The Immaculate Conception

I have read someplace that it was a linguistic mistranslation. Virgin is incorrect; what was meant was "a young woman"..........
 
JJM said:
Wow there are many things to get at here. I'll start with this:



You say that Jesus must not be God because He was tempted and God can't be tempted. Is that correct? Ok this is my take on it. Jesus has two natures one is Human and one is Divine. So it was Jesus's human Nature that was tempted not his Divine one. For this reason Christ also has two wills but those wills never disagree.



Now to whether Mary was saved by Calvary. God is outside time The Grace which He bestowed upon Mary, for the greater glory and dignity of Jesus Christ and to fulfill His Goal of fulfilling the Old Testament, still came from Calvary. However she was preserved from Original sin by that Grace rather than Saved from it.



Now to the concept of Original Sin. Original Sin is the Sinful nature and the stain of that sinful nature that is with in us as descendants of Eve. Adam and Eve were created without Original Sin. They didn't have Sinfulness inside them they couldn't be tempted by from with in but they could be tempted from outside aka the snake. When they took that apple into their body they also took the Original sin into themselves and that sin flesh nature. So Christ could have been tempted without Original Sin. And Mary could have as well but she could still have sinned just as Eve did but she didn't. Jesus could have also, although I think existence would have ceased to be if he did but that is beside the point.



Finally I guess you are right it does pretty much hinge on whether or not Jesus is actually God. Most Orthodox Christianity rests on that. Anyway sorry this is kind of all over the place but so are my thoughts right now .
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Right, because sin is disobedience & Jesus was obedient even to the death of the cross. Adam & Eve were also tempted w/o original sin like you say. if you think about it, even Adam could have qualified for the cross before he transgressed if you see it like that because he too was made sinless. I am thinking maybe we can do a (one on one) some day if CR lets us, & turn over all the stones together & see what we come up with together if you want to. Like maybe this fall or winter. Some of the stuff you say I see the same possiblities. It is a big mystery & that is why it goes all over the place.

Those two wills you mention in Jesus did disagree in one place, because Jesus said not my will but thine be done. Jesus asked God for the cup (cross) to pass him if it were possible, so Jesus did have a will of his own outside of God. The reason they end up agreeing is because Jesus was obedient to the will of God, being full of the Holy Ghost & that is how we want to be too.

You see Jesus as God from birth. I see him as God (so to speak) from this side of Jordan.

I just dont think I should try to get into it too much under this topic. Then we have different trinitarian views, the jehova witness view, the Jesus only view & some others & I dont want to go all the rounds with that many views at once because it gets confusing & repetitive. Just so you know, I do believe Jesus is God in many ways, but not the same way that has been passed down over the centuries.

But no need to worry. What I believe is not written in any supplements to the bible or literature or imposed on as a doctrine the same way other godhead beliefs are. It is just kind of there & i have learned to accept being the minority. :)
 
PistisSophia said:
I have read someplace that it was a linguistic mistranslation. Virgin is incorrect; what was meant was "a young woman"..........
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I think they are trying to stay on course with the birth of Mary & not so much Jesus, but it is kind of hard when she was the mother.

If you are trying to convince some that Mary was not a virgin & that a young woman could no way possibly ever be a virgin, it wont work. I have already been down that & I believe she was a young woman & a virgin when she concieved.

Welcome to CR PistisSophia & have fun here.:)
 
A couple of questions I have came up with from following this thread Id like to ask for clarification.
JJM said:
It also stems from Mary's role as New Eve. As the old Eve was created without sin and chose to disobey God the new Eve Mary was created without sin and Chose to accept the will if God (the annunciation).
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If Jesus is the "new" Adam then wouldn't the Church be the "new" Eve? After all Eve was Adam's wife not his morther.


JJM said:
I think this needs to be asked for the purposes of this discussion: is it possible to die without having the stain of Original Sin? For Jesus died, so if the answer to that question is no then Jesus wasn't sinless.
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Well when Adam sinned it caused the fall of mankind. And we have been told that no man was without sin cause all men fall short of the glory of God..But Jesus was God so he could meet the glory of God and thus he died sinless and washed away the penalty for the rest of us.
 
I think this needs to be asked for the purposes of this discussion: is it possible to die without having the stain of Original Sin? For Jesus died, so if the answer to that question is no then Jesus wasn't sinless.
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2 Cor. 5:21 "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.


Jesus was sinless. On the cross He took the sins of the world on Him. When He died He said "It is finished" The sins were gone.

John 19:28-30 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, "I thirst!" Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.




 
Dor said:
A couple of questions I have came up with from following this thread Id like to ask for clarification.
If Jesus is the "new" Adam then wouldn't the Church be the "new" Eve? After all Eve was Adam's wife not his morther.
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"By reason of the gift and role of her divine motherhood, by which she is united with her Son, the Redeemer, and with her unique graces and functions, the Blessed Virgin is also intimately united to the Church. As St. Ambrose taught, the Mother of God is a type of the Church in the order of faith, charity, and perfect union with Christ.[18] For in the mystery of the Church, which is itself rightly called mother and virgin, the Blessed Virgin stands out in eminent and singular fashion as exemplar both of virgin and mother.[19] Through her faith and obedience she gave birth on earth to the very Son of the Father, not through the knowledge of man but by the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit, in the manner of a new Eve who placed her faith, not in the serpent of old but in God's messenger without wavering in doubt. The Son whom she brought forth is he whom God placed as the first born among many brethren (Rom. 8:29), that is, the faithful, in whose generation and formation she cooperates with a mother's love. "
-Lumen Gentium Vatican Council II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, 21 November 1964


Dor said:
Well when Adam sinned it caused the fall of mankind. And we have been told that no man was without sin cause all men fall short of the glory of God..But Jesus was God so he could meet the glory of God and thus he died sinless and washed away the penalty for the rest of us.
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I agree with your second sentence. My answer to the question I asked is yes, but if Bandit thought no then we wouldn't have the same conversation as if he agreed with me. So I wished to clarify. The question was really directed at him because I wanted his opinion not because I actually didn’t think I knew the answer. As for your first sentence Romans 5:14 "But death reigned from Adam unto Moses, even over them also who have not sinned, after the similitude of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come." Now Bandit seems to think that this Death is the Second death. I think it is the first, for we will all be resurrected. That is the difference between our ideas that lead to the others, I think (however when I asked this I didn't know that). So my argument is the curse of sin isn't the sin itself. Because Jesus could have died without Original Sin then Death could reign over Mary with out Original Sin. However he thinks Jesus had Original Sin and Wasn’t God until he was Baptized (or something similar to that) However I wasn’t expecting that answer so my point kind of fell through.
 
JJM said:
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I agree with your second sentence. My answer to the question I asked is yes, but if Bandit thought no then we wouldn't have the same conversation as if he agreed with me. So I wished to clarify. The question was really directed at him because I wanted his opinion not because I actually didn’t think I knew the answer. As for your first sentence Romans 5:14 "But death reigned from Adam unto Moses, even over them also who have not sinned,after the similitude of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come." Now Bandit seems to think that this Death is the Second death. I think it is the first, for we will all be resurrected. That is the difference between our ideas that lead to the others, I think (however when I asked this I didn't know that). So my argument is the curse of sin isn't the sin itself. Because Jesus could have died without Original Sin then Death could reign over Mary with out Original Sin. However he thinks Jesus had Original Sin and Wasn’t God until he was Baptized (or something similar to that) However I wasn’t expecting that answer so my point kind of fell through.
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i think this is refering to the first death too JJM, there was no second death until after Jesus came to redeem us from the first death... but the other things you mention are more the way I see it, because i believe flesh begets flesh & not spirit of God & then later God begets our spirit.
You will most likely never meet very many like me the way I believe about it all the way through. I am thrilled that you actually understand what I am trying to say, because most cant even acknowledge what I am trying to say.:)
 
No disrepect here, but nothing turns me off more than the insistence of there being a voodoo type of occurrence to bring forth an "annointed one"...
 
PistisSophia said:
No disrepect here, but nothing turns me off more than the insistence of there being a voodoo type of occurrence to bring forth an "annointed one"...
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i do not believe there was a vood doo occurence to bring forth Jesus & I dont think the other Christians here do either. and I can't say that Jesus was just AN annointed one...as in the same as in any other annointed one.

That is all everyone does here is share with others what we believe.
So what do you believe about the conception of Jesus and/or Mary, PistisSophia?
 
PistisSophia said:
No disrepect here, but nothing turns me off more than the insistence of there being a voodoo type of occurrence to bring forth an "annointed one"...
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No voodoo, he was born of a virgin with a little help from the Father.:)
 
PistisSophia said:
No disrepect here, but nothing turns me off more than the insistence of there being a voodoo type of occurrence to bring forth an "annointed one"...
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Actually yes that was disrespectful, and you know it.

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
Actually yes that was disrespectful, and you know it.

Q
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I beg pardon, please.

I believe that all the players in the Old Testament and the New Testament were born of man and woman together; perhaps in the spirit of something greater than themselves, but by man and woman, nonetheless.

Somewhere in the Old Testament, and I am not sure where, but there is something about there being an natural explanation for everything, even the miraculous. There is not supposed to be "looking into the future", nor believing anything out of natural order.

I will try to find the exact passage........

Again, I am sorry if I have offended anyone.

I can explain a "burning bush" as lightening, for instance, thus having a natural origin. That's what I believe; that every "miraculous event" has a logic and order in nature.
 
PistisSophia said:
I beg pardon, please.

I believe that all the players in the Old Testament and the New Testament were born of man and woman together; perhaps in the spirit of something greater than themselves, but by man and woman, nonetheless.

Somewhere in the Old Testament, and I am not sure where, but there is something about there being an natural explanation for everything, even the miraculous. There is not supposed to be "looking into the future", nor believing anything out of natural order.

I will try to find the exact passage........

Again, I am sorry if I have offended anyone.

I can explain a "burning bush" as lightening, for instance, thus having a natural origin. That's what I believe; that every "miraculous event" has a logic and order in nature.
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No worries mate. The voodoo thing was just a bit hard to swallow. It really isn't like that. When there is no plausible explanation, faith comes strongly into play. ;)

Oh, I do have question for you to consider...How is it that the burning bush, was on fire as we are told, but was never consumed by the flames, as we are also told? Scientifically, in a controled environment, plasma will do this (burn without consuming anything but itself), but this was on a mountainside about 2700 years ago....things that make one go hmmm.

v/r

Q
 
Or explain the resurrection of Christ.. Or Lazarus for that matter. How about the many miracles of Jesus. How about the Flood? Jonah survived in the belly of a whale for 3 days. Not to mention that 1/3 of the bible is prophecy..
 
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