angels or demons?
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Bandit
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i cannot tell exactly what you are looking for Daya. it says angels demons but everyone is talking Jesus/God.dayaa said:i hope more people with varying views might add to this thread to get a broad range of ideas. to me, consistency is important, and people interpret things in so many different ways, some of which do not seem to be consistent. to put it very basically, either God does or doesn't/ can or can't in some way assume human form.....what i am looking for is a consistency that i can relate to. path has acheived that by taking it all as to some extent metaphorical. as i understand it though, most christians believe jesus to be more literally the "son of God" or "God incarnate" and to me it seems necessary to find a precedent for that in previous scripture. it seems a bit odd to insist that God has no physical form in one breath then in the next talk about the son of God. to my mind, either jewish interpretation of scripture where God has no physical form, never did, never will do, is right.....in which case jesus cannot be God incarnate either, or jesus was in some form God incarnate in which case we need a precedent for that concept from scripture (as i suggested above).
thanks everybody....keep the comments coming
i see God the same way the Jews & Muslims do & kind of like Path of One does. ONE spirit without form. plain & simple. i see Jesus as a man. plain & simple.
the scripure tells us the mystery of Jesus has been revealed in the apostles & prophets writings. it does not say the mystery of God has been revealed. so what are you trying to understand? Jesus or God?
the reason so many see an incarnation is because of the preeminence of Jesus & that yes He did literally exist prior to his life as a man in the NT. the eternal high priest would be without father or mother.
i can run all the beliefs out from memory, (which version do you want to hear?) I made a note to you awhile back, if the way others see it, does not work for you all the way through come & see me. that is still open.
i know you are smart & are not going to settle for anything less than what makes sense all the way through. at the same time, we cannot make Jesus less than what the scripture says he is. the Bible says he is equal with God.
i dont know what else to tell you unless you talk to me because I am not getting into a group debate with other Christians over this.
you have to take every scripture pertaining to it & not just throw a few out here & there like dice. it is NOT an easy thing to see.
Daya, how do you interpret these scriptures from Philipians? so i can see what you are seeing on this.
5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
dayaa
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hello bandit
yes at some point this thread got side tracked to a different subject....my fault
thanks for your offer to discuss this with you on a one to one basis and i will take you up on that sometime soon but not right now......i seem to have got myself in a bit of a state worrying about it all and i'm getting to mental exhaustion point. i think i need a few days break to calm down a bit .
just to explain briefly what's going on in my head: i don't have any problem with God at all....but i have a problem in knowing what is the right way to go about it. i really LIKE jesus.....the persona, the teachings, but i get tangled up in the dogma and interpretations which vary from denomination to denomination. i have a general understanding of christianity (mainstream) but lack specific knowledge particularly in the subtle differences between opinions. even different groups use different translations of the bible. i am trying to read it all for myself and draw my own conclusions, but i also find it helpful to get personal insights from people which help me to understand what i am looking for and how different people interpret it and why.
anyway...i seem to have got myself a bit bogged down at the moment, and i feel i need to do some more reading....then come back to the philosophy again with a fresh mind.
thanks again
see you soon
yes at some point this thread got side tracked to a different subject....my fault
thanks for your offer to discuss this with you on a one to one basis and i will take you up on that sometime soon but not right now......i seem to have got myself in a bit of a state worrying about it all and i'm getting to mental exhaustion point. i think i need a few days break to calm down a bit
.just to explain briefly what's going on in my head: i don't have any problem with God at all....but i have a problem in knowing what is the right way to go about it. i really LIKE jesus.....the persona, the teachings, but i get tangled up in the dogma and interpretations which vary from denomination to denomination. i have a general understanding of christianity (mainstream) but lack specific knowledge particularly in the subtle differences between opinions. even different groups use different translations of the bible. i am trying to read it all for myself and draw my own conclusions, but i also find it helpful to get personal insights from people which help me to understand what i am looking for and how different people interpret it and why.
anyway...i seem to have got myself a bit bogged down at the moment, and i feel i need to do some more reading....then come back to the philosophy again with a fresh mind.
thanks again
see you soon
B
Bandit
Guest
i totally understand. the dogma, the interpretations, the translations, the arguing etc. i went through all the same things. when you feel bogged down, that is the best thing to do, think about something different because you will always come back to the topic again. & again. & againdayaa said:hello bandit
yes at some point this thread got side tracked to a different subject....my fault
thanks for your offer to discuss this with you on a one to one basis and i will take you up on that sometime soon but not right now......i seem to have got myself in a bit of a state worrying about it all and i'm getting to mental exhaustion point. i think i need a few days break to calm down a bit
just to explain briefly what's going on in my head: i don't have any problem with God at all....but i have a problem in knowing what is the right way to go about it. i really LIKE jesus.....the persona, the teachings, but i get tangled up in the dogma and interpretations which vary from denomination to denomination. i have a general understanding of christianity (mainstream) but lack specific knowledge particularly in the subtle differences between opinions. even different groups use different translations of the bible. i am trying to read it all for myself and draw my own conclusions, but i also find it helpful to get personal insights from people which help me to understand what i am looking for and how different people interpret it and why.
anyway...i seem to have got myself a bit bogged down at the moment, and i feel i need to do some more reading....then come back to the philosophy again with a fresh mind.
thanks again
see you soon
the questions you have are truly deep mysteries & i do believe there are answers, but the answers & understanding will come when it is time & there will be no contradictions, if we keep our hearts & minds open with honesty.
and whenever you are ready Daya, i will help when i can.
see you soon too.
dayaa
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hello bandit
just a quickie.
the quotes you mentioned above i am not familiar with off the top of my head in context, i'd have to look them up, but i'll try to give a quickie answer just looking at the quotes.
hmm, well....
it seems to be saying that jesus was in some way God or part of God but in human form and he accepted the role as human...a servant (to God...i assume) and carried out that role as human right until death. being in the form of God? i don't know...we're back to the how do you interpret "form" question? it almost seems to be saying that jesus "thought" himself equal to God....because of his "form" ...which form? i don't know. his physical form? (back to the created man is his own image?)....no can't be....because the first verse almost seems to be saying that we should think like jesus....yet it can't possibly mean we should all think ourselves equal to God????? and then it goes on to jesus being made in the likeness of men....so there's your distinction....ok, try again...jesus has some "form" which is God related but the physical form of man. he accepts the role as man. and we all should accept our role as servant of God humbly (and maybe there is some question of a divine spark in all of us?) i'm getting really confused now. it's starting to sound like hinduism . could we be talking about a divine spark (a potential) which if fulfilled by choice and acceptance leads to .....something
i think i'm going to give up and look it up and see the exact context. just looking at those four verses without any context, i've read through it about 17 times already and each time i come up with a different meaning varying from the very simple and straightforward to the making my hair stand on end.
it can't possibly mean what it seems to mean. i need to look it up for clarification. i'm tired....going to leave it for another day....and i thought it was going to be a quickie!
better still, you tell me what it means to you and i'll look it up and see if i agree or not.
just a quickie.
the quotes you mentioned above i am not familiar with off the top of my head in context, i'd have to look them up, but i'll try to give a quickie answer just looking at the quotes.
hmm, well....
it seems to be saying that jesus was in some way God or part of God but in human form and he accepted the role as human...a servant (to God...i assume) and carried out that role as human right until death. being in the form of God? i don't know...we're back to the how do you interpret "form" question? it almost seems to be saying that jesus "thought" himself equal to God....because of his "form" ...which form? i don't know. his physical form? (back to the created man is his own image?)....no can't be....because the first verse almost seems to be saying that we should think like jesus....yet it can't possibly mean we should all think ourselves equal to God????? and then it goes on to jesus being made in the likeness of men....so there's your distinction....ok, try again...jesus has some "form" which is God related but the physical form of man. he accepts the role as man. and we all should accept our role as servant of God humbly (and maybe there is some question of a divine spark in all of us?) i'm getting really confused now. it's starting to sound like hinduism
. could we be talking about a divine spark (a potential) which if fulfilled by choice and acceptance leads to .....something i think i'm going to give up and look it up and see the exact context. just looking at those four verses without any context, i've read through it about 17 times already and each time i come up with a different meaning varying from the very simple and straightforward to the making my hair stand on end.
it can't possibly mean what it seems to mean. i need to look it up for clarification. i'm tired....going to leave it for another day....and i thought it was going to be a quickie!
better still, you tell me what it means to you and i'll look it up and see if i agree or not.
It does not mean to be like God, or like Jesus. It means to be God like, or "godly", in everything done, said, and thought. Knowing we aren't perfect, we strive to be better, and know we are forgiven, even before we stumble. It means to keep trying, and never give up.dayaa said:hello bandit
just a quickie.
the quotes you mentioned above i am not familiar with off the top of my head in context, i'd have to look them up, but i'll try to give a quickie answer just looking at the quotes.
hmm, well....
it seems to be saying that jesus was in some way God or part of God but in human form and he accepted the role as human...a servant (to God...i assume) and carried out that role as human right until death. being in the form of God? i don't know...we're back to the how do you interpret "form" question? it almost seems to be saying that jesus "thought" himself equal to God....because of his "form" ...which form? i don't know. his physical form? (back to the created man is his own image?)....no can't be....because the first verse almost seems to be saying that we should think like jesus....yet it can't possibly mean we should all think ourselves equal to God????? and then it goes on to jesus being made in the likeness of men....so there's your distinction....ok, try again...jesus has some "form" which is God related but the physical form of man. he accepts the role as man. and we all should accept our role as servant of God humbly (and maybe there is some question of a divine spark in all of us?) i'm getting really confused now. it's starting to sound like hinduism
i think i'm going to give up and look it up and see the exact context. just looking at those four verses without any context, i've read through it about 17 times already and each time i come up with a different meaning varying from the very simple and straightforward to the making my hair stand on end.
it can't possibly mean what it seems to mean. i need to look it up for clarification. i'm tired....going to leave it for another day....and i thought it was going to be a quickie!
better still, you tell me what it means to you and i'll look it up and see if i agree or not.
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Bandit
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it is ok Daya . I have looked at it about 10,000 times & it is a very tough passage for me too.
they are not always this difficult.
i promise to get back to this by monday/tuesday with a couple of different ways that I see it, & look at your interpretations also.
here is the definition used there for the word form in original greek. (not that it helps much this time around) LOL
3444 morphe mor-fay' perhaps from the base of 3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts); shape; figuratively, nature:--form.
3313 meros mer'-os from an obsolete but more primary form of meiromai (to get as a section or allotment); a division or share (literally or figuratively, in a wide application):--behalf, course, coast, craft, particular (+ -ly), part (+ -ly), piece, portion, respect, side, some sort(-what).
in the meantime, if you want to, get yourself a set of highlight markers. this is what i did until i got them all down....
i used blue to highlight everything about angels
pink to highlight all about Jesus & God.
orange for faith
green for all the verses about the name of Jesus
etc. etc...
this way I was able to get to them quicker & recollection made things clearer as I studied each different topic. I have lots of little notes next to my favorite scriptures too. I dont think God minds because I think He wants us to use it & study it this way. I think a little prayer before & after helps us to learn also.
see you monday & have nice weekend
. I have looked at it about 10,000 times & it is a very tough passage for me too. they are not always this difficult.
i promise to get back to this by monday/tuesday with a couple of different ways that I see it, & look at your interpretations also.
here is the definition used there for the word form in original greek. (not that it helps much this time around) LOL
3444 morphe mor-fay' perhaps from the base of 3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts); shape; figuratively, nature:--form.
3313 meros mer'-os from an obsolete but more primary form of meiromai (to get as a section or allotment); a division or share (literally or figuratively, in a wide application):--behalf, course, coast, craft, particular (+ -ly), part (+ -ly), piece, portion, respect, side, some sort(-what).
in the meantime, if you want to, get yourself a set of highlight markers. this is what i did until i got them all down....
i used blue to highlight everything about angels
pink to highlight all about Jesus & God.
orange for faith
green for all the verses about the name of Jesus
etc. etc...
this way I was able to get to them quicker & recollection made things clearer as I studied each different topic. I have lots of little notes next to my favorite scriptures too. I dont think God minds because I think He wants us to use it & study it this way. I think a little prayer before & after helps us to learn also.
see you monday & have nice weekend
B
Bandit
Guest
ok Daya. here is mine. & I think your interpretation was just fine also.
5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
we should think like Jesus did because his mind was always on God. Keep our minds on the Lord. The following kind of tells one way to do this.
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
the man Jesus (Who) being in the likeness of God, thought of it as not taking anything away from God. Jesus is equal with God. I think the 'form' here is Jesus obtained this nature & the attributes of God in his life on earth by giving up his own will to do the will of God.
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Jesus Forgot about his own reputation by becoming a servant to God & was made like men.
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
The man Jesus found his circumstance as a man, became humble and became obedient to the death of the cross. (God had given Jesus a commandment to lay down his life & Jesus was obedient)
& I think your interpretation was just fine also.5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
we should think like Jesus did because his mind was always on God. Keep our minds on the Lord. The following kind of tells one way to do this.
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
the man Jesus (Who) being in the likeness of God, thought of it as not taking anything away from God. Jesus is equal with God. I think the 'form' here is Jesus obtained this nature & the attributes of God in his life on earth by giving up his own will to do the will of God.
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Jesus Forgot about his own reputation by becoming a servant to God & was made like men.
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
The man Jesus found his circumstance as a man, became humble and became obedient to the death of the cross. (God had given Jesus a commandment to lay down his life & Jesus was obedient)