Praying

[dauer]

BB,

my last post wasn't very serious. I was trying to be as hippyish as possible by blending yiddishisms with words that have been adopted by new age like "karma", "gaia", also a good reference to Deut, and my declaration that all I really want to do is sing, along with some very grandiose statements about what this time and place means. The internet just isn't the place for humor. Oh well...

I actually had figured you somewhat to the left of mainstream Orthodoxy based on some thing's you'd said which I cannot recall. And there is definitely room to argue a number of groups are "leading edge." I don't think we can really know what the leading edge is until we've grown beyond it. In retrospect, it all becomes clearer. When it comes to interfaith, a small group that I think is doing amazing things, particularly in their approach, is The Tent of Abraham, Hagar, and Sarah. I honestly don't know how much of a difference this website does make, but as it is a website, I would imagine it is minimal.

I can understand your interest in using instruments that have been traditionally Jewish, but I would question how they became Jewish, and why other instruments cannot become Jewish in the same way, or similar ways as global communication expands. The hasidim find great significance in the violin, yet there were no violins in Israel. And this would be my question when it comes to most issues of integrating foreign practice, including reformatting mitzvot set by chazal, such as replacing maariv with meditation. Or even mitzvot set by the Torah.

But I think that there are many approaches and one of the things I am wrestling with right now is how to find balance between tradition and innovation without being held back by the tradition, but instead doing as I believe our ancestors did, and continuing to birth it in a new stage of development. I, however, think Renewal is moving away from the time of breaking away from the old ways of doing things to a sustained time of building roots, where innovation will be slower and will have more to do with building foundation, so that from that ground more creation outward can take place, and greater wrestling.

Dauer

 

[pohaikawahine]

there is a connection to the brain in the motion of rocking and swaying .... sometimes people do it when they have pain (to lessen the pain), and sometimes you see it when people have taken certain types of drugs, and it is seen in types of prayer and sometimes when one is deep into a mantra .... it is a relaxing technique (thus used for babies when we rock them) .... I suspect, but am not sure, that it is like a sedative for the brain that may allow one to go to those spaces between thoughts, the void .... now this has piqued my interest, I'll have to do some further research on rocking and the brain .... me ke aloha pumehana, pohaikawahine

 

[bananabrain]

my last post wasn't very serious.

neither was mine! humour is important - as is correct (ie UK) spelling.

I actually had figured you somewhat to the left of mainstream Orthodoxy based on some things you'd said which I cannot recall.

that's more or less right except my theological outlook is kabbalistic, therefore usually associated with extreme right-wingness. i just don't see why that is except that kabbalah generally makes people more categorical (and therefore hard-and-fast) - although i think it is important to maintain one's humility and sense of being a "beinoni", which is where i think the hasidic and mercaz ha-rav kabbalists have gone decisively wrong. they're so convinced they're humble vessels of the Divine Will that they are kind of being arrogant bastads on G!D's behalf, if you see what i mean.

I don't think we can really know what the leading edge is until we've grown beyond it. In retrospect, it all becomes clearer.

oh, i agree with that; i just think that there's a difference between the leading edge and the fringe - and the fringe extends in all directions, not just the left. that's the only point i was making.

I can understand your interest in using instruments that have been traditionally Jewish, but I would question how they became Jewish, and why other instruments cannot become Jewish in the same way, or similar ways as global communication expands.

that's just because i'm a folkie and a traditionalist, but you are of course right. i'm just pointing out that my first port of call would be the traditional instruments of the community from the country in question, that's why nusach is so important. by extension, therefore, i suppose the djembe and the steel-string have become the folk instruments of american jewry the same way the cajón was imported into flamenco from its original tango. i wonder if anyone's built an ayelet ha'shahar for the authentic recreation of tehillim?

The hasidim find great significance in the violin, yet there were no violins in Israel.

don't get me started on what those guys think about music. this is one place i have very little patience with hasidic theology. everything is seen through the lens of the souls (and therefore the soul music) of the nations deriving from the "impure" qelippot, which is why you have to ruin their tunes by turning everything into crap nigunim which as everyone knows is the only way to redeem the holy sparks. GAH.

And this would be my question when it comes to most issues of integrating foreign practice, including reformatting mitzvot set by chazal, such as replacing maariv with meditation. Or even mitzvot set by the Torah.

i guess you and i would probably just vary in degree - i'd never *replace* ma'ariv (or 'arbith as we sephardim say) but i might adapt it to work better as a meditation.

one of the things I am wrestling with right now is how to find balance between tradition and innovation without being held back by the tradition, but instead doing as I believe our ancestors did, and continuing to birth it in a new stage of development.

and i would also flip that around and try to avoid being held back by the need for change, to look back as well as sideways for models.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[pohaikawahine]

just want to sneak in a little word here (I've enjoyed this exchange between dauer and bb however, great insights into the basis of your views) .... back to "rocking" .... found a few interesting references ....


rocking causes liquid in the middle ear to move back and forth, organizes the ear for sound, including a range of frequencies - and for babies, also helps organize an infants GPS, global position system, so a baby can locate its body in space (I didn't know babies had their own GPS .... and all this time others have paid for such technology) ....

for some, it is a body language to express intense concentration .... "All my bones will say, Ha-Shem, who is like you?" - so rocking involves the entire body in prayer, not just the mind alone ....

I still think it is connected to changes in the brain and this is part of deep prayer or meditation .... aloha nui, pohaikawahine

 

[bananabrain]

pokawahine -

i'm aware of what you're saying and, yes, it is an interesting physiological idea. of course, one of the major mystical traditions is very much concerned with this sort of thing, namely the ecstatic kabbalah of abraham abulafia, which is heavily influenced by yoga and (probably) sufi techniques like the whirling of the mevlevi dervishes. it is definitely common for deep meditative states to be induced through immersions, visualisations, breathing and posture. however, these techniques are to be practiced much later in life and in conjunction with deep study of the texts.

in terms of the structure of the brain and its connection to the mystical tradition, i have definitely seen things in the zohar which discuss the structure of the partzufim in these terms and go into quite minute detail discussing things like the "skull of arikh anpin" and so on. however, it is a very involved and advanced area and i would hate to point you in the wrong direction in an area that is beyond my limited knowledge.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[dauer]

i wonder if anyone's built an ayelet ha'shahar for the authentic recreation of tehillim?"

If anyone has, I want to know about it.

everything is seen through the lens of the souls (and therefore the soul music) of the nations deriving from the "impure" qelippot, which is why you have to ruin their tunes by turning everything into crap nigunim which as everyone knows is the only way to redeem the holy sparks. GAH.

I wan't talking about niggunim. I was talking about their use of the violin.

and i would also flip that around and try to avoid being held back by the need for change, to look back as well as sideways for models.

This is also something I take into consideration. Our tradition has a lot to offer imnsho, but, also not so humbly, I would say that many other people have been doing different work and have different things to offer, and surely some truths we never tapped into, or never tapped into so deeply, that might prove useful in a Jewish context.

Dauer

 

[bananabrain]

I wan't talking about niggunim. I was talking about their use of the violin.

you mean how they talk about how the violin is somehow more soulful than other instruments? again, says more about them than it does about music.

I would say that many other people have been doing different work and have different things to offer, and surely some truths we never tapped into, or never tapped into so deeply, that might prove useful in a Jewish context

now *that* i agree with. hurrah.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[dauer]

you mean how they talk about how the violin is somehow more soulful than other instruments? again, says more about them than it does about music.

I was using their use of a violin as an example of Jews making spiritual emphasis of a "non-Jewish" instrument. Verily, David did not play the violin. The djembe doesn't get any particular spiritual emphasis in any davenen I've been to. It's merely an accompaniment to prayer.

Sidenote: I was trying to do my own type of tikun over the summer, making use of nigunim. I would take those songs which were heavily erotic and graphic, and I would strip them of their guf. And in some cases I would then implant their neshama into a holy guf from the liturgy. Verily, all physical longing is just an echo of the longing for God. nntssnntssnntssnntss. It was actually very difficult. Because of all of the singing over the summer, I had a hard time remembering those kinds of songs. Oh well. I remembered a few. Verily, they were good ones.

Dauer

 

[bananabrain]

I would take those songs which were heavily erotic and graphic, and I would strip them of their guf. And in some cases I would then implant their neshama into a holy guf from the liturgy. Verily, all physical longing is just an echo of the longing for God. nntssnntssnntssnntss. It was actually very difficult. Because of all of the singing over the summer, I had a hard time remembering those kinds of songs. Oh well. I remembered a few. Verily, they were good ones.

let me know if you ever manage that with anything by frank zappa, particularly "dinah moe humm", "keep it greasy", or "titties'n'beer". i can only imagine.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[pohaikawahine]

Sidenote: I was trying to do my own type of tikun over the summer, making use of nigunim. I would take those songs which were heavily erotic and graphic, and I would strip them of their guf. And in some cases I would then implant their neshama into a holy guf from the liturgy. Verily, all physical longing is just an echo of the longing for God. nntssnntssnntssnntss.
Dauer

aloha e dauer .... i don't know what the words 'tikun' 'nigunim' 'guf' and 'neshama' mean (are they hebrew, perhaps i should pick up a dictionary .... i think i will do that this weekend) .... anyway you state "verily, all physical longing is just an echo of the longing for god" .... and to some extent this is true, but it is also more than that .... the potent energy that runs in our bodies is released in several ways, one is sexual and the other is spiritual (I'm not talking about general feelings, but potent powerful energy) .... and many of the erotic songs have a purpose with multiple layers of meaning .... such as the 'song of songs' (one of my favorite) .... the path of desire, longing, passion actually creates a chemical change in our brains (yes, she is back to the brain) that is related to the release of dopamine .... (and i'm speaking of passionate love, not just the feeling of love) ....if the energy is moved up into the brain (and makes it past the four lower worlds of the body) it can open that place of revelation and visions .... or if we choose, we can run it in the material world and it becomes sexual ....

the sufis called themselves 'the lovers' because they teach that what matters is not how much we know but how much we love, and rumi sings in praise of the power of love ....

"love makes bitter things sweet
love turns copper to gold
with love, dregs settle into clarity
with love, suffering ceases
love brings the dead back to life
love transforms the king into a slave
love is the consummation of the spiritual path
how could a fool sit on such a throne?"

it is said that only when we can discover the soul of the torah underneath its outer garments that we can possess the secrets of the torah (from the zohar) ....and i'm learning to love the zohar and appreciate its beauty ....

it is, in my view, the ancient path of wisdom and knowledge that is revealed in the inner meaning of the erotic songs and stories .... even biblical references to these things have meanings within meanings and the most sacred meaning is not sexual but the path of spirit .... the physical process of passion and desire is needed to open the brain, without it we have just great thoughts and ideas but no action .... so it seems to me that you are in the process of looking deeply at the meanings in what you describe .... it is not easy to see this beyond its sexual implications, but it does exist and as human beings we can find happiness in both ....

here is anothe poem with three riddles ...

"this is love; to fly toward a secret sky,
to cause a hundred veils to fall each moment

first, to let go of life
in the end, to take a step without feet;
to regard this world as invisible,
and to disregard what appears to be the self.

heart, i said, what a gift it has been
to enter this circle of lovers,
to see beyond seeing itself,
to reach and feel within the breast."
Divani, Shamsi Tabriq, XXXV

the three riddles .... what is hidden in the veils, how do you step without feet, and where is the circle of lovers .... when one can answer these questions, one is on their way to discovering a special 'key'

me ke aloha pumehana, pohaikawahine

 

[BlaznFattyz]

interesting thread... if god spoke to me like a burning bush, or used angels, or talked directly through clouds, i too would indeed fall on my knees in fear, respect, and humbleness. the swaying i believe to be a natural response of rythym to prayer, and i do believe it depends on the language, as some are more eloquent and poetic than others. as far as a guide to illustrate movement or repetitive sayings, i dont believe it is necessary, as god already knows what you seek and what is in your heart.

 

[Bandit]

interesting thread... if god spoke to me like a burning bush, or used angels, or talked directly through clouds, i too would indeed fall on my knees in fear, respect, and humbleness. the swaying i believe to be a natural response of rythym to prayer, and i do believe it depends on the language, as some are more eloquent and poetic than others. as far as a guide to illustrate movement or repetitive sayings, i dont believe it is necessary, as god already knows what you seek and what is in your heart.

it seems like a mystery in a way. for me it just kind of starts happening, like peace & serenity & i have no explanation for the motion & rythym. i see others sway this way in our church during prayer sometimes. then one day saw it on TV in Judaism. it all seems natural to me now, like someone has a hold of something special.