Satan

[lunamoth]

Re: Do angels have free will?

Hi All,

I saw this in another forum (Cross and Flame, for those of you who know it), and thought it might add to this conversation.

from: http://www.beingjewish.com/basics/satan.html

Note, I removed several paragraphs to keep it from being too long, but I found the whole read quite interesting and helpful in understanding this view.

Does Judaism Believe in Satan?

...

Did you ever see the movie Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory? (story recap taken out, just keep in mind that before the tour of the chocolate factory all the children were tempted by a shady character named Slugworth to steal a gobstopper candy from Wonka) ... At the end of the tour, Charlie Bucket and his grandfather are the only ones left. Mr. Wonka says good bye to them, and tells them to leave. Upset, Charlie asks him for the lifetime supply of chocolate. But Mr. Wonka has somehow found out that Charlie drank the Fizzy drink, and therefore broke the rules. Charlie will not be getting a lifetime supply of chocolate either.

Wonka yells at him for drinking the Fuzzy drink, and Charlie feels bad. But his grandfather is angry, and he tells Charlie that they'll give Mr. Slugworth an Everlasting Gobstopper.

They are about to leave, when Charlie realizes that no matter how he feels, stealing and breaking rules is bad. So he goes to Mr. Wonka's desk and returns the Gobstopper to him.

Wonka sees that, and jumps up in delight! He tells Charlie that he has won! Charlie has no idea of what he's talking about. It seems that Wonka was looking to retire, and so he set up the contest to find an honest child he could train as his successor.

Then Wonka calls in Wilkinson, his aide. And Wilkinson is Slugworth! Slugworth was sent out to each of the children to test them! To see how they would respond. Anyone who either ate food he wasn't supposed to eat or brought a Gobstopper to Slugworth was dishonest, and would not become the successor. (Okay, the parable is not exact, but I think you get my point.) Notice, also, that Wonka himself gave each of the children a Gobstopper. So he himself set up the choice, and then gave them the opportunity to break the rule, using Wilkinsin to offer the temptation.

...

The Hebrew word "Satan" means "Hinderer." To hinder someone means to hold him back, to try to prevent him from doing something. G-d created the Hinderer to give us work to do in this world (see my article Why did G-d Create the World?). Satan is here to make things difficult for us, so we can overcome our evil temptations, and PASS the test. That is the purpose of Satan. Satan is an angel whose purpose has been determined by G-d.

Temptation is there to try and deter us. It gives us the ability to do the wrong thing. More importantly, it gives us the ability to look at evil and refuse to do it. By presenting us with the opportunity to do evil, it gives us the ability to choose between good and evil.

The ability to choose between good and evil is what gives us free will. (See my article On the Nature of Free Will.

So, in order for us to work for the good that Hashem wants to give us, the good of the World to Come, we need something to deter us. That is the ability to do evil. Satan is our Evil Inclination (Yetzer Hara). The Evil Inclination tries to prevent us from doing good, because Hashem has commanded the Evil Inclination to do that. Why? To give us free will.

Each of us every day fights with Satan. We all have temptations, throughout the day. But we, as the Children of Israel, have the power to overcome even angels, if we work at it. Therefore, the Talmud says that men are greater than angels, for we can fight with an angel (Satan) and win.

Satan is not, as the Christians think, a rebellious angel. How impossible! The angels are spiritual and holy, without any physical or unholy presence, and the presence of Hashem's holiness permeates them entirely. Angels, unlike humans, are therefore constantly and fully aware of Hashem's Presence everywhere. Could you stay dry in the ocean? An angel could not stop being holy, and can do no wrong. There is holiness everywhere in Creation, everywhere in the universe, and angels are made of the same thing. An angel could not stop serving G-d even if he tried.

Furthermore, humans have Satan to tempt us. Angels have no Satan to tempt them. Who would be Satan's Satan? An ultra-Satan?

The truth is that Satan has a job to do, just like every other angel. And angels have no free will. They do as Hashem commands them.

...

So now we have to revise our understanding of Satan. Satan is not a fallen angel. Satan is merely an angel with a dirty job. Satan does not have a rival kingdom. Satan is not in competition with G-d, and Satan does not want followers or worshipers. He's not even happy when people obey him and sin.

Satan is the angel who tempts us, and the angel who prosecutes us in Heaven. He is also the Angel of Death. The angel who tries to make us sin is the same angel who accuses us in the Heavenly Court, and the same angel who carries out the death sentence.

So, no, Satan does not wear a red suit, or carry a trident. Nor does he wear a business suit. Satan is a force of evil in the world that we must resist. Satan most often appears as a desire within you. Of course, there is no shortage of things in the world to tempt us to sin.

And Satan has many "helpers," many of whom don't even know they are helping him. A shady-looking character in the street walks over to you and offers to sell you some stolen property, for example. He's not Satan. He's someone who has not resisted Satan, and has decided to do evil. He's now trying to tempt you to sin, but not because he wants you to sin per se. He personally has something to gain from your sinning.

...
...
None of us are capable of destroying Satan. What we are expected and commanded to do is to gain the upper hand over our personal Satans. And Hashem helps us do this, constantly. The Talmud says that the Evil Inclination constantly attempts to destroy us spiritually, and Hashem constantly helps us and gives us the means with which to overcome our Evil Inclinations.

...

Hmm, guess it's still quite long. It seems to support the idea that at least in some circles of Jewish belief Satan does not have free will, nor is he fallen, but simply doing God's will. Interesting.

lunamoth

 

[didymus]

Re: Do angels have free will?

the term angel derives from angiras (Sanskrit) a divine spirit

in the Hebrew it is "malakh"

from the Persian "angaros", a courier

Greek angelos, meaning messenger

According to my source; A Dictionary of Angels by Gustav Davidson, The Hebrews drew their ideas of angels from the Persians and from the Babylonians during captivity. The 2 angels of OT, Michael and Gabriel, were in fact lifted from Babylonian mythology.

Angelology came into full flower during the 11th-13th centuries when the names of literally thousands of angels appeared, many created through the juggling of letters of the Hebrew alphabet or by the simple device of adding the suffix "el" to any word which lent itself to the manipulation.

 

[didymus]

Re: Do angels have free will?

Then there is satan, who in the OT is a great angel, one of the most glorious, certainly not evil and with no hint of his having fallen. He goes by his title of adversary (ha satan). It is only in Christian and post biblical Jewish writings that ha-satan of the OT is turned into an evil spirit.

 

[Quahom1]

Re: Do angels have free will?

Didymus.

Do you really believe that rigamarole?

 

[Bandit]

Re: Do angels have free will?

Yes, I too, agree that angels are created beings, not just thought or metaphor. But how do you explain Paul's question in 1 Cor 6:3? "Know ye not that we shall judge angels?" (KJV) Even though we (including Jesus) are made "a little lower than the angels." (Ps 8:5 ; Heb 2:7,9)

This appears to mean that the angels, too, shall be judged at the 2nd coming, does it not? With Jesus at the Right Hand of the Father...(Mark 16:19 ; Luke 22:69 ; Acts 7:56 ; Rom 8:34 ; Colossians 3:1 ; Heb 12:2 ; 1 Pet 3:22)

May I ask your references for the belief that the angels have been judged prior to the creation? I would like to study this further...

And thank you for the welcome, as I look forward to having many discussions on this board : )

actually i am seeing this the same as you are endtimes. I cant say for sure the angels are judged at the second coming, but it seems to me it happens at the second judgment. what i mean by judgment- it has not literally taken place yet, but the scripture tells us that it will, so kind of like God being all knowing, just kind of tells us what the judgment is & how it all wraps up. it is in the OT & in the NT, not just in one place.

it also tells us in verse 2, that the Saints shall judge the world (people) too & yes i believe that we will. i think Paul was trying to tell us how precious we are to the Lord & how much glory we will share with Him in eternity. We are actually better than angels in Gods eyes. There is place where it talks about angels desiring to "LOOK IN' & see what God is doing in our lives.

I know Jesus was made lower than angels for suffering & for the crowning of glory. Then later in Hebrews we learn that Jesus by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than angels & was made better than them. It is neat.

I have been wanting to do a nice study on angels for quite awhile. But it is kind of hard sometimes to 'expound' on things, because there are so many different beliefs & things just go into argument or they kind of go nowhere. I guess that is expected when some do not believe in angels.

Still not sure why this is in Mysticism, but I guess it does not matter where the topic is located.

Another part of it I find interesting is, entertaining angels unaware. Angels are a big topic.

anytime, endtimes . what you are seeing all looks good to me.

 

[didymus]

Re: Do angels have free will?

Q, What is it that you don't believe? I have no reason not to accept it as legitimate. Mind you I don't hold fast to most things as absolute truth since the material being discusesed is thousands of years old and has been passed on through multiple cultural filters, influences, translations and transliterations. Can you counter it? Let's here your side.

 

[Quahom1]

Re: Do angels have free will?

Q, What is it that you don't believe? I have no reason not to accept it as legitimate. Mind you I don't hold fast to most things as absolute truth since the material being discusesed is thousands of years old and has been passed on through multiple cultural filters, influences, translations and transliterations. Can you counter it? Let's here your side.

I guess I should have made clear that was a rhetorical question. Sorry Did.

You have your opinion, and I have mine. Michael refused to speak harshly of Lucifer/Satan and I follow suit. But I do not wish his company either...in fact, I'd rather be totally alone.

Once again, I'm sorry for not being clear.

v/r

Q

 

[didymus]

Re: Do angels have free will?

I also have a very evil and negative image of satan. This is what I've heard and been taught about it throughout my life. I don't wish his company either nor do I wish to get to know him personally. I do, however, find the concept of satan from early traditions very thought provoking. In a way it makes sense to me that the notion of satan has grown and grown to astronomical proportions. Maybe its all mythological anyway.

 

[path_of_one]

Re: Do angels have free will?

Just an idea- what if Satan is a metaphor for our own evil side? What if we are the biggest enemy of God? What if Satan is, indeed, the ruler of this world because we allow him to be?

Satan as adversary because we were created with the capacity to be tested, and to have free will and fail. Satan as the metaphor for all the evil of the world. After all, aside from the suffering we humans cause one another, what evil is there in the world? My own experience is that at some point I came to understand natural cycles of death, natural disasters, etc. as not evil, but just nature. There are spiritual lessons in such. What is evil in the world is our own making- war, poverty, environmental destruction...

Is Satan really responsible? Or are we? By blaming Satan and demons, don't we abdicate some of our responsibility for the world being a mess? I've seen people kind of give up trying to change anything in the world, because they believe it's the End Times and Satan is ruler over all, so why bother? I find that a very dangerous and depressing place in which to be...

 

[Bandit]

Re: Do angels have free will?

Just an idea- what if Satan is a metaphor for our own evil side? What if we are the biggest enemy of God? What if Satan is, indeed, the ruler of this world because we allow him to be?

Satan as adversary because we were created with the capacity to be tested, and to have free will and fail. Satan as the metaphor for all the evil of the world. After all, aside from the suffering we humans cause one another, what evil is there in the world? My own experience is that at some point I came to understand natural cycles of death, natural disasters, etc. as not evil, but just nature. There are spiritual lessons in such. What is evil in the world is our own making- war, poverty, environmental destruction...

Is Satan really responsible? Or are we? By blaming Satan and demons, don't we abdicate some of our responsibility for the world being a mess? I've seen people kind of give up trying to change anything in the world, because they believe it's the End Times and Satan is ruler over all, so why bother? I find that a very dangerous and depressing place in which to be...

if you want to see it that way path of one, that is up to you. I see many problems with that. Then you have Jesus casting out metaphors, metaphors going into swine, metaphors slicing up people, & God decieveing people & Michael & Gabriel..before you know it, the whole bible turns into a metaphor..the scripture just wont allow it all the way through. Jesus was in the widerness tempted by satan, not a metaphor.

God destroying an unrepented metaphor?

I have witnessed too many things.
I hear the church of satan is growing very fast. I suppose one could visit & see how much of a metaphor is going on inside, but I dont reccomend it.

I dont blame satan, I blame people who fall for the father of lies & suck him up without realizing it... Appearing as an angel of light. I agree with you, many people allow satan to be the ruler & there is enmity there.

I know it is just an idea, so, to each there own.

 

[dauer]

Re: Do angels have free will?

church of satan tends to view satan metaphorically.

 

[Bandit]

Re: Do angels have free will?

church of satan tends to view satan metaphorically.

hmmm, that would be a typical claim. that is not what i see & hear

 

[dauer]

Re: Do angels have free will?

From the faq by magister Matt G. Paradise of Church of Satan.

What is Satanism?

Satanism, the first carnal religion in human history, was codified and established by Anton Szandor LaVey (1930-1997) with the founding of the Church of Satan in 1966 C.E. (Year One). It is a religion and a philosophy based on man as he really is: a carnal being free from the fiction that is spirituality and one who champions total responsibility, pragmatism, and the here-and-now. ...

Satanism has been referred to as an "unreligion" in the sense that it does not subscribe to the notion of an anthropomorphic deity and, by extension, some being who must be worshiped, its most common misconception. Others say that Satanism is challenging popular notions of how 'religion' is defined, not content with the dictates of Judeo-Christian strictures. Both are valid opinions. But for those who feel that deity worship and religion must be and always have been inextricably bound, it should be noted that Satanism's lack of deity belief and deity worship is not singular as Buddhism, Confucianism, and Taoism (all considered religions the world over) also share this viewpoint. Also, the concept of a literal "Satan" which infiltrates people's lives and influences their decisionmaking is exclusively Christian, and decidedly not Satanic.
...

Who is Satan?

In Satanism, Satan is an archetype, a representation of certain qualities that the Satanist embodies including rational self-interest, avoidance of oppressive mentalities, the questioning of all, and a perseverance towards success and human potential. The Satanic Bible encapsulates this iconography in The Nine Satanic Statements, which are thus:

1) Satan represents indulgence, instead of abstinence!
2) Satan represents vital existence, instead of spiritual pipe dreams!
3) Satan represents undefiled wisdom, instead of hypocritical self-deceit!
4) Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates!
5) Satan represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek!
6) Satan represents responsibility to the responsible, instead of concern for psychic vampires!
7) Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his divine spiritual and intellectual development, has become the most vicious animal of all!
8) Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!
9) Satan has been the best friend the church has ever had, as he has kept it in business all these years!

Inherently, the Satanic archetype is far more diverse than the limited Christian interpretation -- the name/word is notably pre-Christian: from the Hebrew, meaning "adversary", "opposer" or "one who questions" (and the Jewish 'Satan' differs sharply from the Christian one in many ways). Even its etymology is traced back through sources previous to its Hebrew version, from Shaitan (Persian) all the way back to Set (Egyptian). Satanism, to one degree or another, embraces additional cultural and religious ideas, concepts and imagery such as those of ancient Rome and ancient Greece, Zoroasterism, Asatru, Aztec, Hindu and a multitude of others. We also find the Satanic persona emanating from some or all of the literary works of Milton, Nietzsche, Mencken, Maugham, Twain, Rand, Jung, and many more.
...
What is the difference between Satanism and devil worship?

Satanism and devil worship are two distinctly different animals. Devil worship is what it is: the worship of an external deity (in this case, a "devil"), much as it could be labeled inverse Christianity -- that is, confining yourself to the Christian religion and overall model, but merely choosing the "bad guy" in their Bible instead of the purportedly central character. The Satan in Satanism is an archetype, one many know by name and is relative to the culture. Some Satanists choose different aspects of this archetype, depending on geography or just plain aesthetics, but the same characteristics still hold true. It would make little sense for us to claim to embody the archetypal qualities of Satan (rebellion, rational self-interest, carnality, etc.) on one hand, and then attempt to worship an anthropomorphic Satan on the other. In laymen's terms, it's hardly rebellious to worship a figure that represents rebellion. The Satanist finds unproductive and one-sided idol worship to be draining and useless (not to mention hypocritical). Much of this is aptly mentioned in The Satanic Bible and the other books listed in the Satanism section of the Not Like Most website.
...
If you don't believe in an actual Satan, then why do you say 'Hail Satan' in texts and rituals?

In addition to what is stated before considering how we contextualize Satan, this is my take on this fairly common question:

1) "Hail Satan!" (the exclamation point is optional, though preferred) is often another way of saying "Hail Me!" Since we Satanists embody the qualities of the archetype of Satan, it stands to reason that the phrase is both apropos and analogous. You very well could say "Hail Me!" instead, but keep in mind this...

2) "Hail Satan!" is also a salute to our achievements (both collective and, more importantly, individual), ethics, and heritage. It is a statement of pride in defiance of a polyglot, egalitarian, and ignorant way of life represented by the nauseating Christ ethos and its followers. If we have signed any pact with Satan, it is this.

http://www.purgingtalon.com/sth/resources.html

 

[Bandit]

Re: Do angels have free will?

i am thinking you might want to search a little farther but you are on track.

 

[iBrian]

Re: Do angels have free will?

This is turning into an interesting discussion on the topic of Satan and perceptions of Satan in itself - I've therefore split the above from the Angels thread, and have kept it in the Belief and Spirituality section for a free exchange between different backgrounds.

 

[path_of_one]

I want to make it clear that I do not necessarily think that there are no evil spiritual entities, but rather that the OT scriptures do not clearly support a Satan with free will that is a fallen angel. I've read commentaries by Rabbis on the scriptures that Christians often quote as evidence of the Christian Satan, and it is very illuminating on the subject. Furthermore, the Satan we have in our minds today is also a result of Christianity expanding into Pagan Europe and demonizing their fertility gods such as Pan and Cerrunos (ever wonder why our image of Satan has horns and goat legs?). There's a lot more to Satan than just the modern Christian ideas, is what I'm getting at.

Now, is the Jewish concept that God is all-powerful and there is no evil demi-god-like entity battling Him right? Or is the modern Christian idea of a spiritual battle right? Or is it something different all together?

I would propose this, but of course to each his/her own:
* There is a Satan in the Jewish sense of an angel of adversary/temptation, that is here not to rule but to test us in our moral and spiritual fibre, because that allows spiritual growth.
* Jesus was really tempted by Satan.
* There are really evil spiritual entities with free will, but these are not angels. They can really attack people. It's up to the reader if they want to believe that Jesus was curing insanity and physical illnesses (which during his time was believed to be caused by demons, though we know now that it is chemical imbalances and other scientific causes) or driving out literal demons. Both are miracles.
* There may be a spiritual battle, but from what I've seen it's within each entity created with free will and is only on cosmic proportions because so many people are not effectively battling their own metaphoric demons, as it were. I think it's quite possible non-corporeal spirit entities also face this free will problem and some cave in just as we do. Cross-culturally, many many cultures of all kinds of religions believe in nature spirits, spirits from other realities, demons, ancestor spirits, etc. and these tend to be very much like humans in their capacity for doing good vs. evil.
* Christianity latched onto the Jewish idea of Satan and it combined with dualist religions like Zoroastrianism, and Satan was considered fallen and elevated to demi-god like status.
* As Christianity spread into Pagan areas, they adopted Pagan gods and goddesses into the religion (this is documented). Some, like Pan and Cerrunos, became demonized as an evil demi-god like Satan. Others, like Brighid, became saints and are still prayed to and honored today.
* Now, in the U.S., we are quite unaware of the Pagan origins of a lot of Christian belief and practice, because we are divorced from the place and indigenous religions of Europe. People may not know that there is a saint who was a dog, or that some saints were goddesses and gods, or that the Virgin Mary has replaced the "Queen of Heaven" or "Great Mother" goddesses in much of the world, or that Satan looks an awful lot like Pan.
* If Satan is, indeed, like he was in the Jewish Torah, are we not doing ourselves a great disservice by making him so powerful in our minds? Do we not give up some of our responsibility to change the world, chalking it up to Satanic influence but forgetting humans can overcome him?

By the way, the Church of Satan is very small in comparison to many other religions that are growing at an enormous rate, like neo-Paganism faiths. The CoS does indeed view Satan as a metaphor (completely) and members worship themselves, not any deity. The CoS was primarily a movement against Christian values they perceived to be undesirable (such as non-violence passivity towards enemies), and they adopted the symbol of Satan to make a statement. The CoS is also vehemently against Wicca and other positive, other-centered neo-Pagan magical faiths. The First Church of Satan, however, is an offshoot that does indeed worship Satan as a deity. They are vehemently against not only Christianity, but also (at least equally) the Church of Satan.

The interaction of these groups and their respective belief systems are a lot more complicated than most Christians realize. No offense, it's completely understandable because generally we are centered on our own religion and the very term "Church of Satan" means something particular to us. Indeed, Anton LaVey (the founder of CoS) counted on it. In interviews he said his greatest fear was that Christians would stop fearing him and his church, and they would become just one more organized religion. He created the symbols in the church specifically to invoke fear and disgust in Christian churches, and to gain attention from them. He's dead now, and us Christians are still giving him what he wants (and what his church wants) by thinking they are really a powerful movement and worshipping Satan...

I'm not saying Satan is a metaphor, or that there are no evil spirit entities, but rather that we may be lumping things we should be splitting, and recognize that an awful lot of the evil on this earth is because of us.

 

[earl]

I want to make it clear that I do not necessarily think that there are no evil spiritual entities, but rather that the OT scriptures do not clearly support a Satan with free will that is a fallen angel. I've read commentaries by Rabbis on the scriptures that Christians often quote as evidence of the Christian Satan, and it is very illuminating on the subject. Furthermore, the Satan we have in our minds today is also a result of Christianity expanding into Pagan Europe and demonizing their fertility gods such as Pan and Cerrunos (ever wonder why our image of Satan has horns and goat legs?). There's a lot more to Satan than just the modern Christian ideas, is what I'm getting at.

Now, is the Jewish concept that God is all-powerful and there is no evil demi-god-like entity battling Him right? Or is the modern Christian idea of a spiritual battle right? Or is it something different all together?

I would propose this, but of course to each his/her own:
* There is a Satan in the Jewish sense of an angel of adversary/temptation, that is here not to rule but to test us in our moral and spiritual fibre, because that allows spiritual growth.
* Jesus was really tempted by Satan.
* There are really evil spiritual entities with free will, but these are not angels. They can really attack people. It's up to the reader if they want to believe that Jesus was curing insanity and physical illnesses (which during his time was believed to be caused by demons, though we know now that it is chemical imbalances and other scientific causes) or driving out literal demons. Both are miracles.
* There may be a spiritual battle, but from what I've seen it's within each entity created with free will and is only on cosmic proportions because so many people are not effectively battling their own metaphoric demons, as it were. I think it's quite possible non-corporeal spirit entities also face this free will problem and some cave in just as we do. Cross-culturally, many many cultures of all kinds of religions believe in nature spirits, spirits from other realities, demons, ancestor spirits, etc. and these tend to be very much like humans in their capacity for doing good vs. evil.
* Christianity latched onto the Jewish idea of Satan and it combined with dualist religions like Zoroastrianism, and Satan was considered fallen and elevated to demi-god like status.
* As Christianity spread into Pagan areas, they adopted Pagan gods and goddesses into the religion (this is documented). Some, like Pan and Cerrunos, became demonized as an evil demi-god like Satan. Others, like Brighid, became saints and are still prayed to and honored today.
* Now, in the U.S., we are quite unaware of the Pagan origins of a lot of Christian belief and practice, because we are divorced from the place and indigenous religions of Europe. People may not know that there is a saint who was a dog, or that some saints were goddesses and gods, or that the Virgin Mary has replaced the "Queen of Heaven" or "Great Mother" goddesses in much of the world, or that Satan looks an awful lot like Pan.
* If Satan is, indeed, like he was in the Jewish Torah, are we not doing ourselves a great disservice by making him so powerful in our minds? Do we not give up some of our responsibility to change the world, chalking it up to Satanic influence but forgetting humans can overcome him?

By the way, the Church of Satan is very small in comparison to many other religions that are growing at an enormous rate, like neo-Paganism faiths. The CoS does indeed view Satan as a metaphor (completely) and members worship themselves, not any deity. The CoS was primarily a movement against Christian values they perceived to be undesirable (such as non-violence passivity towards enemies), and they adopted the symbol of Satan to make a statement. The CoS is also vehemently against Wicca and other positive, other-centered neo-Pagan magical faiths. The First Church of Satan, however, is an offshoot that does indeed worship Satan as a deity. They are vehemently against not only Christianity, but also (at least equally) the Church of Satan.

The interaction of these groups and their respective belief systems are a lot more complicated than most Christians realize. No offense, it's completely understandable because generally we are centered on our own religion and the very term "Church of Satan" means something particular to us. Indeed, Anton LaVey (the founder of CoS) counted on it. In interviews he said his greatest fear was that Christians would stop fearing him and his church, and they would become just one more organized religion. He created the symbols in the church specifically to invoke fear and disgust in Christian churches, and to gain attention from them. He's dead now, and us Christians are still giving him what he wants (and what his church wants) by thinking they are really a powerful movement and worshipping Satan...

I'm not saying Satan is a metaphor, or that there are no evil spirit entities, but rather that we may be lumping things we should be splitting, and recognize that an awful lot of the evil on this earth is because of us.

I see it this way as well. the "desert fathers" of the early Christian church always framed their spiritual journey in terms of demons & spiritual warfare as well, but often in doing so were speaking of their internal battle with their "passions."

"Abba Poemen said of Abba John the Dwarf that he had prayed to God to take his paasions away from him so that he might become free from care. He went and told an old man this; 'I find myself in peace, without an enemy,' he said. The old man said to him, 'Go beseech God to stir up warfare so that you may regain the affliction and humility that you used to have, for it is by warfare that the soul makes progress.' So, he besought God and when warefare came, he no longer prayed that it might be taken away, but said, 'Lord, give me strength for the fight.'"

As for me, unfortunately, don't think i'll ever have to worry re running out of afflictions and personal "demons-" St. Anthony of the Desert likewise spoke of how he saw that until his last breath he had to always deal with them. Take care, Earl

 

[ambassador]

Satan is the Greatest deciever. Here is an excert from a book written by Joe crews based on the Bible. Anyone interested in reading it here is the link: http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/Read_Media.asp?ID=657​

​

!Remember he is the author of confusion​

"How does Satan orchestrate his program to make even the most religious people sin? Before we look at his two most effective strategies, we need to understand that we are dealing with the greatest counterfeiter who ever lived. As the archdeceiver he often employs a mixture of good and evil to accomplish his ends. He doesn't even mind utilizing the Scriptures if it can serve to achieve an ultimate end.

Satan did not write the Bible, but he was looking over the shoulders of the men who did, memorizing every bit of it. And he has often quoted texts, as he did to Jesus in the wilderness of temptation. In that instance he actually quoted the Psalmist correctly that angels would protect from even dashing a foot against a stone. But take note that he misapplied the text by urging Jesus to presumptuously leap from the pinnacle and trust the angels to save Him. This clever ploy of distorting Scripture forms the basis of the two special tricks which Satan uses to make Christians disobey God's law. The first argument goes like this: Since the Bible says "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life," the most important thing in order to be saved is to obey the law. Revelation 22:14. If we can just do that well enough, in every detail, we will qualify for eternal life."

 

[paradisaic]

Ah, yes, interesting. But if Evil Inclination were truly what Satan is, how would you explain his taking over the body of a serpent? Truly, a serpent, unendowed with reason and wit, wouldn't be able to harbor Evil Inclination.

 

[dauer]

If a serpent is unendowed with reason and wit, how does that inhibit having an evil inclination?