I think part of why this issue concerns me, and probably part of why it seems complicated to me, is that racially I am Jewish. My ancestors were German Jews who moved to the US in the late 20's early 30's and by the time my mom gave birth to me she had been completely "assimilated" into Christian culture.
you know, cerealkiller, that if your mother is jewish then you are also jewish? if you want to talk about this further with me, send me a PM.
I always find it fascinating that many Christians are fixated on the ten commandments, rather than either the 7 Noahide laws or the 613 mitzvot. It doesn't really make sense to me why this is.
i would say that on one hand they've heard of the ten, but not of the seven or the 613. of course, there's also a way to derive all the 613 from the ten - half of the ten being between humans and the Divine and the rest between humans and other humans.
an interesting little piece of gematria, incidentally - the quintessential convert to judaism is ruth, whose name is numerically equivalent to 606. by converting, she added 606 new commandments to her original 7, thus making 613!
For example, I have heard in numerous churches the idea that the OT Jewish G!D is wrathful, demands perfection (and thus the need for the sacrificial lamb), is separated from humanity, etc. I've heard it presented many times that Judaism is legalistic, and isn't focused on a personal relationship with G!D. Then I talked to some Jews I know and read a bit and find out that this isn't how it is at all.
good to hear that people aren't just believing the sloppy, self-justificatory thinking that is peddled in more chauvinistic quarters.
I could write a small novel on the inaccuracies I've discovered so far, and the significance they have for our understanding of the message of Jesus.
oh, for sure. i seem to remember writing something (might have been here) on how the parable of the "good samaritan" has a completely different message if you are aware of some of the legal issues germane to that situation - something which i am convinced that jesus would have been familiar with, even if his audience wasn't.
Messianic Jews have not only embraced the Torah.. but they have embraced the NT as coming from G!D. How come Jews cannot accept that the Messianic Jews believe that the Messiah has already come whereas the Jews believe that He is still to come?
the point is that they weren't jewish in the first place. they were set up specifically from a christian perspective, with the sole aim of converting jews. and, from our PoV, the idea that we need converting or saving by christians is both laughable and offensive, given the past relationship the various churches have had with judaism, quite aside from the fact that jesus is, from our perspective, demonstrably *not* the Messiah.
look, i don't have a problem referring to the NT, or the Qur'an, or the Guru Granth Sahib for that matter, as holy books which have in some sense "come from G!D". it's not especially controversial, nor does it detract from the holiness of the Torah. i believe Torah stands on its own merits as a text and does not require 'fulfilment' or 'decorruption'. the problem is that these people say that *jesus* is the *jewish Messiah*.
They have obviously branched off from Judaism and cannot be considered part of Judaism and I think that people should try not to be offended by the title of Messianic Jew since that is how they choose to refer to themselves
we can't agree with that any more than we can agree that caligula, xerxes, bar kochba, shabbetai tzvi, jacob frank or the late lubavitcher rebbe z"l were the jewish Messiah for the simple fact that they *don't fulfil the criteria required*. it is quite simply fraudulent for someone to claim, from a *jewish perspective*, that jesus did so. if you want to claim that jesus is a path to G!D, fair enough, that's manifestly the case. if you want to claim that he was more than a man and that his mother was a virgin, you are entitled to do so - that is an unprovable matter for belief and a foundation for theological speculation. but in terms of his Messiahship, the criteria are not met from our criteria - period. to claim, as this group does, that he is the jewish Messiah is intellectually dishonest and theologically bogus and they have no other reason for doing so other than to convince other jews to follow them. their entire
raison d'etre is to subvert judaism and for this reason it cannot be borne. and as a personal aside, i don't understand the point of sending the Messiah twice.
A lot of the laws from the Old Testament do not seem to be followed today among the Jews to the fullest, and yet Christians mostly disregard them in whole.
amica, they may not be followed today by many jews, but *absolutely all of them* remain valid and binding, even the ones which we can no longer fulfil in the original form. if you have a particular example in mind, i can try and explain to you how it is observed today!
I personally see them separate, because I do not believe Jews and Christians believe in the same G!D.
as a jew and, moreover, in the light of what i have previously written, i can tell you that i believe strongly (and am supported in this by normative jewish thought) that we consider that not only christians, but also muslims believe in the same G!D as us - although we may differ about how G!D is to be obeyed. of course, from our perspective, G!D does not include jesus in any special capacity other than as an exceptional and inspiring human being and a great teacher.
b'shalom
bananabrain
