Where was Eden, and does it matter?

E

eprom

Guest
I’ve recently launched a web site that puts forward an Israeli location for Eden and I’m looking for critical feedback. The proposition may seem trite, but I believe it has implications in a number of areas that affect Biblical studies including, Soteriology, Pneumatology, Eschatology, and Hermeneutics. The site is far from finished, and does need a bit of editing, but there’s already a lot of information here to review, drawing from Biblical, Historical, and Scientific evidence to support this proposition. You can review the site at:

http://www.faith-friends.com/Eden[link removed by I, Brian]

So . . . is this very ground which saw the first sin & fall, be the very place of redemption and restoration? Any feedback is welcome!
 
eprom said:
I’ve recently launched a web site that puts forward an Israeli location for Eden and I’m looking for critical feedback. The proposition may seem trite, but I believe it has implications in a number of areas that affect Biblical studies including, Soteriology, Pneumatology, Eschatology, and Hermeneutics. The site is far from finished, and does need a bit of editing, but there’s already a lot of information here to review, drawing from Biblical, Historical, and Scientific evidence to support this proposition. You can review the site at:

http://www.faith-friends.com/Eden

So . . . is this very ground which saw the first sin & fall, be the very place of redemption and restoration? Any feedback is welcome!
Click to expand...
Welcome to CR Eprom! ;)

I have no intention of disputing your findings (I find much logic in them). I will present what I learned, then you can consider for your self.

First, to be fair, one must look at the possiblity of Eden (and more specifically the Garden of - ), in three lights:

Geographical, Geological, and chronological (both scriptural and secular)

First, I wish to bring forth the geographical. In Genesis, Eden is described by the author in extreme detail, with particular attention to names of places and things, as though the author expects the reader to know or identify with these places. Next the author describes the river of Eden as the feeder recipeint of 4 seperate rivers (Pison through Havilah land of gold, onyx and bdellium - Gihon, through Ethiopia or Cush - Hiddekel just east of Assyria - and the Eurphrates). Genesis 2:8-14

Also, Ezekiel identifies Eden as a city in his time. In fact it is one of the cities that is part of a ring of trading cities, and he appears to place Eden south of Babylonia. Ezk 27:23

Through time (at least 5000 years or post flood) the Euphrates has always been called the equivilent of that in some variation of language or another. Hiddekel likewise has carried the same meaning (which today means Tigris). Pison, though now a dried up "wadi" appears to pass through the general area of Arabia (at large), and ties in right at the Euprhates River. One must remember that the desert area today was not so 3500 years ago. It was a "steppe" with plant, water and life. And finally the Gihon, or Dyala coming from the land of Cush or "Kassites" (as opposed to Cush/Ethiopia).

I'll stop here for now, and look forward to your thoughts. ;)

v/r

Q
 
Sorry eprom, but we' don;t allow CR to be used in such a self-promotional manner - however, it is an interesting question.

I haven't followed the question too closely, but from what I encountered, no one is placing Eden in Israel - though if you have any counter idea, then you are welcome to suggest them here (though please do not simply copy/paste from your site - use your own words in a discussion format, please :) ).
 
PS - moved to "Ancient Lore" section, as the topic isn't about the theological aspects of the Garden of Eden, as much as its physical location.
 
Well many claim it to be in ancient Mesopotamia, I believe that the Garden of Eden was originally written by the Atlantean’s which later civilisations took on and edited place names ect. :) Time will prove this I believe.
 
And then there are the Mormons, who teach that the Garden of Eden was on the North American continent, more specifically in either Jackson County or Daviess County, Missouri. As I understand it, that is also where they believe that the Second Coming will take place.
 
littlemissattitude said:
And then there are the Mormons, who teach that the Garden of Eden was on the North American continent, more specifically in either Jackson County or Daviess County, Missouri. As I understand it, that is also where they believe that the Second Coming will take place.
Click to expand...
The Chicago, the Snake and the Missouri Rivers dumping into the Mississippi...I can see that. But what is the fourth river? ;)

v/r

Q
 
My view is that the "Garden of Eden" (like the "Kingdom of God" in the Gospel of Thomas) is all around us (or perhaps more appropriately, in us), but people don't see or experience it.
 
My view is that the "Garden of Eden" (like the "Kingdom of God" in the Gospel of Thomas) is all around us (or perhaps more appropriately, in us), but people don't see or experience it.
Click to expand...
I agree with that :)
 
I would contend the rivers which surrounded Eden are late entries. Dilmun was the original location of the Eden wriiten about in the Bible. The story comes from a similar Sumerian myth. Dilmun was a world power circa 2500 BCE. and its economy dominated that region as evidenced by the Ebla texts.
 
Nogodnomasters said:
I would contend the rivers which surrounded Eden are late entries. Dilmun was the original location of the Eden wriiten about in the Bible. The story comes from a similar Sumerian myth. Dilmun was a world power circa 2500 BCE. and its economy dominated that region as evidenced by the Ebla texts.
Click to expand...

Possibly, except the Sumerians are known to have been around (with their writings and all), 1000 years earlier than the Dilmun would have been. And the Sumerians do not identify Dilmun's location as that of Eden.

Second, sattelite topographical photgraphs of the area in question do show two dry river beds linking up to the two still existing rivers as described in the story of Eden. Photographs also show that one of the existing rivers (Euphrates) has shifted its water flow slightly from its original position.
 
Quahom1 said:
Possibly, except the Sumerians are known to have been around (with their writings and all), 1000 years earlier than the Dilmun would have been. And the Sumerians do not identify Dilmun's location as that of Eden.

Second, sattelite topographical photgraphs of the area in question do show two dry river beds linking up to the two still existing rivers as described in the story of Eden. Photographs also show that one of the existing rivers (Euphrates) has shifted its water flow slightly from its original position.
Click to expand...

My theory contends that the first manuscript for the Bible was written circa 2218-2000 BCE.

The satellite image does not indicate when the text was written and is of no consequence.
Dilmun was known as “the Land of Eternal Life” and was the Eden, or “paradise”, of the Babylonians.[2] Dilmun is considered modern day Bahrain.[3] Archeological digs of Saar, Bahrain (ancient Dilmun) revealed an earthly paradise of many trees where fresh water bubbled up from the ground. Palm tress bearing dates grew without effort. The town was abandoned in about 1700 B.C.E., perhaps due to a change in the water supply.



The unique feature about Dilmun was its underground water supply. This allowed for the growth of nearly every type of tree including date palms or fig trees.. This underground supply of water is mentioned in the Sumerian paradise poem of Enki where Dilmun is watered by the sun-god with fresh water brought up from the earth. The Bible’s Eden also had such a feature.[4]


2 http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=37218#_ednref2Mythologies of the Ancient World.General editor: Kramer, Samuel Noah. Doubleday, 1961. Page 102:
“The Sumerian paradise is located according to our poem in Dilmun. It is the same Dilmun where later the Babylonian and Semitic people who conquered the Sumerians, located their “land of living,” the home of immortals. And there is good indication that the Biblical paradise [Eden –ML] …may have been originally identical with Dilmun, the Sumerian paradise-land.”


3 http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=37218#_ednref3Bibby, Geoffrey. Looking for Dilmun. New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1969. Bibby also mentions neighboring Qatar as part as Dilmun.


4 http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=37218#_ednref4Mythologies of the Ancient World.General editor: Kramer, Samuel Noah.Doubleday, 1961. Page 102: “Again the passage in our poem describing the watering of Dilmun by the sun-god with fresh water brought up from the earth is reminiscent of the Biblical ‘But there went up a mist (?) from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground’ (Genesis 2:6).”



 
Nogodnomasters said:
My theory contends that the first manuscript for the Bible was written circa 2218-2000 BCE.

The satellite image does not indicate when the text was written and is of no consequence.
Dilmun was known as “the Land of Eternal Life” and was the Eden, or “paradise”, of the Babylonians.[2] Dilmun is considered modern day Bahrain.[3] Archeological digs of Saar, Bahrain (ancient Dilmun) revealed an earthly paradise of many trees where fresh water bubbled up from the ground. Palm tress bearing dates grew without effort. The town was abandoned in about 1700 B.C.E., perhaps due to a change in the water supply.



The unique feature about Dilmun was its underground water supply. This allowed for the growth of nearly every type of tree including date palms or fig trees.. This underground supply of water is mentioned in the Sumerian paradise poem of Enki where Dilmun is watered by the sun-god with fresh water brought up from the earth. The Bible’s Eden also had such a feature.[4]


2 Mythologies of the Ancient World.General editor: Kramer, Samuel Noah. Doubleday, 1961. Page 102:
“The Sumerian paradise is located according to our poem in Dilmun. It is the same Dilmun where later the Babylonian and Semitic people who conquered the Sumerians, located their “land of living,” the home of immortals. And there is good indication that the Biblical paradise [Eden –ML] …may have been originally identical with Dilmun, the Sumerian paradise-land.”


3 Bibby, Geoffrey. Looking for Dilmun. New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1969. Bibby also mentions neighboring Qatar as part as Dilmun.


4 Mythologies of the Ancient World.General editor: Kramer, Samuel Noah.Doubleday, 1961. Page 102: “Again the passage in our poem describing the watering of Dilmun by the sun-god with fresh water brought up from the earth is reminiscent of the Biblical ‘But there went up a mist (?) from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground’ (Genesis 2:6).”
Click to expand...

Except that Eden was located at the four points of the rivers, and Dilmun is not. The hidden rivers were recently discovered as technology allows us to do from time to time. Also your references are over 35 to 44 years old, and much has been discovered since then. One could say your references are of no consequence, but then that would be rude, now wouldn't it?

Your theory on the first manuscripts of the bible are contrary to what is accepted by most theologians today. You say 2000 or so BC, and they date them to be circa 1400 BC. Semantics.

A picture is worth a thousand words, especially when it coincides with what the original description and location of Eden was.

eh, what do I know? I'm only an engineer. ;)

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
Except that Eden was located at the four points of the rivers, and Dilmun is not. The hidden rivers were recently discovered as technology allows us to do from time to time. Also your references are over 35 to 44 years old, and much has been discovered since then. One could say your references are of no consequence, but then that would be rude, now wouldn't it?

Your theory on the first manuscripts of the bible are contrary to what is accepted by most theologians today. You say 2000 or so BC, and they date them to be circa 1400 BC. Semantics.

A picture is worth a thousand words, especially when it coincides with what the original description and location of Eden was.

eh, what do I know? I'm only an engineer. ;)

v/r

Q
Click to expand...

You quote the Bible as a reference and claim my sources are "old." I don't accept the idea modern theologians and their biblical dating of the text. Like I said, the four rivers were added later to the text. Even if the rivers were in the text it still does not mean the author simply used the Sumerian Text as a template and changed the location to suit themselves. This was quite common in that area to do that in writing of myths (Tigay's "The Evolution of the Gilgamesh Epic.") To pick out one detail in the text and then dismiss all the similarities is poor scholarship, unless one is an apologist, then its no scholarship.

Since you lack sources to quote, I guess my old ones are still good.
 
Nogodnomasters said:
You quote the Bible as a reference and claim my sources are "old." I don't accept the idea modern theologians and their biblical dating of the text. Like I said, the four rivers were added later to the text. Even if the rivers were in the text it still does not mean the author simply used the Sumerian Text as a template and changed the location to suit themselves. This was quite common in that area to do that in writing of myths (Tigay's "The Evolution of the Gilgamesh Epic.") To pick out one detail in the text and then dismiss all the similarities is poor scholarship, unless one is an apologist, then its no scholarship.

Since you lack sources to quote, I guess my old ones are still good.
Click to expand...

You also claim to be God's gift to Athiests. I know you've been around awhile, and I should respect you. But respect begets...

Rough cut timber I can work with. Timber that doesn't exist...is air in my hands.

I hope you understand me, sir.

Q
 
i believe eden was a real place. & since they cannot find much in the way of anyone or anything from the line of the righteous seed, HA!:p , i believe it even more.

Abogado del Diablo

My view is that the "Garden of Eden" (like the "Kingdom of God" in the Gospel of Thomas) is all around us (or perhaps more appropriately, in us), but people don't see or experience it.
Click to expand...

i like this too, except for i think we can experience it when we believe & draw really really close to God, because the Kingdom of God is not of this world.
i still think eden was a real place, but possibly in a different dimension than what we will ever know while in the flesh.
 
Here are some hypotheses:

1 Eden has never existed, it's meant symbolically. True, but boring.
2 Eden was in Mesopotamia, around the Tigris. A literal reading of the Bible seems to confirm this. It also says that Adam and Eve were expelled to the east. Ur is east of the Tigris.
3 Eden was in East Africa, were the first humans lived. After Eve ate from the forbidden fruit, god made the paradise disappear. This fits: the African rain forest went originally to Ethiopia. Agriculture was invented after the rain forest disappeared.
4 Eden was in Madagascar, also east Africa. There is still a lot of fauna and flora that only exists in Madagascar (island east of Africa). The two forbidden trees were two baobabs that you can still find there. They look like two lovers. Here's a photo of the Tree of Life and the Tree of knowledge:
http://cf.geocities.com/traces_dexil/baobabs/amoureux.jpg
 
queenofsheba said:
Here are some hypotheses:

1 Eden has never existed, it's meant symbolically. True, but boring.
2 Eden was in Mesopotamia, around the Tigris. A literal reading of the Bible seems to confirm this. It also says that Adam and Eve were expelled to the east. Ur is east of the Tigris.
3 Eden was in East Africa, were the first humans lived. After Eve ate from the forbidden fruit, god made the paradise disappear. This fits: the African rain forest went originally to Ethiopia. Agriculture was invented after the rain forest disappeared.
4 Eden was in Madagascar, also east Africa. There is still a lot of fauna and flora that only exists in Madagascar (island east of Africa). The two forbidden trees were two baobabs that you can still find there. They look like two lovers. Here's a photo of the Tree of Life and the Tree of knowledge:
http://cf.geocities.com/traces_dexil/baobabs/amoureux.jpg
Click to expand...

Except that the Bible describes the four rivers converging. Tigris, Euphrates, being two of them. Question, what of the other two? Answer: now dried up, however one can see where they were when they did run, through satellite photos. The four points of the river converge in the middle east. Pictures even show that the Euphrates has moved from its original river bed by about two miles.

Nogodnomaster assumed similar ideas, however topagraphical pictures don't lie (unless retouched).

something to think about.

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
Except that the Bible describes the four rivers converging. Tigris, Euphrates, being two of them. Question, what of the other two? Answer: now dried up, however one can see where they were when they did run, through satellite photos. The four points of the river converge in the middle east. Pictures even show that the Euphrates has moved from its original river bed by about two miles.

Nogodnomaster assumed similar ideas, however topagraphical pictures don't lie (unless retouched).

something to think about.

v/r

Q
Click to expand...

The 4 rivers are anchronistic. They would not be part of the original text. How could there had been those 4 rivers around Eden followed by a world wide flood which destroyed the earth's topography? Or was there no flood which covered mountains and moved boulders?
 
Nogodnomasters said:
The 4 rivers are anchronistic. They would not be part of the original text. How could there had been those 4 rivers around Eden followed by a world wide flood which destroyed the earth's topography? Or was there no flood which covered mountains and moved boulders?
Click to expand...

Where would you get the idea that a flood would destroy completely the earth's topography? The Pacific Islands are "mountain tops" sticking out of the water, for example. The mountain's hidden below are up to six miles high, or more, and they are being "moved" by the water.

A gulch might disappear because it is mostly sand and light earth, but a river bed cut into stone is not going to erode away in less than five thousand years. It might be covered with sand and light earth, however that can be easily filtered out with proper photographic equipment...it is done every day. Sonar and ground radar paints pictures of what can't be seen with the eye. Doesn't mean it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The San Andreas fault can't be seen by the eye either...until it is viewed from space. The four river beds are still there, and still linked to eachother at a single point in the Middle East.

The "anchronistic" concept, doesn't hold water.

Q
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top