Can you renouce power?

[Quahom1]

I've started this reply several times, trying to find words skilful enough to bring this to a close without things becoming even more embarassing than they already are.

I apologize for suggesting superficiality. That was certainly a slip, arising from my frustration.

No harm, no foul. Bandit and I don't usually do the "Guard and Post" thing either...

I understand what you mean by giving up power. But can one really ever give up power? And should we try? Senator John McCain spent 5 years at the Hannoi Hilton as a prisoner of war. He is a senator today, because then LT Commander McCain refused to give in to the power of the enemy. His own personal power kept him alive.

I submit that to be without power is to be dead. We all have power of one sort or another. Even the bag lady on a DC street has the "power" to turn my head in her direction, and to convince me to open my wallet, from time to time.

Again I submit to you that there are three types of power, two of which we can do without, but one of which we can't live without.

my two cents.

v/r

Q

 

[Bandit]

No harm, no foul. Bandit and I don't usually do the "Guard and Post" thing either...

v/r

Q

Right. I never even talked to you about this. Well one time we did the Guard Post thing...when no one else wanted to do it on the sabbath (so to speak).

 

[InLove]

Hello, Kindest Regards, Peace to All Here, and...

Namaste, Vimalakirti,

Then there is the power of "words". In reading back over this thread, it seems that the misunderstandings have to do with the sort of power that one word, say a word like "superficial" can have. I know what you meant, and I know your question was serious. But I can see how that particular choice of words, especially in type instead of in person, might be taken as offensive in the context of the conversation.

Recently, I have said a couple of things on other threads that I kind of wish I hadn't said--at least not the way I said them. I have been blessed, so far, that no one has gotten too upset with me. I have been thinking of going back and apologizing, or trying to mend any bridges I may have burned, but I guess I didn't burn them all the way down, yet. I think it is really great how you and the others here have handled the whole thing.

Anyway, I guess I would have to say, something along the lines of what Q mentioned--I believe there is power outside of us, power within us, and power all around us. Sometimes there is power against us, but our power lies in how we choose to react.

Everyone breathe, and repeat "Clear blue water, clear blue water."

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Quahom1]

...Everyone breathe, and repeat "Clear blue water, clear blue water."

InPeace,
InLove

LOL water is not blue, the atmosphere just makes it look so.

sailor sends.

Q

 

[InLove]

<sigh>

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Quahom1]

<sigh>

InPeace,
InLove

Ok, ok...clear blue water, clear blue water, clear...

 

[Vimalakirti]

Viimalakirti - please consider when you post - is this the type of thing that is going to foster dialogue, or are you merely haranguing others? Please read the Code of Conduct - some of your posts are coming across close to personal attacks.

... Bruce, Moderator

I'm afraid I must disagree. Please see my email.

Shanti.

 

[Vimalakirti]

here is an article about renouncing power that i found interesting. It leans toward the fragile reality of humanity.
Christians asked by Pope to renounce power and wealth -01/06/05

Thanks for the reference, Bandit. Take care.

 

[Vimalakirti]

No harm, no foul. Bandit and I don't usually do the "Guard and Post" thing either...

I understand what you mean by giving up power. But can one really ever give up power? And should we try? Senator John McCain spent 5 years at the Hannoi Hilton as a prisoner of war. He is a senator today, because then LT Commander McCain refused to give in to the power of the enemy. His own personal power kept him alive.

I submit that to be without power is to be dead. We all have power of one sort or another. Even the bag lady on a DC street has the "power" to turn my head in her direction, and to convince me to open my wallet, from time to time.

Again I submit to you that there are three types of power, two of which we can do without, but one of which we can't live without.

my two cents.

v/r

Q

Thanks for your thoughts - though I would give you credit for more than just two cents here!

I wouldn't dispute anything you say. The problem of power can be approached from many angles, depending on one's intent and on the context. What you say about John McCain is certainly true from one side. You might equally say that he survived precisely because he gave up power. The fact that he was able to survive all of that and even pursue a successful career of public service speaks to an ability to "let go". If it were only a case of clinging to a sense of power I think he would have become a very embittered man, which clearly he has not.

Even in my not-well-received-so-far! piece I make the point that power is problematic but can't be simply given up. Perhaps one point of misunderstanding is that my piece may have been taken as some sort of statement of doctrine or against some particular doctrine, when in fact it was merely evoking a basic paradox.

Now, you may disagree here, but I don't think anyone can have a "right" answer regarding what is not after all anything with a precise definition but which is instead one of the complex grounds of the human condition. We each approach the problem following on our concrete situations and what appears to us most essential and most in need of emphasis. It shouldn't be surprising if sometimes our dialogues are no more than ships passing in the night.

Cheers. And take care.

 

[Vimalakirti]

Hello, Kindest Regards, Peace to All Here, and...

Namaste, Vimalakirti,

Then there is the power of "words".
Anyway, I guess I would have to say, something along the lines of what Q mentioned--I believe there is power outside of us, power within us, and power all around us. Sometimes there is power against us, but our power lies in how we choose to react.

Everyone breathe, and repeat "Clear blue water, clear blue water."

InPeace,
InLove

And namaste to you, In Love. Thanks for your gentle words, and for your own thoughts on the mysteries of power.

Shanti.

 

[Vimalakirti]

I think that one thing that needs to be pointed out that hasn't so far is that the replys have been in general - as far as I can tell - from one particular faith community. I think the situation might have been less polarized and more nuanced if we'd had replys from a greater range of perspectives.

Cheers to all.

 

[Vimalakirti]

Hello, Kindest Regards, Peace to All Here, and...


Everyone breathe, and repeat "Clear blue water, clear blue water."

InPeace,
InLove

BTW, You might be interested in "Walking meditation" posted in the Buddhism section.

Shanti.

 

[InLove]

Namaste, Vimalakirti

BTW, You might be interested in "Walking meditation" posted in the Buddhism section.

Funny you should mention that! I believe you will find I have already commented on that one!

InPeace,
InLove

 

[lunamoth]

I had to check and make sure this is the Belief and Spirituality forum . My 2 c, worth 1 c after inflation, is that it is appropriate to pose challenging ideas in these fora, as long as it is done respectfully. If we are just here to pat each others backs, hug and "tolerate" each other we are not going to really get to the heart of the beliefs of others or to examine our own beliefs very deeply. Huge blocks of cut and paste verbage (usually copied from someone else's website) are not very inviting, but when someone has a different way of opening dialog, in V's case using fresh poetry and creative prose, I don't think that should automatically warrent alarm. Anyway, I know the moderators here do a great job and it's a fine line. I'll post my reaction to the poem in another post so this can be removed if it's too off topic.

lunamoth

 

[lunamoth]

I think where I have a hard time getting a handle on this question is in setting up power (ego) in opposition to love (selflessness). I'm not sure it's a real dichotomy as it is painted in the poem. As someone, I think V, said in a follow up post, you can gain (a form of) power by giving up power. It's like matter and energy, it can change forms.

I like the poem because it illustrates the millions of ways large and small we transform, give up, harness power minute to minute in our lives. It's not like we can have a pat answer or a definite set of rules to help us decide how to direct power. I always go back to the metaphor of living in tension between our ideal (perfect compassion, justice) and what we can actually do in this world. You can't throw up your hands and say it's impossible, but you also can't ignore the reality (feeding the kids) of your life. You keep making those day to day decisions striving toward the ideal.

The idea that seemed to stir up trouble, that only God has absolute power, is provacative (no kidding!). But if you believe, as Christians do, that all that you have and all that you are is not really yours, or his or theirs, but God's, then this makes sense. The problems start when you think that you have absolute (there's that word again) knowledge of God's will and in effect take that power and authority for yourself.

lunamoth

 

[InLove]

The words you say and the way you say them make so much sense to me. I will stop fawning soon. I am just so very glad to have you back here.

I do not throw bouquets as a rule--but that does not mean I do not wish to.

Can one renounce power? I suppose one can try. Personally, I cannot imagine why one would choose to do so.

Well, anyway, as usual, I am
InPeace,
InLove

 

[lunamoth]

The words you say and the way you say them make so much sense to me. I will stop fawning soon. I am just so very glad to have you back here.

I do not throw bouquets as a rule--but that does not mean I do not wish to.

Can one renounce power? I suppose one can try. Personally, I cannot imagine why one would choose to do so.

Well, anyway, as usual, I am
InPeace,
InLove

<looks over shoulder> I guess you are addressing me! Thank you InLove. No, it's not good for my humility work but I appreciate your words. It's good to be back and I will try not to hog the boards. Just excited to see so many interesting conversations going on.

peace,
lunamoth

 

[Vimalakirti]

The idea that seemed to stir up trouble, that only God has absolute power, is provacative (no kidding!). But if you believe, as Christians do, that all that you have and all that you are is not really yours, or his or theirs, but God's, then this makes sense. The problems start when you think that you have absolute (there's that word again) knowledge of God's will and in effect take that power and authority for yourself.

lunamoth

Hmm, I detect some careful reading on your part. But this leads you to some dangerously well-founded opinions, and where's the fun in that?!?

I agree that here is the nub of this world-shaking controversy. Also, earlier in your post, what you say about power "changing form" touches on another important point that I've also mentioned - the multivalent nature of the word. Power is used by people to refer to wonderfully pure notions like some élan vital, the holy spirit, the intangible suchness of reality, and so on.

The problem is again, as you point out, the confusion between these more spiritual notions on the one hand and good old fashioned will to power as it operates down here, in our messy neighbourhoods on the other, where many a street corner yahoo claims to be God's messenger. (BTW, according to Jung, people who mistake their own will for God's are victims of "mythic inflation".)

My piece was manifestly not about the Holy Spirit, Atman, the Ground of Being or any such high-toned notion of power. It was about the much less exalted temptations of power that you and I, frail beings, fall prey to.

No matter how holy & good we think we are, how in touch with the spirit, how positive our outlook, I submit that we should never be too comfortable, this side of our Transfiguration.

In the same way, no matter how worked out our metaphysical system, with all the i's dotted and t's crossed, with every angel in its place and all bases covered, I don't think we should ever forget that every metaphysic is also an ideology of power, and that every beneficent institution is also an institution of power, and that the minute we lose our suspicion of these powerful structures is the minute we land in deep doo-doo. Though I'm not sure I got the spelling right on doo-doo!

Cheers & Metta on this and every day.

 

[lunamoth]

In the same way, no matter how worked out our metaphysical system, with all the i's dotted and t's crossed, with every angel in its place and all bases covered, I don't think we should ever forget that every metaphysic is also an ideology of power, and that every beneficent institution is also an institution of power, and that the minute we lose our suspicion of these powerful structures is the minute we land in deep doo-doo. Though I'm not sure I got the spelling right on doo-doo!Cheers & Metta on this and every day.

I agree. I should have ended my post that the problems start when we try to take that absolute authority for ourselves, our church, our religion, our nation.

I'll have to start looking harder for the places where we disagree to keep it interesting.

lunamoth