Where was Eden, and does it matter?

Quahom1 said:
Where would you get the idea that a flood would destroy completely the earth's topography? The Pacific Islands are "mountain tops" sticking out of the water, for example. The mountain's hidden below are up to six miles high, or more, and they are being "moved" by the water.

A gulch might disappear because it is mostly sand and light earth, but a river bed cut into stone is not going to erode away in less than five thousand years. It might be covered with sand and light earth, however that can be easily filtered out with proper photographic equipment...it is done every day. Sonar and ground radar paints pictures of what can't be seen with the eye. Doesn't mean it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The San Andreas fault can't be seen by the eye either...until it is viewed from space. The four river beds are still there, and still linked to eachother at a single point in the Middle East.

The "anchronistic" concept, doesn't hold water.

Q
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I got the idea from Creationist who claimed the flood formed the Grand Canyon and created mountains. Either is did or it didn't. You can't have it both ways.
 
Nogodnomasters said:
I got the idea from Creationist who claimed the flood formed the Grand Canyon and created mountains. Either is did or it didn't. You can't have it both ways.
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Nothing wrong with the "creationist or Evolutionist" concept. Time is the issue. How much time, and the concept of time "biblically speaking" is the issue.

6 days, the earth is six billion years old. Man was made at the end of the six days? Makes sense. Man is not that old. Even if it was decided that he was one, two, or three million years in the making, that is nothing in the time of 6 billion years.

As for dust? Everything is made from dust...EVERYTHING.

No conflict there.

Water, is a very powerful medium. Water, can cut steel, 2 feet thick, in less than a second. The trick is that it has to be "RUSHING WATER" (pressurized and tightly focused or moving at great speeds in large quantities). Super heated steam can do the same thing.

The mountains being created by water, that is a probability (along with magma under pressure as well). If water was released from below the surface of the tectonic plates at certain faults, the result could be the shifting of said plates, causing one to jamb against another and "ride" over the top of it. The higher the mountain range, and the more jagged its surfaces suggests the "younger" that range is (errosion has not taken affect yet). the last tsunami in Asia, bears such actions, only in minor proportions). Old Faithful in Yellow Stone National Park is a miniature example of water under pressure cutting a path through stone, and being released from below the surface of the earth.

The monsoon in India last week is a small example of how rain and winds can kill everything around in short order.

Q
 
Genesis says the four rivers had a common well, but the Tigris and the Euphrat don't have a common well.
 
queenofsheba said:
Genesis says the four rivers had a common well, but the Tigris and the Euphrat don't have a common well.
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Always fighting poorly thought out theories with facts. Not very Christian of you. Cosmically the four rivers most likely represented the Milky Way at the four cardinal points.
 
Nogodnomasters said:
Always fighting poorly thought out theories with facts. Not very Christian of you. Cosmically the four rivers most likely represented the Milky Way at the four cardinal points.
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Yes NG, facts do tend to get in the way of speculation...such a damned nuisance those facts. Especially when they support such "poorly thought out theories".

Queenofsheba, I don't know if you consider this of merit, but I'll present it anyway. below the surface of the desert where these "four" rivers run, is a common water table. All four rivers "spring" from this well, so to speak. That is to say their source of water is the same. Granted the water also comes from run off from the hills. Just a thought.

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
Yes NG, facts do tend to get in the way of speculation...such a damned nuisance those facts. Especially when they support such "poorly thought out theories".

Queenofsheba, I don't know if you consider this of merit, but I'll present it anyway. below the surface of the desert where these "four" rivers run, is a common water table. All four rivers "spring" from this well, so to speak. That is to say their source of water is the same. Granted the water also comes from run off from the hills. Just a thought.

v/r

Q
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We are really reaching on this one, but I'll give you points for originallity.
 
Nogodnomasters said:
We are really reaching on this one, but I'll give you points for originallity.
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Thanks but I wasn't reaching for anything. I stated a fact. And used it to present what I speculate might be.

I never said anything was cut in stone...;)

...except for certain riverbeds.

v/r

Q
 
I believe that Eden is within us or at least a world that exists in the same space as our world but on a different frequency. And yes I believe it matters because it is that place of paradise that we all seek which is suppose to exist in the "golden age". It is a world that is possible and a world in which we live in balance with each other and with our universe. That place called Eden is also called the promise land, the garden of babylon, paradise, the holy of holies .... all the same place, just different names. The process to reach this place is spelled out in many ancient texts, at least that is how I see it, but it is always meanings within meanings. One of my favorite is a Greek myth about the dead crossing the river Styx trying to reach paradise on the other side. Again, look at the human body with arms stretched out parallel to the ground on both sides .... the arms represent the "river Styx" and to cross over is from the lower world of matter (the four energy centers below the neck) to the world of spirit (the three energy centers above the neck) or the place of paradise. Those trying to cross in a boat are fearful because the river is covered with flames and there are hurricane like winds blowing and thunder storms. The other side is guarded by a three headed beast called Cerberus and he is fearsome. The metaphor is that the flames and winds represent our human emotions and old baggage that we must release to enter paradise. The three headed beast is none othe than the three hemispheres of the brain. In the end all it takes is some honey and poppyseed cake to calm Cerberus. The brain released chemicals that begin the process of bridging the hemispheres .... one of those chemicals is melatonine which is a milk like substance and the other (forgot the name) is a honey colored substance (the land of milk and honey) .... when we move the spiralling energy into the center of the brain we begin the process of visions or revelations that allow us to cross over or pass over into the world of spirit or paradise or eden. This center of the brain is also called the bridal chamber because it is covered by the veil over the brain (the arachnoid) and is the sacred place where the male and female energies (that spiralling energy) merge. It is also called the cave in some traditions and is located in the center of the brain or on the mountaintop. I'm beginning to sound like a broken record in my postings and I apologize, but all these discussions and threads keep taking me back to the same place. I believe that everything is linked .... there are many paths to the mountaintop .... but when we get there we see the same moon. It is like the passing of the year .... the winter and time of darkness when things go underground to be reborn in the spring .... and the summer the time of light when things emerge in the sunlight. In Hawaii we call it the time of PO (thetime of the gods) and the time of AO (the time of man) .... winter and summer, two halves ....the dark and the light ..... like the year itself we must pass through one to enter the other. In the ancient hawaiian tradition the top of the mountain is called "wao akua" the "forest of the gods" because it is a place so dense and is seldom penetrated by man .... but when it is penetrated one finds Eden or Paradise. When we each discover that this place exists within us and has been with us all along, we will begin to change our world simply because we have changed our minds. he hawai'i au, pohaikawahine
 
Quahom1 said:
The Chicago, the Snake and the Missouri Rivers dumping into the Mississippi...I can see that. But what is the fourth river? ;)

v/r

Q
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Sorry it took me so long to get back to this.

I honestly don't know that they feel constrained to figure out the four rivers description. I can't say that I have ever heard it discussed, although it could well be that there is an answer. I don't have access to the books that might answer the question. The only publication I can think of off-hand that might discuss it and might be in a public library is "Mormon Doctrine" by Bruce R. McConkie, but that isn't even official LDS doctrine, despite the title of the book. I do know of one place I can ask, but I can't guarantee I'll get an answer there.
 
The Biblical Text tells us that out of Eden went a river head that eventually turned into 4 rivers: The Euphrates, River Pison, which completely goes around the land of Havilah where there is gold, and the River Gihon, which goes around the "whole land of ethiopia. The last River, Hiddekel goes east toward Assyria. the Euphrates river originates in a place on my Biblical map called "Togarmah" which looks to be beneath the caucausus mountains, so I would say that if the river head has not changed in 5000 years, you are looking at Eden being located somewhere between the black and the caspian sea. I think this may be right as the description of eden is full of trees and rivers and fountains and fruit and animals - things that would not survive further south in the desert. Eden must have been a mountainous, cool and beautiful place that was NE of Israel. That does not surprise me, because Abraham the patriarch was not from Israel either, but came from "the Land of Ur, in Chaldea", i.e. modern day, northern Iraq. National Geographic had an issue recently (last 2-3 years) dedicated to Abraham's birthplace, and had photos of his aledged birth place and so forth, very deserty. He headed into Israel on God's call. This area was directly beneath where my location of Eden must have been. Good luck for your web sight.
 
A proposal, does it matter? Depends on if someone thinks they can enter or not. A cherub with a double edged sword guards the entrance, now what does that mean??
As for location, its more than likely underwater these days.


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My pet theory is Iran or Iraque becouse most of Genesis are from babylonian mythology
even though the later Persian religion become Zoroatrism invented the seven days and most of the religion that the Jews got under the Babylonian capture
and that was why the persian King who conqured Babylonia and made Parsia freed the Jews.
The actual Monotheism is from egypt.
The creation in seven days is Zoroastrian in which The ligh god creates good things and a minor good good associatied with each day and
then the dark god is creating each night.
The deluge myth is older than Zoroatrism.

Therefore the Guarden was actually the hanging guardens of Babylon and Adam and Eve where the mythological God king and Goddess queen Ashur and Ishtar.
The mesopotamians believed that mankind was a slaverase
and that The King and Queen ever going incarnations/possession of the same actual God pair of a devine kingdom.

The Zoroastrian kingdom is actually the kingdom of God.
 
ProphetSmurf said:
A proposal, does it matter? Depends on if someone thinks they can enter or not. A cherub with a double edged sword guards the entrance, now what does that mean??
As for location, its more than likely underwater these days.


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The double egged sword.
It means the double flooded kingoms of Mesopotamia
that was ever guarded against nomadic invadors that
Moral dualism orginated here,
with the first gods of pure good and pure evil as separate gods and godesses instead of neutral forces.
The evil gods and godessess every actuallt older religion
that was fought just a the jews demonised other gods.
The god gods were always the patrons of the at that time "new"
moralistic society.
The myth of the sinfull deluge also orginated here and therefore also the niphilim ledgend of half-angels though those obviously were orginaly Gods and heroes.
 
The evil gods and godessess every actuallt older religion
that was fought just a the jews demonised other gods.
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ahem. if you have a problem with judaism i'd appreciate it if you raised it on the judaism board - especially as i can't actually make out what you're actually saying here due to the lack of spelling and grammar.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
ProphetSmurf said:
A proposal, does it matter? Depends on if someone thinks they can enter or not. A cherub with a double edged sword guards the entrance, now what does that mean??
As for location, its more than likely underwater these days.
Click to expand...

I think anyone can enter when they stop the outside search for eden .... I wish I could send some diagrams of the brain, but I'm not good enough at this computer stuff to do that .... there are two angels that look inward and guard the entrance to the holy of holies, or the ark of the covenant .... you can see it in a particular angle when you look at the caudate nucleus that covers the inner sanctum of the brain ..... at another angle it looks like the horns of a ram which is associated with the rams that guard the entrance to the great pyramid (interesting that from different angles you see angels or demons .... as the ram's horn is usually associated with the devil) .... I wasn't going to post this time, but prophetsmurf you always post a symbol that draws my interest .... the entire human body is actually a model of solomon's temple and perhaps it is solomon's temple .... I've tried a couple of threads about symbols but there doesn't seem to be much interest for whatever reason .... I only know that from my point of view the search can only take place internally .... to me it is a waste of our energy to look outside and it cost a lot, the internal energy is everlasting and free (considering the cost of gas these days, seems like a good bet to me) .... when we remember who we were, we will know who we are and freedom can never be taken away again .... we must wake from the deep sleep and take back the power that we gave away to others long ago .... just my thoughts ....it's all about energy and light .... he hawai'i au, pohaikawahine
 
bananabrain said:
ahem. if you have a problem with judaism i'd appreciate it if you raised it on the judaism board - especially as i can't actually make out what you're actually saying here due to the lack of spelling and grammar.

b'shalom

bananabrain
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I have no problem with Judaism that is relevant.
It is a fact that Judaism and Zoroatrism demonized gods of other religions.
Hinduism and the ancient greeks has done similar things so that is nothing new.
I just wanted to say that I think Eden was in Mesopotamia and why.
Sorry for the bad spelling but I do think you can read what I posted.
 
Satanist said:
Therefore the Guarden was actually the hanging guardens of Babylon and Adam and Eve where the mythological God king and Goddess queen Ashur and Ishtar.


Contraire, these 'original god and goddess' cults/religions stem from Semiramis and Nimrod, the beginnings of all the mother/child religions. The Egyptian mother and child were worshiped as Isis with the infant Osiris or Horus seated on his mother's lap. Ancient Germans worshipped the virgin Hertha with child in arms. Scandinavians called her Disa pictured with child. In India, the mother and child were called Devaki and Krishna, and also Isi and Iswara as they are worshiped to this day. In Asia, they were known as Cybele and Deoius; in pagan Rome, as Fortuna and Jupiter-puer, or Jupiter, the boy; in Greece, as Ceres, the great mother with babe at her breast, or as Irene, the goddess of peace, with the boy Plutus in her arms.The image of mother with child in her arms was so firmly entrenched in the pagan mind that by the time Christianity appeared on the scene in 30 A.D., these statues and paintings were merely renamed and worshiped as the virgin Mary with her god-incarnate son Jesus. Thus, the pagan mother and child entered Christianity as the Roman Catholic worship of Mary with the infant Jesus. In fact, in Tibet, China, and Japan, Jesuit missionaries were astonished to find the counterpart of the madonna and child as devoutly worshiped as they were in Rome. Shing Moo, the holy mother in China was portrayed with a child in her arms and a glory around her, exactly as if she had been fashioned by Roman Catholic artisans. After Nimrod was slain, Semiramis convinced the people of Babylon that Nimrod was a god (the sun god Baal), and that she was a goddess (the Queen of Heaven). She also passed off their son Tammuz as Nimrod reincarnated . And the people bought it. Semiramis is also Nimrods own mother. Interesting trivia piece, Nimrod was born on December 25th. Last comment, and probably her biggest hoax, and funniest, Semiramis convinces the people she was a virgin. We should start a forum on this wonderful couple by themselves.

semichld.gif
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Nice and interesting.

Feel free to start that forum.

How is that relevant?
The old baby & goddess and father?

I said that Ashur and Ishtar are Adam and Eve becouse the stories of adam and eve in the guarden parallel Mesopotamian legends were
Ashur and Ishtar walk in a guarden.

And this in addition I meant that Bybylon was "Eden"
.I am talking about the style and the stories and the ideas.

I was trying to get attention to a particical idea of historical treads.

I don't deny that Gods or religion are older than this.

I didn't disscuss the orgin of the universal devine couple.
I meant the Zoroatristian gods were the first dualistic gods
devided into
Good and evil
and therefore of special menging to Jewish and Angel-mythological orgins.
 
The divine couple was Virgo-Leo. Sometimes the woman is sometimes paired with a lion such as Heba (Hittite origen of Eve). Before 2000 BCE Leo was the home of the summer solstice which placed imporatance on solar gods such as Ra. The child was a constellation above Virgo which was originally part of Leo. This later became Coma, although the child prodigy significance remained the same. In the temple of Denderah it is pictured as the classic mother with child.

In the Jewish cosmic myth the ruddy Adam (red star Regulus heart of Leo) was Leo and Virgo was Eve. At one time the cosmic lion Asad stretch several constellations. Eve (Virgo) was taken from the rib of this huge constellation. After the Greeks took over Judea the constellation was broken up by astrologers. Eve (Virgo) was now connected to the tail of Leo. This proved to be a problem for the Hebrews who wanted their cosmic myth to be correct. In order to correct this they devised a Midrash which stated Adam had a tail and Eve has made from Adam's tail bone. It would be odd such a story would develop after the Bible clearly states "rib" unless they were attempting to correct the cosmic myth.
 
I love this board, so much information coming together as if parts of a giant puzzle. My hat is of to all that contribute !!! Oh, something to enjoy, related but yet unrelated, to gardens or gods. What would the ancients have said at this?? My boys are fascinated with things like this below. Take it in and just marvel at the beauty.

 
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