I don't understand Strong Atheism, can someone explain it?

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human1111

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Hi all.

I really do not understand Atheists (those who refuse to acknowledge anything above matter, don't want to accept bigger reality, life after death, etc). They think they know everything when it comes to paranormal, yet they do know that they themselves lack absolute knowledge. A paradox...

What motivates them? What is so good about trying to convince everyone that we are no better than apes, that we have no absolute morals, that anything we do or achieve is doomed to decomposition, etc?

I came to a conclussion recently that their view is a Belief system, sometime even more dogmatic than religions. I mean I am sure that if a Strong Atheist
saw a truly spiritual phenomenom (Jesus, Mohammed, miracle whatever) (s)he would simply discard it as an illusion. I mean when was the last time there was a SERIOUS inquiry about "spiritual" things rather than material? Would any mainstream scientist even START to research paranormal things such as: angels, demons, life after death (only few scientists did that and they are no longer mainstream), other realities, etc?

What do you think?
 
human1111 said:
Hi all.

I really do not understand Atheists (those who refuse to acknowledge anything above matter, don't want to accept bigger reality, life after death, etc). They think they know everything when it comes to paranormal, yet they do know that they themselves lack absolute knowledge. A paradox...

What motivates them? What is so good about trying to convince everyone that we are no better than apes, that we have no absolute morals, that anything we do or achieve is doomed to decomposition, etc?

I came to a conclussion recently that their view is a Belief system, sometime even more dogmatic than religions. I mean I am sure that if a Strong Atheist
saw a truly spiritual phenomenom (Jesus, Mohammed, miracle whatever) (s)he would simply discard it as an illusion. I mean when was the last time there was a SERIOUS inquiry about "spiritual" things rather than material? Would any mainstream scientist even START to research paranormal things such as: angels, demons, life after death (only few scientists did that and they are no longer mainstream), other realities, etc?

What do you think?
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I don't know what to think about it. I have tried the approach several times & only find myself laughing to myself inside, because it is impossible for me to think that way. I do agree with you, it is a belief system just like all the others. The part I never got was why someone needs to prove something that does not exist, does not exist. The answer I always got was, "Because we can prove it"

No more than I am going to try & prove my belief that God does exist or force it on someone. Because I can? I don't think so.
Some feel both ways about it, we cannot prove or disprove it so we cannot know.

Madalyn Murray O'Hair comes to mind, but I know not all atheists are this way.

Now I see some problems when one tries to take away the things that someone believes that would be part of there belief system. Not meaning that no one can ever pray in school, but they should be able to pray anywhere at anytime within reason, while others should not be forced to say prayers. Taking God completely out of a Government or a long born anthem, poses a problem also. IMO

There are some interesting studies out on this.

Good luck with it & welcome to the boards human:)
 
Hi Dan & welcome aboard:)

here was the thought for the day from the Book of Romans at that website.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


being understood by the THINGS that are MADE. I believe in that, but not everyone has to believe the same way I do.:)
 
human1111 said:
What motivates them? What is so good about trying to convince everyone that we are no better than apes, that we have no absolute morals, that anything we do or achieve is doomed to decomposition, etc?
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I'll do my best to answer this, but I'm not atheist, and it's not a perspective I could ever take, because I've experienced God and the paranormal, as you put it, from the time I was a toddler. I do, however, have a lot of collegues and friends that are atheist.

What motivates them is life here and now. They're sick and tired of watching everybody worry about the afterlife and religious issues, while people are dying of diseases we could cure, starvation, and war. For the most part, they are pragmatic, rational people who want others to quit spending time, energy, and money on what they see is a fruitless endeavor to understand what clearly either isn't there, or isn't comprehensible, and use those resources to better people's everyday lives. Most of the atheists I know have very high ethical standards, and many work unceasingly for human rights and environmental justice, so it isn't about ditching morals to party it up. But they do have a problem with absolute moral systems because of the dischord this tends to produce between cultures and religions, which leads to more suffering.

Most of the atheists I know are very rational folks, and are operating out of their own experience, which is that many of them have tried to pray or go to church, but didn't feel they experienced anything, so they came to the rational conclusion that God and the supernatural does not exist. Many, if they are talked to in a personal context, and pressed a bit, will admit they really don't know if God exists, but will also insist that it is illogical to believe God exists simply because others tell them to do so. Without any personal indication that this is the case, they will argue, wouldn't it be hypocritical and shallow to accept such a concept solely because others wish them to do so?

Finally, you do have some folks that accept that the supernatural/paranormal exists (spirits, magic, etc.) but are still atheist- they do not believe in God. You also have folks that are deeply spiritual, many Buddhists for example, that also do not believe in God.

I mean when was the last time there was a SERIOUS inquiry about "spiritual" things rather than material? Would any mainstream scientist even START to research paranormal things such as: angels, demons, life after death (only few scientists did that and they are no longer mainstream), other realities, etc?
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This, for me, is a separate issue from atheism. I'm not an atheist, and I am a scientist, but "spiritual" things are typically not within the boundaries of science because of the method of inquiry. Science is about observable, objective, natural reality. Something has to have the capacity to be disproven to be investigated by science. Since we can't conclusively disprove angels, demons, the afterlife, etc., these things fall outside the range of what science can investigate. Science can investigate certain effects of spiritual life- like the effect of prayer on healing time, or religiousity on life span, but that still doesn't help us understand the underlying causal mechanisms behind trends that we find. Scientists today don't study these things professionally because they are not questions that science, as a method of inquiry, can answer. As for other realities, many serious and mainstream physicists are concerned with this question- check out string (or "m") theory. Fascinating work...
 
Its because they can't find a connection to God. There is nothing for them to relate to in relgion because of their own cinicism. Some don't want to believe what they can't touch or taint with their own hands.
 
hello
i agree that atheists may well have strong moral views of their own, such as being vegetarian for example. i think some atheists look around at bad things that happen and feel frustrated as to why a good and merciful god could let this happen. therefore he cannot exist. i think also "religion" does not help sometimes. i am a firm believer in God, yet i struggle with religion. sometimes it can be intellectual arrogance.....and sometimes a negative personality. many atheists will blind you with science ....yet ignore the fact that science does not necessarily disprove religion and may ,in fact ,enhance it. quite why some atheists are so determined and agressive in their wish to make all conform to their views, i'm not sure. my mother always blamed religions for preaching yet seems to find it perfectly acceptable to preach her atheism! very odd....lol.
 
Wow. Some of you have met the "nice" atheists. Howeever external looks and action mean nothing. A bank loan officer is not an altruist and neither is the salesman that gives you the deal of a lifetime. The atheists that I've met, are suicidal (ask atheist how would they feel if afterlife existed), extremely narrowminded, cannot understand basic concepts of education, and avoid any scientific evidence to the contrary. It is probably is more apparent in US, where atheist seem to be some sort of a cult, bashing christianity and in recent years Islam as well.

Just because you cannot justify "God" with your present knowledge, it does not mean that God doesn't exist. Ignorance is no excuse.

I can understand the argument that "we fear death and have invented religion to keep us hoping" and it is atleast partially correct. However when religions promote life and learning, many atheists tend to promote nihilism. I remember seeing a program on larry King about life after death, where Atheist woman claimed that she would be pissed if she woke up after death. So much for them loving life. As far as them promoting technology, that is also not the flawless argument. While technology has aided humankind, it has also brought as MANY (if not more) problems as benefits. Sometimes I wonder if our high tech progress is all worth it, until we are spiritually ready. I mean, look what we use the latest technology for: greed and military.

And to finish off. I do not see how someone who can rationally and emotionally believe to be no-better than an intelligent ape, no absolute laws, not consequences for any kinds of actions (after death), who fights to make everyone believe they are no better than yet to be decomposed wormfood.
 
I used to consider myself pretty hardcore atheist in my teens - at the heart of my objections were:

- the inability to reconcile a "loving God" with a God that allowed any degree of suffering in the world;

- the inability to reconcile the aggressive and inhumane acts of organised religion with their more humane tenets.

Principally, it was very much a reaction against Christianity, and I think you'll find a lot of self-professed Atheists are actually "anti-Christianity" rather than anti-God - because the latter is a construct that makes no sense.

So...if you don't feel a connection to God, and yet the people who claim to have one can be seen to have a bloodied oppressive history, then what does that say about God? I think that pretty much sums up a lot of atheist objection.
 
I've just joined and the first thread I read is where it all started. I too was a dedicated atheist then one day I had, what I suppose could be called a vision although it could just as easily have been an hallucination. I heard a voice at the end of my "vission" and it said "you are very fortunate, there is nothing to worry about it will be Ok in the end just go with the flow" The next day I tried to do exactly that and see where it took me. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't, but even that which appears to have failed seems to lead to a success elsewhere. I don't think there is one god though, I think there is something much more complex and it doesn’t matter what you believe its what you do that counts. I live by a simple philosophy that covers most of my life

take only what you need to be happy. if you find yourself making more than this then do something with it that might benefit others use your imagination. remember you once said "all I want is to be happy"

do not abuse the trust of others. To be loved by someone whoever they means they have trusted you in a way that gives you power over them NEVER ABUSE IT. Love is a gift you should not take lightly.

do not be afraid. when fear is used to keep the peace as it has since men decided they wanted to be ruled then the peace is nothing more than a standoff ready to collapse at any moment. no one hates you most people are good and those who aren't are most likely the ones in power, take away their power and there is nothing to fear take away the fear and they have no power.

don't hide behind a god. you are responsible for your actions even if your destiny is sorted your life is still your own. gods may over see things maybe even help out personally but they don't care any more for you than any of the other 4 billion souls in existence.

I do waffle on a bit and I bet that is not what you meant by the question other than perhaps you can be an athiest and believe in something so i guess a strong atheist has the confidence to believe in nothing but when your time comes we all want more than this.
 
I said:
my objections were:

- the inability to reconcile a "loving God" with a God that allowed any degree of suffering in the world;

- the inability to reconcile the aggressive and inhumane acts of organised religion with their more humane tenets.

Principally, it was very much a reaction against Christianity, and I think you'll find a lot of self-professed Atheists are actually "anti-Christianity" rather than anti-God - because the latter is a construct that makes no sense.

So...if you don't feel a connection to God, and yet the people who claim to have one can be seen to have a bloodied oppressive history, then what does that say about God? I think that pretty much sums up a lot of atheist objection.
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I still am a teenager though but even I have to admit that I agree with those points to an extent my main objection is though:

- Christians seem to worship Jesus in their prayers and seremonies I don't see much going Gods way.

- No matter how hard I try I can never find a spirit to talk to me. Is it because of my closed mindedness I don't know.

- How can you worship from a book that contradicts its self? In the old testiment God is some cruel unfeeling God in the one hes nice. That makes no sence to me.

- Also how can you worship from a book that is flawed so much? The Bible is written by man and so can never really comprihend Gods meaning.
 
I have met alot of athiests and it occured to me that they:

-Don't want to spend the time and energy,
-Felt no connection to god.
-Or maybe if there is no afterlfe they will not be disapointed so they just expect the worse.(Does that make since?)

This may sound really quite rude, because I have met alot of wonderful athieistic people, but isn't being athiest taking for granite the beauty of life. If we are born and just die, no afterlife, doesn't that make it seem that there is no purpose in the lives that we live?
 
geist: hello
personally i struggle with religion for all the usual reasons.....but somehow i have managed to separate God from religion and that's my current position until i study and understand more. i used to feel if i switched the tv on and there was some sheikh or priest "blah-ing on"....oh, for goodness sake shut up! but watch a science for the people type programme and i fall off my chair in wonderment.
it is looking at the "engineering" of it all that reafirms my faith. look at dna...it looks like God's machine code to me....look at how we get milk out for a new baby! the world is full of signs that we can understand if we think. but religion? well that's a lot more complicated!

flutter-fli: hello
my feelings too that atheism seems very ungrateful somehow. in my personal experience i have noticed the connection between negative personality and atheism......this may not be a general trait to all atheists but i have seen it in some. the sort of person who doesn't like anything is dissatisfied even with life and with God. some people actually seem to enjoy being miserable. personally i think i dislike negative more than atheist. i feel ok with atheists who have positive attitudes to what they are doing and why....it's the nihilism of some that i find depressing.
 
human1111 said:
Ignorance is no excuse.
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How ironic that you should say this.

[Offensive attack removed]

Strong atheism is the belief that god/s do not exist. That includes quite a few; the god of the bible, Zeus, Thor and a host of others. Try wikipedia for a readable definition, or atheism web for a more atheist slanted resource.

Consider this favourite of many atheists...

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." [/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]- Stephen Roberts.[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

[/font]...[Offensive language removed - moderator] This is the first time since I've started visiting this forum I've been disappointed by a lack of respect, I hope it is the last.
 
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Jaiket said:
How ironic that you should say this.

[removed - moderator]

Strong atheism is the belief that god/s do not exist. That includes quite a few; the god of the bible, Zeus, Thor and a host of others. Try wikipedia for a readable definition, or atheism web for a more atheist slanted resource.

Consider this favourite of many atheists...

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." [/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]- Stephen Roberts.[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

[/font]...[removed - moderator] This is the first time since I've started visiting this forum I've been disappointed by a lack of respect, I hope it is the last.
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first paragraph from wikipedia:
"Strong atheism or positive atheism is the philosophical position that God or gods do not exist. It is contrasted with weak atheism, which is the lack or absence of belief in God or gods, without the claim that God or gods do not exist. "

So much for Strong Atheist calling themselves "free thinkers", they are certainly not free from "rejection" of Gods and they are certainly tied to religions (in a reverse way).
 
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human1111 said:
So much for Strong Atheist calling themselves "free thinkers", they are certainly not free from "rejection" of Gods and they are certainly tied to religions (in a reverse way).
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While it is irelevant and again your position is based in ignorance, free thought is characterised by objective standards, evidence and reason. Free-thinkers are free from religious dogma, for instance, because it is baseless to them using the criteia above.

Please read the whole article.
 
Jaiket said:
While it is irelevant and again your position is based in ignorance, free thought is characterised by objective standards, evidence and reason. Free-thinkers are free from religious dogma, for instance, because it is baseless to them using the criteia above.

Please read the whole article.
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There are plenty of emperic methods that allow a practitioner/researcher to percieve the reality that other's have. There is sufism, some other mystic traditions, kabbalah, and even Buddhism (to some extent). So there is evidence, you just need to be objective and not filter out evidence and experiences that challange your preconcieved beliefs.

sincerely,
 
Tone it down, folks.

Discussion is impossible when people are attacked. Preceeding posts have been edited to remove the personal attacks - feel free to disagree about ideas, but do not attack others, nor use putdowns as an argument. Please refer to the Code of Conduct for appropriate behavior on this forum. Personal attacks will not be tolerated, nor abusive language. Posts containing either will be edited &/or removed by the moderators. I've edited the worst out - and what remains is at best borderline, so cool it.
 
Let me offer an idea I've already tossed out on these forums several times - though perhaps to no measurable effect!

I see people on both sides forgetting that fundamentally we're dealing with a problem of language, and so reacting more to words and verbal formulations than to reality. All traditions agree that the a word like "God" refers to reality in some ultimate sense and by definition in a sense beyond language. To use the Zen analogy, the word "god" is a finger pointing at the moon; it shouldn't be mistaken for the moon.

Of course, like every other word "God" carries different connotations and emotional baggage for different people. For example, the difference between a "personal" and "impersonal" notion of God may depend more on an emotional tone than on any meaningful difference in definition. Embedding the word in a doctrinal system brings its own problems. For example, if we didn't have theologies of a Divine Will in absolute control of history, than the problem of God allowing suffering would hardly present itself, or at least would be framed in much different terms.

Obviously, there are innumerable other ways of pointing at the moon. As another poster has already pointed out, one can experience a sense of the divine from a segment of Nova as much as from some theological argument - and this sense is quite independent of whether we verbalize the experience as designed by God or not.

As for the hardnosed variety of atheist, other posters have made some good points about why one would take that position, given some of the woeful injustices committed in the name of religion. On the other hand, following on what I've said about not confusing words with reality, I agree there can be a kind of (and please allow this, moderator, it's meant with the best of intentions!) bloodymindedness in a certain kind of atheist that equals the bloodymindedness of the worst sort of dogmatic. Both are I think talking less about the exisentence/non-existence of God as an idea than about the feelings and anxieties they have about reality.

However we conceptualize it, what ever words we use, or systems of thought we invent, the reality we're failing to adequately describe in words is extraordinary. We should measure one another not by the words we use but by the benefits the words bring and by the actions they lead us to.
 
I guess I'm what you could call a strong Atheist.

- path of one kinda nailed it, the only thing that I can add is that Atheists believe that Man created God.
.
 
hello again
i sort of suspect that man created God (in the dogmatic religious sense) but i also feel aware of a God above and beyond all that. i wonder if God gave us all an instinct to be aware of him and nothing more and that human efforts at religion may be some manifestation of that.....but at the end of the day what is actually required from us is to think with the minds God gave us.
 
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