Masturbation and God

[Snoopy]

there's a time and a place for waxing.

s.

 

[dauer]

Dauer,

Don't you think you've kept this up for long enough now?

s.

Attempt at a pun? Or serious inquiry? This thread has died many times. It's occasionally revived, and when it is, as with most threads, I have no problem continuing. Does the content offend you? It's not in jest. I am quite serious.

Dauer

 

[Snoopy]

Attempt at a pun? Or serious inquiry? This thread has died many times. It's occasionally revived, and when it is, as with most threads, I have no problem continuing. Does the content offend you? It's not in jest. I am quite serious.

Dauer

Hi,

Not serious - there's a smiley face in my post. I had an attack of levity.

It's difficult to offend me; this doesn't and if it did I know where the off button is!

s.

 

[Silas]

God does see masterbation as a sin. In fact, Jesus said, "You heard it say that you shall not commit adultry, but I say to you that whoever looks at a woman with lust, has commited adultry with her in his heart." God sees our thoughts, and judges us by them. He is truely HOLY!

I trust that I'm speaking to adults here and so I want to add to what Conscience has said - namely, about the fact that God knows how wicked our hearts are. You see, in the moment of lust and masturbation, many perverted things are going on that we shouldnt even think about. Take porn, for example. Its not just that we look at porn and masturbate, but in our minds and hearts (in the moment of masturbation) we desire what we see. Therefore, in that moment, we are all perverse and sexually perverted people who only seek self gratification at the expensive of another person. In truth, we are all fornicators and adulterers for lack of real opportunity. Its the same way with anger by the way. If God were to take away His common grace and have all us do what we want to do in the heat of the moment, whether it be lust or hate, we'd all be the worst of men and woman. Ah, but we are just that! Its only the Sovereign God who restrains us and over comes our rebellion with His grace and love. Most people dont see this and they think they are good people. I would ask such a person to humble themselves and pray that God gives you grace to see yourself in truth.

Also, check out these these two sermons about "Sex and the Supremecy of Christ" which deals with the purpose of Sex, here: Part 1 and Part 2.

Finally, you can check out a song about Porn by Chrisitan Rapper Timothy Brindle. The song, by the way, deals with the above sermons, "sex and the supremacy of Christ," which is by Pastor/Theologian, John Piper. You can find the song here.

 

[dauer]

You see, in the moment of lust and masturbation, many perverted things are going on that we shouldnt even think about.

But is masturbation always about lust? Is the eating of food when one is hungry about lust? What if we restrain ourselves and only eat at meals and snack times? I think your whole point is based on too many subjective and unestablished premises.

Take porn, for example.

Why not use masturbation as the example? Porn isn't masturbation, nor does masturbation have to include porn. It's a separate issue. You're including it in order to attempt to demonize what I consider to be a potentially sacred act.

but in our minds and hearts (in the moment of masturbation) we desire what we see.

What if what we really desire is our significant other, and we only look at it to remind ourselves of them?

Therefore, in that moment, we are all perverse and sexually perverted people who only seek self gratification at the expensive of another person.

Well that's sure built on faulty foundation. You make a very big leap there, based on assumptions you make about all of humanity, and use very strong language about it. And if we are truly only people who seek self gratification at the expense of another person (which I do not agree with at all) then wouldn't that be the way God made us?

If God were to take away His common grace and have all us do what we want to do in the heat of the moment, whether it be lust or hate, we'd all be the worst of men and woman.

So in other words, if all we had was the id, the animal mind, and not the parts that evolved later, we'd act like our ancestors, like animals. Just the same, if God removed our id, we would have no strong desires. Couldn't we conversely also get mad at God for giving us an id, and not fashioning us in some other way?

Its only the Sovereign God who restrains us and over comes our rebellion with His grace and love. Most people dont see this and they think they are good people.

But if we follow this line of thinking is it also not God who allows us to do things like murder and rape? If we give the good to God, should we not also give the bad?

Also, check out these these two sermons about "Sex and the Supremecy of Christ" which deals with the purpose of Sex, here: Part 1 and Part 2.

I'm really not interested in more missionizing. I had a little gift bag on my doorknob when I got home. I saw it on the doorknobs of my neighbors too. THought maybe someone gave everyone a present. Unfortunately, it was just garbage: a dvd about endtimes prophecies in the bible, and how they are suppossedly fulfilled today. So I've had my dose of obnoxious missionizing for the month, thank you very much.

Dauer

 

[wil]

I'm really not interested in more missionizing. I had a little gift bag on my doorknob when I got home. I saw it on the doorknobs of my neighbors too. THought maybe someone gave everyone a present. Unfortunately, it was just garbage: a dvd about endtimes prophecies in the bible, and how they are suppossedly fulfilled today.

Negative fear based marketing...amazing. Could you imagine if you received a small loaf of banana bread, or some truffles, and a welcome to an interfaith dinner/dance social....how much less likely you'd be to throw it in the garbage, how much more likely that you'd be appreciative, and how it would increase the odds of you considering the invitation??

It is unfortunate so many of us live with a lack mentality instead of the abundance that G-d shows us...

 

[Silas]

dauer

But is masturbation always about lust?

You tell me. Why did you masterbate when you did?

Why not use masturbation as the example? Porn isn't masturbation, nor does masturbation have to include porn. It's a separate issue. You're including it in order to attempt to demonize what I consider to be a potentially sacred act.

When we look at someone with lustful intent, God sees it as adulterery. There's nothing more to be said bro. Either you repent or perish. You've heard the truth.

Well that's sure built on faulty foundation. You make a very big leap there, based on assumptions you make about all of humanity, and use very strong language about it. And if we are truly only people who seek self gratification at the expense of another person (which I do not agree with at all) then wouldn't that be the way God made us?

Again, every time you looked in lust (whether through porn or some pretty girl on the street or where ever) God saw your mind and your thoughts as adulterery. You know the Law..."You must not committe adultery," says Yahweh.

But if we follow this line of thinking is it also not God who allows us to do things like murder and rape? If we give the good to God, should we not also give the bad?

Yes! Way to go! God does allows sin. Why do you think we have people flying into buildings and people bombing people and and rape, like you mentioned, and porn and animals killing men and tonandos and robbings and all the word's ills. None of this would occure if God were not allowing it to happen!! Now, I know many will not understand what I just said, so let me qulify my statement with this: God is NOT the one sinning or making anyone else sin, but He does allow men to sin and cause ills of all sorts, and it works to His purposes. Men arent sovereign and they havent thwarted God's plans. Man, as well as angels, only do what the Almight God permits them to do and nothing more or less. He's that much in control!!

I'm really not interested in more missionizing. I had a little gift bag on my doorknob when I got home. I saw it on the doorknobs of my neighbors too. THought maybe someone gave everyone a present. Unfortunately, it was just garbage: a dvd about endtimes prophecies in the bible, and how they are suppossedly fulfilled today. So I've had my dose of obnoxious missionizing for the month, thank you very much.

Its a very terrifying thing to tell of God's words! If what I said is wrong, I will be judged because God promises to judge all our idol words. That said however, it is also a very frightful thing to hear or read the word of God. If what I say is true; especially concerning the lust/adulterery issue, you will be responsible for conforming to the truths you read. If you do not and instead dispise the words you read, greater condemnation will be your reward. And, if you say "I dont believe that God sends people to hell," that will not change its reality and the fact that if you do not repent and trust in the Messiah, Yeshua, you will be there. I am pleading with you bro! "Fear God and keep His Commandments!"

 

[dauer]

You tell me. Why did you masterbate when you did?

The same reason I ate when I did, or slept when I did. Do we sleep because of lust? Now if you were arguing that oversleeping is a problem, that would be something else entirely. One could also argue from your premise that it is possible to lust for God, and that this lust is sinful.

When we look at someone with lustful intent, God sees it as adulterery.

That's a subjective statement that assumes many things both about the nature of God, if God exists, and then about the thoughts of said assumed God. Can you prove such a biased statement without referencing to any text at all? You state it so strongly, surely you must then have objective, undeniable evidence that would be clear to all regardless of persuasion. You also make the assumption (I'm assuming, lol) that masturbation has to be focused on thinking about another individual. Why can it not be an experience for oneself? Or an experience between oneself and God?

You know the Law..."You must not committe adultery," says YHWH.

Well, as I'm sure you're aware, I don't accept any sacred text as any more sacred and inspired than the rest of the world. I believe that they only have as much subjective sacredness and holiness as we attribute to them. As I'm sure you're also aware, your definition of adultery is not a standard one, nor is it one that that can be gathered from the plain meaning of the text, nor is it something that halachah (Jewish law) ever went along with. And as I'm sure you're also aware, as a Jew, and as a free thinker, I don't believe for a minute that sin stains, nor do I see in any way how this worldview could possibly be helpful to the psyche.

God is NOT the one sinning or making anyone else sin, but He does allow men to sin and cause ills of all sorts, and it works to His purposes.

I think you're missing the point. In your previous post you attributed the good to God. But if you attribute the good to God, then either you must also attribute the bad to God or you're setting up a situation where God is not all-powerful. Let me give you an example.

Let's say there's a guy who's setting up some dominoes to topple over. And he's all-knowing, all-powerful, etc. In the middle of the row of dominoes, there's a dominoe that falls and triggers a knife to go flying into a live animal. Now this guy knows it's going to happen from the start, and he could stop it any time, but he doesn't. There's also another domino that falls and triggers a needle to deliver antivenom to a poison into someone who's ill. So he'd be responsible for that too. But you can't say he's responsible for one, and not the other, without violating logic. Now if you want to say God is an illogical entity who does not need to be explained in rational terms because he's above and beyond all that, fine, but that doesn't make much of a case for you. It's a fallback position.

If what I said is wrong, I will be judged because God promises to judge all our idol words.

That's not the only possibility. You could also die and have nothing happen, because there is no God (we are talking about if you were wrong.) You could still go to a place like heaven, because another religion is right, you could be reincarnated, or endless other possibilities. If you're considering what if you're wrong, then surely you must then consider all of the possibilities for if all of Christianity is indeed wrong. And you know even Catholics, they say iirc, that if you don't get on their path in this life, you still get the choice after death. So it may still be particularist and triumphalist, but it's also inclusivist.

That said however, it is also a very frightful thing to hear or read the word of God.

Why do you do all of these things that are so frightful to you? Why not relax? My experiences with God have never been so stressful and anxiety provoking as yours sound. Usually they're quite pleasant, or even the intensely emotional ones, not something that would cause me to run around like Chicken Little for the rest of my life. You know I wouldn't mind missionaries if it went a little bit more like this.

Missionary comes to the door. Dauer answers.

"Hi. Can I help you?"
"Hello we were just wondering if you had heard the word of our lord and savior jesus christ?"
"Yeah, actually I already heard it all. It doesn't really interest me. I'm happy with the beliefs I have now."
"Oh, okay. Sorry to bother you. Enjoy your evening. "
"Thanks. You too."

Now that would be nice.

If you do not and instead dispise the words you read, greater condemnation will be your reward. And, if you say "I dont believe that God sends people to hell," that will not change its reality and the fact that if you do not repent and trust in the Messiah, Yeshua, you will be there. I am pleading with you bro! "Fear God and keep His Commandments!"

Okay okay. I get it. You get off on the fire and brimstone fear mongering. It gives you a thrill and energizes you, throbbing with self-rightous bravado until you can't contain yourself anymore and burst in a fury of condemnation.

Your argument is essentially, "Believe what I believe because if you don't you will suffer eternally." But other people make the same argument. That's strike one (and not the most important.) Let me use an example for this one. Let's say you're in college and the teacher tells you, "Now, as I'm sure you all know, the world is flat. And if you don't accept this, then you're going to suffer eternally after you die. And because you heard this from me, it's going to be even worse if you don't accept it. And I'm going to tell you this every day you come to class, and I'm going to use dramatic condemnatory language while saying that I care about you and calling you names that suggest we are closer than we are, because you need to know that I'm right, and by repeating myself in this manner, that show it must be true despite all evidence to the contrary.

A threat is not proof. It's like a bully standing over a person with a bat and saying, "You are not like me, and I'm sorry about that bro, but because of it I'm going to beat you every day after school."

Second, if you're going to be the playground bully, don't call me bro. We can make nice, but not when you wave a bat every time I see you by the Four Square court.

And finally, you know I've asked you, and someone else has pointed out also that your behavior is certainly probably not the best way to go about things, not to Hebraize Jesus' name when speaking to me. I find missionizing targetted at a particular people via disguise and deception particularly offensive. Jesus may have been Jewish, but he's got less to do with Judaism than Einstein.


Dauer