T
truthseeker
Guest
What is Mysticism in regard to Christianity?
bgruagach
eclectic Wiccan
truthseeker said:
What exactly are you asking? The question is so broad it is hard to figure out what you're hoping to hear.
What is your definition of mysticism? What do you mean by mysticism? If that was a bit more clear it would be easier to then discuss what it means in a Christian context.
Paladin
Purchased Bewilderment
I have always thoght of Christian Mysticism in the light of writers and theologians like Meister Eckhart, Swedenborg, Kant, and more recently, Thomas Merton, Emmet Fox, Joel Goldsmith et.al.
Knowing that The Christ is a state of conciousness embodied in the person of Jesus, and attainable by all of us is one of the basic precepts I personally adhere to. "No one comes unto the Father except through me" "I Am the way" and other statements of Jesus speaking from the Christ Conciousness, show us that in order to reach the lofty heights of God-Realization, we must raise ourselves in conciousness and in a sense "become" the Christ. This is a lofty ideal, but one which many mystics have as their goal.
This has conflicted with traditional Christian Theology in that they believe man is separate from God, and essentially from each other as well. Those of a more mystic bent believe otherwise. In many mystic teachings the idea that we are all one, part of the "Sonship" as it were, and are not in fact separated from the Divine Essence except in our own misguided and ignorant thinking. This is where, so goes the belief, that all suffering and so called evil emanates from.
Knowing that The Christ is a state of conciousness embodied in the person of Jesus, and attainable by all of us is one of the basic precepts I personally adhere to. "No one comes unto the Father except through me" "I Am the way" and other statements of Jesus speaking from the Christ Conciousness, show us that in order to reach the lofty heights of God-Realization, we must raise ourselves in conciousness and in a sense "become" the Christ. This is a lofty ideal, but one which many mystics have as their goal.
This has conflicted with traditional Christian Theology in that they believe man is separate from God, and essentially from each other as well. Those of a more mystic bent believe otherwise. In many mystic teachings the idea that we are all one, part of the "Sonship" as it were, and are not in fact separated from the Divine Essence except in our own misguided and ignorant thinking. This is where, so goes the belief, that all suffering and so called evil emanates from.
T
truthseeker
Guest
So you're called mystics because you believe that Jesus is not the only one who can achieve an annointing? I don't think that's hard to believe. What makes you Mystics versus Christians?
Okay. I'd better back it up and ask what a Mystic is.
Okay. I'd better back it up and ask what a Mystic is.
Paladin
Purchased Bewilderment
Essentially, a Mystic is one who seeks union with the Divine. There are many ideas about what the Divine is, but if you seek out the Mystics in any religion, you usually find a golden thread that can connect a Christian mystic, to a Sufi Mystic. I personally love the writings of Gibran, and Rumi. Many religions have their Mystic side as well as the Legalist side. I often wonder if it isn't personality type that leads one person to a legalist nature, and one towards the Mystic.
I don't think the Myers-Briggs type indicator is set up to tell the difference, though there may be some eduacated souls here that know.
I don't think the Myers-Briggs type indicator is set up to tell the difference, though there may be some eduacated souls here that know.
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Paladin said:
Interesting! Because we've had so many mystic path followers here recently I almost started a new thread on this very topic. I initially titled it something like Is Mysticism the Thread that Runs through all Religions, or something of the sort. Must have subconciously heard that 'thread' idea somewhere. I've also pondered the idea that some people lean toward mysticism and other toward legalism.
After reading a tiny bit of Merton (The Birds of Appetite) I got curious about St. John of the Cross. However, his writing is almost impenetrable to me. I gather that he wrote some poems describing his mystic experience and then long essays describing what the poems mean, such as Ascent of Mount Carmel. What I did glean is that this path, the contemplative, is quite laborious in its way, and also quite spiritually hazardous if you don't know what you are doing. I mean, it doesn't seem like something you do in your spare time.
Or do you see it more like Buddhist meditation practice, which is for everyone?I figure that I am God-gene challenged as my experiences of God are much more personal rather than transcendent. However, I can at least intellectually accept the knowledge that we are all one, even if I can't feel it. To me the experience is much more like being part of a huge family, rather than a merging.
lunamoth
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
I'm not sure if all Christian mystics would agree with this, but as a Christ-following Mystic, I pretty much do. I believe Jesus was a Savior in that he showed us that we distance ourselves from God. The Kingdom of Heaven is a spiritual reality right here, right now... and God is here with us as well. But we humans put up barriers, veils between ourselves and God, between our "reality" and ultimate reality. We convince ourselves that God is not right here, that there is separation and disconnect, and that we need all kinds of fancy belief systems and rituals to try to overcome this barrier. All this, when the barrier doesn't exist.Paladin said:
Jesus says, at one point, "Be ye, therefore, perfect, even as your Father, who is in heaven, is perfect." (Mt 5:48) Many mystics believe that it is, indeed, possible to overcome the false wall between ourselves and God, between our world and ultimate reality. To me, it's a bit like trying to attain enlightenment while still being a theist. You are trying to awaken to a full realization of not only God's presence, but also the presence of one's deeper spiritual self and one's place in ultimate reality.
As for oneness, I can only speak for myself. The more I have experienced the Divine, not only as a personal God but transcending these boundaries, the more I have also come to experience the sentience of all Creation, and the Divine spark in all of Creation that binds us all together. For me, the experience of this has not been so much that we are not also each unique, but rather that the Divine is manifest in the connections between us.
This is an exceptionally difficult thing for me to express, as it was an experience I had that defies expression in language, but here goes... How it came revealed to me is that all was simply unique consciousness, energy with a Divine spark and a mind, if you will... all was this manifestation- rocks, water, moss, trees, wind, light, myself... and it was as if each manifestation had a melody, a vibration of music. All together, the experience of the symphony of all these varied expressions of Creation, the Song itself- was the presence of the Divine. The Divine manifest in the beautiful ordering of each perfect expression of Creation. Hmmm... it probably makes no sense. It's very difficult to express, but there you have it. Belief that the Divine is much more than simply personal God, and that by seeking to drop the artifical wall that we think is between ourselves and the Kingdom of God, and our artificial ideas of what God is, we can attain a union with the Divine, and from this the love, peace, compassion, etc. of Christ.
For me, it is not that the Kingdom of God is within us, or outside of us, but that it is the connection of what is within with what is outside. Like a modern Druid explained- it is the connection of the internal wilderness with the external wilderness. In the connection, there is the Divine.
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
Yes, I think the heart of mysticism is the belief and goal of seeking union with the Divine. That the Divine is accessible to us, in a real sense- here and now. And that this can be an experience and not just an idea.Paladin said:
I would venture to say that it is partially personality type that leads one to a mystical path. I don't know a ton of mystics, but the few I do know tend to be INFP or INFJ on Myers-Briggs. These are very rare personality types that, according to the Myers-Briggs indicator, are prone to living in their own internal world, being creative thinkers, highly intuitive, etc.
Some anthropologists have speculated that these personality types were most frequently those of shamans, and it would make sense. INFPs and INFJs as children show many of the same characteristics that traditional societies regarded as indicators of a child that was a natural shaman, and was thus trained as such (such as living partially in a "fantasy" world, being very intuitive, easily slipping into altered states of concsiousness, etc.). Unfortunately, the modern U.S. doesn't have much of a tendency to recognize these characteristics as having value, and we tend to squash these children in our culture. The few mystics I know were either raised with a lot of independence and acceptance, or managed to transcend a long time of trying to "fit in" to regular society and religion.
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
Hey, luna-lunamoth said:What I did glean is that this path, the contemplative, is quite laborious in its way, and also quite spiritually hazardous if you don't know what you are doing. I mean, it doesn't seem like something you do in your spare time.
I figure that I am God-gene challenged as my experiences of God are much more personal rather than transcendent. However, I can at least intellectually accept the knowledge that we are all one, even if I can't feel it. To me the experience is much more like being part of a huge family, rather than a merging.
lunamoth
For me, at least, this path is my entire life. It cannot be something I do in my spare time, at least for me. Obviously, I have to work, do dishes, commute, etc. so it is not like I spend every moment reading sacred texts and whatnot. But my path is one in which I try to transform each moment into a meditation and experience of the Divine. So the question becomes how I transform, say, commuting into communing with the Divine and experiencing ultimate reality. It is a shift in consciousness, in perspective.
Of course, I'm not "there" yet. But I have realized that with practice, this gets easier and easier. The way I look at my surroundings and experiences changes. The way I experience the people, plants, animals around me changes. As my mind and heart open, I begin to spontaneously see glimmers of the Divine in a flower, the wind, my husband. I begin to spontaneously have moments of being in a state of harmony with ultimate reality, and of catching an intuitive understanding of where I ought to be, what action is best.
I don't know if it is a path for everyone. It is generally not comfortable. That is, much of the time I have sudden flashes of knowing that turn my world and ideas on their head. Perhaps once you reach a point of real enlightenment, you stabilize. It requires a lot of questioning one's assumptions, desires, attachments, and it can be painful to let go of what we think we "know" for what we do not yet recognize. For me, it's having to let go of all my expectations and worship God simply because the gift of even a moment of this life is worthy of praise. This means letting go of the constructions that permeate religion- an idea of what the afterlife is, how I'll experience God, that I'll ever see my friends and family again after this life, or that I'll even recognize myself after this life. Letting go of all of it for the search to experience what is, rather than what I want it to be.
It is also a path that many people don't understand and don't agree with. I am a somewhat private person, but when I do share even some of the more tame bits of my mystic experience, I have been told that it is crazy, that I am being deceived by Satan, that I am going to hell, that I am not a "real" Christian. Most people I know wouldn't want to give up their sense of belonging with other Christians and suffer the judgment that often goes with being a mystic.
Finally, I don't know how much this has to do with our personalities, like I said above. I've been asked by people before why I have these experiences, and why others don't. I have no answer; it is a mystery to me. It isn't a conscious choice for me. I've had a fundamentally different way of perceiving reality and God since I was a small child. As soon as I could talk, I talked about dreams and visions I had. I wept for people's suffering. I fundamentally couldn't understand why people harmed each other and the world around them.
I believed in the basic idea of string theory (of course minus the math and physics, but with all the implications of the multiverse, wormholes, and such) by the time I was five. I had many experiences as a child that I couldn't express until many years later, when I learned the words and concepts necessary. So I have no idea if it can be a choice to enter that path or not. I do know from experience that when I try to "shut off" my path, that is- to experience reality "normally," it doesn't work very well. I just seem hard-wired to perceive reality really differently than most. I have often experienced God the way you describe, Luna- as a personal deity, but added to this have increasingly been transcendent experiences, and restructuring of my perceptions of reality. I find both experiences can lead us to the love of Christ and the Kingdom of Heaven.
T
truthseeker
Guest
So then what would be so wrong about seeking connection with the Divine? Shouldn't that be everybody's duty? Isn't that what Christianity is all about anyway? What is a Legalist? Is all this the difference between religion and spiritually? Kind of like the difference between sugar and saccharin? Not to make fun or anything, but I thought that connecting with God is what Christianity is all about.
There are seven gifts that the Bible talks about. I think it's in Acts or Romans. Whatever. Anyway, I've identified my gift to be spiritual discernment. My teaching gift is in developement as my spiritual discernment is continuously developed. I believe that everyone doesn't have this gift and few people who have it realize it. My connection with God is stronger as I continue to come into a fuller awareness of my gift. Yes, I'm a sinner, but I thought God understood that and He's over it. Maybe there is a hierarchy in spirituality.
There are seven gifts that the Bible talks about. I think it's in Acts or Romans. Whatever. Anyway, I've identified my gift to be spiritual discernment. My teaching gift is in developement as my spiritual discernment is continuously developed. I believe that everyone doesn't have this gift and few people who have it realize it. My connection with God is stronger as I continue to come into a fuller awareness of my gift. Yes, I'm a sinner, but I thought God understood that and He's over it. Maybe there is a hierarchy in spirituality.
lunamoth
Episcopalian
truthseeker said:
Hi truthseeker,
Not sure if this was directed toward me or not...
I think you are right that we are all called to seek connection with God, that is what it's all about. I don't think that anyone who is not a Mystic is a legalist, sorry if it sounded that way. I don't consider myself a mystic at all, and I also do not focus on the laws as a way to connect with God. I focus on the love commandments, love God, love each other. Following the laws is an outcome of the love commandments, in my view, rather than the other way around. Anyway you go, Jesus is the gate, shepherd, channel, ladder, way in Christianity. My path is one of worship, prayer and serivce--practical all the way. As to hierarchy, hmmm, I don't know. I've heard such before but I'm not sure I agree. Maybe some are further down the path than others, but we all get there.
The gift of discernment is precious--you are blessed truthseeker.peace,
lunamoth
What you are describing is often called the "Mystic Body of Christ". This term is used in Catholic writings, as well as other Christian faiths, however is frowned upon by some "fundimental denomiations". I find it ironic that the 700 club has no problems showing faith healings and people "slain in the spirit" on TV, but the mention of mysticism sends them running for cover.truthseeker said:
The term "mystic" comes from "mystery", or unknown, such as having knowledge from unknown origins (can't be logically explained). Hmmm, sounds an awful lot like "Faith" - the belief in things as yet unseen and the hope for things that have yet to be...
Ever try explaining the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit to someone not familiar with Christianity? Or how about the mystery of the Holy Trinity? Or the part where Jesus confirms that men of faith will do even greater things in Jesus' name (miracles), than He displayed?
The mystery, or mystic of the body of Christ was taken out of of church teachings to the laymen during the middle ages, for a mirad of reasons (most were for mainaining an ignorant parish of followers, thus maintining control and power over them).
If one takes time to really study the mystic side of Christianity (for what it is), one may find a golden thread linking the Christian mystic to that of the Sufi mystic, or Druidic mystic, or Jewish mystic, etc...
All are seekers of pure truth.
v/r
Q
[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, san-serif]"Spiritual life is like living water that springs up from the very depths of your own spiritual experience. In spiritual life, everyone has to drink from his or her own well."
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T
truthseeker
Guest
Lunamoth and Quahom,
That was beautiful. My soul felt so blessed by your posts. It's so good to know that I am not alone in the understanding that I have - which Christianity doesn't seem to support. Not to say that the Bible, as I understand it, doesn't support those ideas, but when I talk to the average Christian I am told that I am leaning to my own understanding. I'm kind of rebellious in that I have been blessed in that understanding. Jesus does talk extensively about Faith. Faith is our connection with God. As I'm understanding this so far, Mysticism sounds like Faith but to those that don't understand that connection then it would be mystic.
Lunamoth, all gifts are precious. The true blessing is when we recognize them and use them to glorify God and raise the awareness of Love around us. Thank You.
So what's a legalist?
That was beautiful. My soul felt so blessed by your posts. It's so good to know that I am not alone in the understanding that I have - which Christianity doesn't seem to support. Not to say that the Bible, as I understand it, doesn't support those ideas, but when I talk to the average Christian I am told that I am leaning to my own understanding. I'm kind of rebellious in that I have been blessed in that understanding. Jesus does talk extensively about Faith. Faith is our connection with God. As I'm understanding this so far, Mysticism sounds like Faith but to those that don't understand that connection then it would be mystic.
Lunamoth, all gifts are precious. The true blessing is when we recognize them and use them to glorify God and raise the awareness of Love around us. Thank You.
So what's a legalist?
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Hi Truthseeker,
FYI, there is an interesting set of articles on Christian mysticism at Beliefnet right now:
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/153/story_15330_1.html
The opening article is about Teilhard de Chardin, a scientist and priest whom I know little about. However, this article has made me want to learn more (which is always a good thing ). Here's a taste (from the article about him, not his writings):
Since I havn't read very far I'm not sure how much in agreement I'll find myself with the sum of his work, but I also believe in 'radical Grace,' that the Spirit of Christ is working though many channels, some that look like Christianity in it's various expressions, some that might not.
More from the article:
By legalism I just mean focusing more on adherance to the law than on relationship with God. I'm a contradiction because I think that what we do in this life is more important than what we say we believe, but the two go hand in hand. Furthermore, what good is a relationship with God if it is only somehow good for yourself? I think the point is transformation so that for one's time in this world we live up to our spiritual potential in what we are able to give to the world (and what that looks like, in my opinion, is the compassion and justice given in the 'laws' of the Sermon on the Mount and the Two Greatest Commandments). Legalsim is not worse than mysticism, it's just different. Either leaning has potential for benefit or abuse, and I think most of us are composites of both.
lunamoth
FYI, there is an interesting set of articles on Christian mysticism at Beliefnet right now:
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/153/story_15330_1.html
The opening article is about Teilhard de Chardin, a scientist and priest whom I know little about. However, this article has made me want to learn more (which is always a good thing
). Here's a taste (from the article about him, not his writings):Since I havn't read very far I'm not sure how much in agreement I'll find myself with the sum of his work, but I also believe in 'radical Grace,' that the Spirit of Christ is working though many channels, some that look like Christianity in it's various expressions, some that might not.
More from the article:
By legalism I just mean focusing more on adherance to the law than on relationship with God. I'm a contradiction because I think that what we do in this life is more important than what we say we believe, but the two go hand in hand. Furthermore, what good is a relationship with God if it is only somehow good for yourself? I think the point is transformation so that for one's time in this world we live up to our spiritual potential in what we are able to give to the world (and what that looks like, in my opinion, is the compassion and justice given in the 'laws' of the Sermon on the Mount and the Two Greatest Commandments). Legalsim is not worse than mysticism, it's just different. Either leaning has potential for benefit or abuse, and I think most of us are composites of both.
lunamoth
Paladin
Purchased Bewilderment
lunamoth said:Hi Truthseeker,
FYI, there is an interesting set of articles on Christian mysticism at Beliefnet right now:
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/153/story_15330_1.html
The opening article is about Teilhard de Chardin, a scientist and priest whom I know little about. However, this article has made me want to learn more (which is always a good thing
Since I havn't read very far I'm not sure how much in agreement I'll find myself with the sum of his work, but I also believe in 'radical Grace,' that the Spirit of Christ is working though many channels, some that look like Christianity in it's various expressions, some that might not.
More from the article:
By legalism I just mean focusing more on adherance to the law than on relationship with God. I'm a contradiction because I think that what we do in this life is more important than what we say we believe, but the two go hand in hand. Furthermore, what good is a relationship with God if it is only somehow good for yourself? I think the point is transformation so that for one's time in this world we live up to our spiritual potential in what we are able to give to the world. Legalsim is not worse than mysticism, it's just different. Either leaning has potential for benefit or abuse, and I think most of us are composites of both.
lunamoth
A very good point Luna. I have heard Christian Mysticism referred to as a "Love and Law teaching" meaning that we we grow spiritually we might trancend the law, but it will always be part of our foundation so to speak.
Truthseeker, I see you live up to your name, and it seems you are in good company on this forum, there are so many beautiful souls that post here, and I am refreshed from the inside out to know this.
Mysticism and Gosticism have been referred to as "anything goes" kind of beliefs, yet nothing could be further from the truth. It is a rigorous path we follow, and loving dicipline is absolutely prerequisite. Periods of study, prayer, meditation, right action, right thought are the methods employed in our growth toward self-realization, and God-Realization.
What I have seen on this board reminds me that everyday people, so wonderful and beautiful in their ordinariness, are truly sages, monks and mystics. For this I am profoundly grateful!
Peace
Abogado del Diablo
Ferally Decent
The knowledge is not from unknown origins. Though the heart of Christian mysticism is definitely a Mystery it is not what is generally thought of as a "mystery" in Catholic parlance - i.e. it's not something that can't be explained and must be taken on faith. Rather it is something that can be known, but only to those whose eyes and ears are opened by the Spirit of the Lord. It's more akin to Paul's use of the term in Col 1:27.Quahom1 said:
And as for me, it isn't belief in things as yet unseen or hope for things that have yet to be, but quite the opposite in fact. It is experience of things as they are.
Abogado del Diablo
Ferally Decent
How so? When I think of "Celtic Christians" I think of dogged trinitarians (which I couldn't care less about) and a big emphasis on Mary.Quahom1 said:but now you are sounding like a Celtic Christian, which never set well with Romans in the first place...
just a thought.
v/r
Q
Though I am Celtic . . . and I like irritating Romans sometimes . . .
...oh you mean the same Celts who could not help but scribble anecdotes and baudy quips in the margines next to the scriptures they were studiously translating into several different languages during the 6th and 7th centuries?...those "trinitarians"?Abogado del Diablo said:How so? When I think of "Celtic Christians" I think of dogged trinitarians (which I couldn't care less about) and a big emphasis on Mary.
Though I am Celtic . . . and I like irritating Romans sometimes . . .
v/r
Q