he got to the cross. Why? Because, while he was the most tolerant man ever, he remained intolerant towards religion and other ways. Jesus knowing that he IS THE ONLY way to God, said it because he desiers to save men. He didnt lie when he made that claim. That said, the characteristics you mentioned are great, and we all should work towards getting them, but they are not the fruits the Bible talks about. Read the Book of Glations for the fruits.

That sounds rather judgmental to me. Who are the "unsaved" and how do we know their hearts?

The unsaved are those that are not born agian. We're all born sinners because of the sin DNA in us. This is why we MUST be born agian! About how we will no. Well, I answered that above. You will know the Children of God by their fruits! Please recornize that while they're are many sincere people in the world that do good things. The fact is, unless they repent and put their trust in Jesus (Born again), they remain unsaved, and thus end up being sincerly wrong!

This statement also is teleological- we know the truth, so we can tell you all about it, but it's not judgment because we have special knowledge you don't have. Think about the statement outside its context for a second- how would you feel if a Buddhist said "True Buddhists don't judge, we just tell the truth. The truth is you all are not getting it and will reincarnate again and suffer some more because you're missing the point of life." Would you be offended?

First of all, I never said Christians have a special knowledge, I said we recornize that we're sinners in need of a Savior. Why? Because we understand that if we rob a bank or sell drugs, a life of good deeds wont negate the crime that has already been done. When confronted in a court of law, we will still have to pay for those crimes. This is the same way with God. Because we've broken his Laws (Ten Commandments), we're guilty and worthy of his just punishment. We Christians dont try to save ourselves by good deeds, but instead, we repent, and put our trust in Jesus, the one that paid our fine. Knowing and excepting this truth, has made us redeemed children of God, who now have a relationship with God, and not a religion. Now, all that said, I do see you're point, so here's what I propose. Take Jesus on his word. Repent (STOP sinning), ask him into your life, and read the Bible. God will do the proving!

Also, how do we know God perceives of them as enemies?

God's words tell me so.

Rather, I think He perceives all His children- indeed, all His creation- as precious.

Its good that you admit that you "think" rather than saying you "know." Truely, we are all Children of God, but those that never come to Jesus never get redeemed. This is why Jesus came to die -- to Redeem us back from sin that seperated us from God.

But the bulk of the people who are "unsaved" love God and are good people, though they follow a different spiritual path.

I agree most people love God. Thats obvious. Yet still, most people dont know what God has done for them to come into a real realtionship with him. Instead, people seek to find their own way, leaning on their own understanding, and dont trust on God. The Bible says that God has written his Laws on our hearts. Why? It was for us to understand that we are not good by his standards, and that we NEED a Savior. The Bible also says that God gave us a conscience to convict us on this truth. If you lie or steal, no one has to tell you that you did something wrong, you just KNOW! Again, this is because God's laws are on your heart, trying to wake you up to God's truth. Have you ever wonder why your conscience ONLY convicts you of moral issues, and why it is not bais, even to you?

I agree with the view that all who seek God are on the same path, but we just don't think we are because of our limited understanding. "

Religion gives man a false sense of how good he is when in true he is far from the word! No good deed can take away the fact that you've sined and broken God's laws. ALL religion tell you to do good deeds, but Jesus says come to him that you may be forgiven. Why? Because, when you step into God's court room, Jesus, your advocate can say, "I already paid his fine, he is FREE!" No other religion or religious figure offers such hope. Try Jesus!

1. "God's laws" as put forth in the Bible were for the Jewish people.

Actually, God's Laws were first given to the Jew; for his own reason, but are ment for the whole world!

2. Just because someone isn't perfect doesn't mean they are not good. God created at least some good in us, because we have the capacity and desire to turn toward God and act morally.

Are you a good person? Have you ever lied, lusted, stole something, called God's name in vain, wanted what someone else wanted? That's only five out of ten laws. Please note: You dont have to break all the links in a chain to brake the chain. Destroy one, and the chain is broken. That said, it should be said that God created us to be Good. The first humans we're perfect. But, when they disobeyed God, the curse of sin effected the world, and everything in it, including them. Also, it doesnt matter if we desier to do good or seek after good things. Why? Because, our righteousness, the Bible says, are that of filty rags. Why? Because we're cursed with sin. Come to Jesus that you may know true righteousness!

3. Whether or not we NEED a savior depends on whether you are coming from a Christian theology, and even some Christians don't think the point of the Christ was just his death on the cross, but rather the point was his teachings.

The truth that ALL need a Savior is written on your heart. Look at yourself in the mirrior of God's Devine Law -- The Ten Commendments. Jugde yourself with the Law, and listen to your conscience.

Jesus himself said numerous times ways to enter the Kingdom of Heaven/God, and most of these ways were tied to action. I'm happy to provide the oodles of Biblical scriptures if need be.


Please do. It will be interesting to read. That said, I want to remind you that Jesus said time and again that Salavation is ONLY through him. This is the underlining mesesage of the WHOLE Bible, incidentially.

But read the Gospels carefully and you'll see that Jesus frequently discussed Kingdom of Heaven in relation to action (or check out the Kingdom of Heaven thread on this forum- really interesting stuff).

Really? Please shear scripture! Before you do though, here's one that just poped into my head. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." What do you think of that?

4. Jesus also talks about having the faith of a child. Children don't think inherently that they're bad, that the Father God won't let them into heaven, that they needed blood to atone for their mistakes (after all, sin is "missing the mark."). Children just know that God is there for them, that He loves them, and that one day they will get to be with Him.

You're right! Children dont think that they are bad. But, like you said, they trust in their parants love for them. This is what Jesus was talking about. Have the trust of your Heavenly father who says that you need to run away from religion that offers vain hope, and run to the Savior who offers eternal life.

According to the law, you are not allowed to work on the Sabbath. Healing is work, even miraculous healing. There are also other examples where the disciples and Jesus picked grain on the Sabbath. Also not allowed by the law.

Jesus sais: "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." Apparently Jesus saw passed the hypocrites who faked their walk with God by pointing out he was "breaking the law," when infact, he was obeying the 2 most important laws:

1. Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and body.

2. Love mankind as you love yourself.

Later,

Knowledge
 
If one says he is saved, and doesnt produce good fruit, he is a liar. This by the way, isnt my words, but the Bible's.

This is actually exactly what I said, see below.

God's interpreatation. If we let the scriptures interprete itself, we will be OK.

And I suppose that you somehow have God's commentary on how the Bible is to be interpreted? Sorry, but I don't think any of us humans on earth has God's interpretation. All we have is the Word, and it is up to us to interpret it. Scriptures do not interpret themselves. If they did, people wouldn't need pastors, biblical scholars, translators, Bible dictionaries, or Bible studies. We can call upon the Holy Spirit to help us understand them, however.

Think about this for a sec. If Jesus only taught about peace, compassion and love, they would have not killed him.

Where in scripture did Jesus preach intolerance of others? The most he ever said was that he was sent for the Jewish people, and that his disciples were not to enter Gentile towns. They didn't kill him because he was intolerant. They killed him because he was gaining a large following and the elite (both Jewish and Roman) were worried that he would cause social and political problems.

That said, the characteristics you mentioned are great, and we all should work towards getting them, but they are not the fruits the Bible talks about. Read the Book of Glations for the fruits.

I had said:
Well, Christ taught non-judgment, love, peace, compassion, healing, taking care of the poor... So if these actions are not evident in someone, then I can assume they are not working from a place of truth.

Galatians 5:22-23 says:
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control; against such there is no law."

I'm failing to see the difference. They are completely in line with each other. My former list was not exhaustive, but Jesus did teach what I listed, and this conforms to the fruits of the Spirit.

You will know the Children of God by their fruits!

I know quite a few non-Christians that bear the fruit discussed in the Galatians scripture above. A great example we all can relate to is Ghandi. He was not Christian, but he exhibited all the fruits of the Spirit.

Take Jesus on his word. Repent (STOP sinning), ask him into your life, and read the Bible. God will do the proving!

Well... thanks for the advice. But Jesus is already in my life and I already read and study the Bible. And as I am a mystic, I'm already focused on my personal relationship with God and insight into scripture. I am not a mainstream Christian, nor do I claim to be. I am a follower of Christ, however, and I count him as my Lord. There is a lot of variety in Christianity, and to me it is pointless for some of us to point to others and say they are not "real" Christians. I believe in sharing ideas without judgment or evangelizing, and rejoicing that so many people in the world are seeking God and truth, and are trying to lead ethical lives. I share my beliefs when asked or in a forum like this, but I believe that my actions should reflect God's love and teachings and that it is unneccessary for me to tell people what they should do with their spirituality.

Its good that you admit that you "think" rather than saying you "know."

Of course I admit that. I am just a human being. I am not God and so I cannot completely comprehend God or know how God thinks, feels, behaves, etc. I believe we all see only glimpses of a Being that is so great, so incomprehensibly and vastly bigger than us and our minds, that we can only say that we "have experienced" this, or "think" or "believe" that. I would never claim to *know* everything about God.

ALL religion tell you to do good deeds, but Jesus says come to him that you may be forgiven.


Actually, Jesus said: "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your heavenly Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew 6:14-15).

Are you a good person? Have you ever lied, lusted, stole something, called God's name in vain, wanted what someone else wanted?

Again, as I said good does not equal perfect.

Please do. It will be interesting to read. That said, I want to remind you that Jesus said time and again that Salavation is ONLY through him. This is the underlining mesesage of the WHOLE Bible, incidentially.

All right, in Matthew alone we have:
Follow the commandments 5:19, 19:16-21
Love your enemies 5:44
Give alms secretly, not for public display 6:4
Pray secretly, not for public display 6:6
Forgive others and you will be forgiven 6:14-15, 18:35
Fast secretly, not for public display 6:18
Do the Father's will 7:21-22
Blaspheming against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but not against
the Holy Spirit 12:32
We are rewarded according to our works 16:27
Receiving children in His name 18:5
Taking care of those in need 25:34-40

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
What do you think of that?

I don't think we're saved by works. Or by our faith, because we all have had times we doubt. I believe we're saved and enter God's presence purely out of the goodness, grace, and mercy of God. I do believe that cultivating a personal relationship with God yields good fruit, as Jesus taught.

Apparently Jesus saw passed the hypocrites who faked their walk with God by pointing out he was "breaking the law," when infact, he was obeying the 2 most important laws:
1. Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and body.

2. Love mankind as you love yourself.

Later,

Knowledge
I believe that's what Abogado and I were saying as well.
 
There is a lot of variety in Christianity, and to me it is pointless for some of us to point to others and say they are not "real" Christians.
Indeed. I come from a tradition whose people were severely persecuted for trying to live their vision of a Christlike life, and if there is a lesson to be learned from that experience, it's to respect the beliefs of those whom you may not agree with, and to try to find common ground, both in our humanity and our spirituality.
These good ancestors of mine did not in turn retaliate against the Christians who caused their suffering, but resolved to show by their suffering that Christ did indeed dwell within them. They forgave their self-defined enemies.
One story: An Anabaptist was being pursued by the authorities across a frozen lake, when he became aware that his closest pursuer had fallen through the ice. Instead of continuing his flight, he turned back, and pulled his pursuer from the frozen water--saving that person's life, but assuring his capture and eventual death.
I find more truth in that account than I do in any amount of preaching about sin, salvation, and damnation.
 
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