Somethings I just can't accpet..

The "miracle" of the transformatin of the planet:

Postmaster said:
People like Nostradames and other people with the ability to foresee the future have also had a reputation of healing but have never started a religion. Had someone like Nostradames started a religion, he'd had probably been very sucessfull. We are all Gods creatures and some of us do have divine gifts. Mostly our energies are focused on other things, like work, sport, science, philosophy and webmastry ect ect. Even long after Christianity we still see the miracles going on. There are many documented, many of the most famous ones are people being miraculously cured when they are close to death from an illness and this is even going on as the Baha'i faith is established. I would consider the new testament as literal truth and not symbolic.
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I don't think we Baha'is really have an argument with you on this Postmaster...We acknowledge miracles can occur and that there can be seers, that the supernatural world exists... We don't argue against these things.

What we're saying is that by themselves they are no longer significant as proofs of spiritual greatness to others. To the person experiencing the miracle they are proofs... but not necessarily to others.

I think what people grave today is the "miracle" of social transformation that only they can truly participate in and derive some deep spiritual fulfillment from... What we need today is a global vision of humanity that is no longer bedeviled by racial, class and caste prejudice. All of us have a stake in this transformation into a truly global society without war, that can tap the resources of the planet to meet human needs rather than fill the coffers of the large multinational mega corporations. This "miracle" and vision is what Baha'u'llah calls us to perform with the grace of God and this "miracle" is what Jesus asked His followers to pray for...nothingless than the coming of the Kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven.

- Art
 
Greetings! :)

PM>The Baha'i faith say they didn't want there miracles documented; why not?

This is not what the Baha'i Faith says. As others have already pointed out, we freely admit the presence of miracles! :) We are simply warned not to use them as "proofs" in teaching for the simple reason that for anyone except an eyewitness, miracles are only hearsay--and even an eyewitness may misunderstand what he saw! So while they exist, we don't stress them.

The Baha'i scriptures themselves explain this in detail--far better than I can! I commend to you:

www.bahai-library.org

If you go there and follow the links: Baha'i Writings / 'Abdu'l-Baha / Some Answered Quesitons, you'll find a whole chapter explaining the whys and wherefores of this....

PM>Christ was the message, shepard, the son of God ect ect.. and he proved it.

Just as Baha'u'llah proved HIs station through His spotless life, the hundred volumes of Baha'i scripture He wrote, His fulfillment of many prophecies in the Bible and elsewhere, and His successful prophesy of future events (this latter being a Biblical proof of a divine soul).

The Bible itself provides ample criteria, proofs and tests both of a new religion and of a prophet/Divine Messenger, and I put it to you that Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith pass these tests with flying colors! (All you need to do is examine these to discover this.)

PM>Furthermore, Chrsitianity is the largest religion in the world; what more can be said?

Several things can be said!:

First off, Christ Himself said He had more to tell us for which we weren't ready, so He promosed to send the Spirit of Truth to lead us to All Truth! We Baha'is see Baha'u'llah, our Founder, as this Christ-promised Spirit of Truth--and hence, the Return of the Christ Spirit as the Bible promised!--with the new name that the Bible prophesied.

Also, while it is quite true that Christianity is indeed the largest religion in the world, it is also true 1) that the Baha'i Faith, after only a century and a half, is ALREADY the SECOND most widespread religion in the world, right after Christianity! :) [Source: Encyclopedia Britannica].

(How big was Christianity after 162 years?)

The present-day numbers are these:

RELIGION NUMBER OF LOCALITIES
--------- ----------------------
Christianity 140,000
Baha'i Faith 110,000
all other religions 90,000 or fewer.

And it is also true 2) that the Baha'i Faith is already the fastest-growing religion among those already established in more than 100 different countries! [Source: World Christian Encyclopedia]

Not too shabby for such a short time! :)

Oh--and did I mention that we Baha'is have adherents from over 2,100 different cultures and ethnic groups? We are in fact the largest and most culturally diverse single unified group of people on the planet!

So it seems to me that there's QUITE A BIT more to be said! . . . :)

Best,

Bruce
 
Hi again!

PM>I would consider the new testament as literal truth and not symbolic.

Oh, REALLY?!

Then I humbly suggest to you that you're going to have quite a rough time with Jesus' "Let the dead bury the dead!"

It is quite obvious to anyone who examines the Bible in detail that many, many passages simply don't make sense if taken literally, whereas when understood spiitually they make eminent sense!

Meaning no offense, thse are just the facts as I see them . . .

Regards,

Bruce
 
Like I said I take the bible literally, not scientifically ;) Everyone’s perception is different.
 
Just to chime in a bit, the Bible also warns against using miracles as the litmus test for the true Christ:

23At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect–if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time. (Matt 24)
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peace,
lunamoth
 
BruceDLimber said:
First off, Christ Himself said He had more to tell us for which we weren't ready, so He promosed to send the Spirit of Truth to lead us to All Truth! We Baha'is see Baha'u'llah, our Founder, as this Christ-promised Spirit of Truth--and hence, the Return of the Christ Spirit as the Bible promised!--with the new name that the Bible prophesied. Bruce
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Hi Bruce,

Christians might not find this particular line of reasoning very compelling as the Spirit of Truth, the Counselor, is believed to be the Holy Spirit and not the return of Christ by another name. In John 14 that the Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit is pretty clear.

15“If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever– 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”
22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”

23Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

25“All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid. (John 14)
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However, I wholly agree with you that the teachings of Baha'u'llah demonstrate a lot of the Christ Spirit.

peace,
lunamoth
 
Baha'i view of the Promised Advocate:

The Baha'i view is more along these lines:

The sixteenth Chapter of the Gospel of John verses 7 through 15 has a slightly different emphasis than the fourteenth chapter.

Here Jesus is saying

7 unless I go the Advocate will not come to you And when He comes He will show the world how wrong it was ....

12 I still have many things to say to you but they would be too much for you now.

13 But when the Spirit of Truth comes He will lead you to the complete truth, since He will not be speaking as from Himself but will say only what He has learnt

(in the KJV: "He shall not speak for Himself but what so ever He shall hear that shall He speak");

and He will tell you of the things to come.

14 He will glorify Me since all He tells you will be takn from what is Mine."

To me it's a little stretching it to say this refers only to the Holy Spirit in the conventional sense:

"He shall not speak for Himself but what so ever He shall hear that shall He speak".

Abdul-Baha referred to this in a Tablet that has only been provisionally translated as follows:

"That Comforter will not speak from Himself. That means He shall be aided by the hosts of divine Revelation. He shall declare and expound all that reaches His Blessed Hearing from the Kingdom of Glory.
   
Consider again, how clear it is. This means that that Comforting Spirit is a Person Who wilt be inspired with heavenly Inspirations and be the Repository of Lordly Revelations. Further, the Holy Spirit doth not have ears with which to hear."

Source:

http://bahai-library.com/provisionals/tafsir.ayat.yuhanna.html#fn13

Also in the more available "Some Answered Questions" Abdul-Baha says:

"In the Gospel of John, in speaking of the Promised One Who was to come after Christ, it is said in chapter 16, verses 12, 13: "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak."

Now consider carefully that from these words, "for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak," it is clear that the Spirit of truth is embodied in a Man Who has individuality, Who has ears to hear and a tongue to speak. In the same way the name "Spirit of God" is used in relation to Christ, as you speak of a light, meaning both the light and the lamp."

Source:

http://www.bahai-library.com/writings/abdulbaha/saq/25.html

- Art
 
Greetings! :)

I agree with what Arthra said.

And while I'm well aware that the conventional Christian of all this differs from the Baha'i view, it's worth noting that that interpretation fits with the Baha'i one, too, becuase EVERY Divine Messenger is invested with the Holy Spirit (this is what makes Him more than just another man), and so it is indeed true that the Spirit was sent again!

Piece of cake. :)

Bruce
 
Re: Baha'i view of the Promised Advocate:

arthra said:
The Baha'i view is more along these lines:

The sixteenth Chapter of the Gospel of John verses 7 through 15 has a slightly different emphasis than the fourteenth chapter.

Here Jesus is saying

7 unless I go the Advocate will not come to you And when He comes He will show the world how wrong it was ....

12 I still have many things to say to you but they would be too much for you now.

13 But when the Spirit of Truth comes He will lead you to the complete truth, since He will not be speaking as from Himself but will say only what He has learnt

(in the KJV: "He shall not speak for Himself but what so ever He shall hear that shall He speak");

and He will tell you of the things to come.

14 He will glorify Me since all He tells you will be takn from what is Mine."

To me it's a little stretching it to say this refers only to the Holy Spirit in the conventional sense:

"He shall not speak for Himself but what so ever He shall hear that shall He speak".

Abdul-Baha referred to this in a Tablet that has only been provisionally translated as follows:

"That Comforter will not speak from Himself. That means He shall be aided by the hosts of divine Revelation. He shall declare and expound all that reaches His Blessed Hearing from the Kingdom of Glory.
   
Consider again, how clear it is. This means that that Comforting Spirit is a Person Who wilt be inspired with heavenly Inspirations and be the Repository of Lordly Revelations. Further, the Holy Spirit doth not have ears with which to hear."

Source:

http://bahai-library.com/provisionals/tafsir.ayat.yuhanna.html#fn13

Also in the more available "Some Answered Questions" Abdul-Baha says:

"In the Gospel of John, in speaking of the Promised One Who was to come after Christ, it is said in chapter 16, verses 12, 13: "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak."

Now consider carefully that from these words, "for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak," it is clear that the Spirit of truth is embodied in a Man Who has individuality, Who has ears to hear and a tongue to speak. In the same way the name "Spirit of God" is used in relation to Christ, as you speak of a light, meaning both the light and the lamp."

Source:

http://www.bahai-library.com/writings/abdulbaha/saq/25.html

- Art
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Hi Art and Bruce,

I see a lot of time passed since you posted these replies! Apologies.

I would still say that looking at John 14 the promise of the Spirit is clearly meant to be immediate, not in the distant future.

1. The Counselor is to be with us forever.
2. He's not in the world, which neither sees nor knows Him.
3. He lives with us and will be in us.
4. He will not leave us as orphans.
5. What happened at Pentecost?
6. The Holy Spirit spoke on several occasions: i.e. 1 In the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. 2While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." 3So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off. (Acts 13)

I guess I don't see the Baha'i logic in that the resurrection of Christ must be considered a spiritual resurrection while the speaking of the Holy Spirit must be mean a flesh and blood body. Whose tongue was speaking in Acts 13 above?

peace,
lunamoth

Please let me say again, as I did above, I see a lot of the Christ Spirit in the teachings of Baha'u'llah. If the Baha'is are helping to build the Kingdom of God I say more power to you.

15“If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever– 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”
 
More on the Spirit from the writings of Paul, which probably predate the writings of Acts:

5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us. (Romans 5)

19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? (1 Corinthians 6)

peace,
lunamoth
 
I guess I should also add that of course I do not insist that you accept these understandings of the Holy Spirit, but these are Christian beliefs from the very earliest days of Christianity.

peace,
lunamoth
 
Hi, Luna!

I would simply point out that we in no way limit the Holy Spirit only to the appearance of Divine Messengers! It can (and does!) do other things all the time.

Also, please note that we don't say the Spirit has or needs a body. But that said, it is the bodies and souls of the Divine Messengers, Who have a human side, that are invested by the Spirit.

Regards,

Bruce
 
BruceDLimber said:
Hi, Luna!

I would simply point out that we in no way limit the Holy Spirit only to the appearance of Divine Messengers! It can (and does!) do other things all the time.

Also, please note that we don't say the Spirit has or needs a body. But that said, it is the bodies and souls of the Divine Messengers, Who have a human side, that are invested by the Spirit.

Regards,

Bruce
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Hi Bruce,

Thank you for your reply!

I know that the Baha'i teaching is that the Holy Spirit connects the Manifestations with us and God, and in a way this is very similar to the Christian view that the Spirit is Manifest Love, binding us to God and to each other. However, it seemed like you and Art were saying above that John 14 is a prophecy about Baha'u'llah.

peace,
lunamoth
 
Hi again! :)

L>t seemed like you and Art were saying above that John 14 is a prophecy about Baha'u'llah.

If you mean the "many mansions" verse, that's not specifically about Baha'u'llah, but does IMHO indicate that there have been (and will be) many Divine Messengers.

As to the various verses about "coming again" and the Comforter, these may apply to Baha'u'llah but are also applicable to other Messengers as well.

Certainly there are Jewish and Christian prophecies of Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith (in the Tanach and New Testament) that are far more specific than these are!

So I won't deny that they're indications of Baha'u'llah as that's clearly possible, but again, more definite passages exist.

Peace,

Bruce
 
lunamoth said:
Hi Bruce,

Thank you for your reply!

I know that the Baha'i teaching is that the Holy Spirit connects the Manifestations with us and God, and in a way this is very similar to the Christian view that the Spirit is Manifest Love, binding us to God and to each other. However, it seemed like you and Art were saying above that John 14 is a prophecy about Baha'u'llah.

peace,
lunamoth
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The Holy Spirit bathes creation.

In the Manifestations it is perfectly transmitted to us, purely reflected for our understanding.

"The Day Star of eternal Guidance beareth me witness: Had it been in my power, I would have, under no circumstances, consented to distinguish myself amongst men, for the Name I bear utterly disdaineth to associate itself with this generation whose tongues are sullied and whose hearts are false. And whenever I chose to hold my peace and be still, lo, the voice of the Holy Ghost, standing on my right hand, aroused me, and the Supreme Spirit appeared before my face, and Gabriel overshadowed me, and the Spirit of Glory stirred within my bosom, bidding me arise and break my silence. If your hearing be purged and your ears be attentive, ye will assuredly perceive that every limb of my body, nay all the atoms of my being, proclaim and bear witness to this call: "God, besides Whom is none other God, and He, 104 Whose beauty is now manifest, is the reflection of His glory unto all that are in heaven and on earth."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 103)

Regards.
Scott
 
Postmaster said:
wikipedia.org states that Bahá'u'lláh had 3 wives and also Babi's tried to assassinate the Persian king and because Bahá'u'lláh was one of the followers and although never had anything to do with it, they imprisoned him. To me this is extremely controversial and also found out that up 25 people claimed to the person the Bab said was coming. Also So, I find with this research I can not accept this religion. I was just wondering some of the views of people on this forum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%E1%27u%27ll%E1h%27s_family#Controversy_and_Confusion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%E1'u'll%E1h#Legitimacy_of_Bah.E1.27u.27ll.E1h.27s_claim

surely no way I can accpet such a religion and had no idea.
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How many false claimants asserted themselves in Judaism, Islam?
Shi'ih Islam would claim that the Imamship was hijacked by Abu Bakr and Uthman.

Most of the claimants to be "He WHom God Will Make Manifest" were doing so in opposition to Subh'i Azal (Mirza Yahya). Even Nabil, the author of the Dawnbreakers put forth a claim, but withdrew if when Baha`u'llah returned to Baghdad from Kurdistan.

Indeed, all but two or three withdrew their claims after Baha`u'llah had declared Himself.

As to the poisoning. It took place in Mirza Yahya's home. The doctor who treated Baha`u'llah said it had probably been smeared in the tea cup.
How would Baha`u'llah manage to smear poison in a teacup when only the household of Subhi Azal would have handled the teaset before serving?

Baha`u'llah nearly died. Subhi Azal was never treated for any poisoning and he claimed he had been poisoned.
Baha`u'llah's right hand was palsied for the rest of His life.

All because He could not keep tea cups straight? Let alone that He would never have handled the cups.

Regards,
Scott
 
wil said:
I need to say that I entrirely appreciate the Bahai.... despite what any may think, ocean is fabulous.

namaste,
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Yeah, it is. Ocean was started by a baha`i youth with programming experience. As far as I can tell he's never made a dime off it.

Regards,
Scott
 
kiwimac said:
The problem, Amy, is that the "Revelation of Baha'u'llah" was written by Adib Taherzadeh, a Baha'i. What Postmaster is looking for is neutral sources neither pro nor anti baha'i.

Its that whole independent search thing.

Kiwimac
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You won't find a lot that is "neutral".

E.G. Browne testifies to the immense personal charisma of Baha`u'llah, but supported Subh-i Azal. Why? Because Browne had an agenda - to create a constitutional government in Persia and baha`u'llah would have nothing to do with political causes. Subh-i Azal was happy to make promises to support Browne's ambitions for Persia.Abdu'l Baha and E.G. Browne were close acquaintances, and renewed their friendship when Abd'ul Baha visited London. Browne passed away shortly thereafter.

Browne is the closes thing to a neutral western source you are going to find.
Tolstoy accepted Baha`u'llah as a genuine prophet, but he did not write much about it. August Forel was a lover of Baha`u'llah and eventually accepted Baha`u'llah. There is a large volume of correspondence between Abd'ul Baha and August Forel.

If you want dispassion, you are unlikely to find passion - pro or con.

You can try here for a start: http://www.religioustolerance.org/var_rel.htm

Regards,
Scott
 
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