I don't understand Strong Atheism, can someone explain it?

Good point, InLove.

Although it is controversial at this time, some scientific studies have shown that intercessory prayer has certain effects- decreases healing time, for example... even in folks that don't know they're being prayed for.

There was also a study in which a large crowd of folks got together to meditate on peace for the city of Washington D.C. for a certain period (I think it was six months- going off memory here). It significantly reduced the crime rate, which promptly shot back up to normal levels when the study ended.

There's also a variety of literature on healers from various cultures and the kinds of similarities in their brain wave patterns when in healing trances, as well as effects on enzymes from their concentrated touch. I've seen a infrared video of a guy heating up wet paper towels with his hands. I've seen an ethnographic film of a shaman curing incurable diseases through ritual that didn't involve the patients. We see a lot of wierd stuff in anthropology. Mostly the placebo effect at work, but sometimes some very genuinely wierd stuff.

I believe prayer and meditation work. The power of God and even the power of human intent do things, both spiritually and physically. That belief is based on experience, and not just scripture- and it is an experience that resonates with practically every culture and religion throughout history.

Physicists are only beginning to discover the nature of reality, and how thought may interact with matter. Remember, thought is energy- our bodies are filled with energy (literally- ever put one of those tools used for finding the electrical in walls up to your head?) and energy is not passive. I think there is great hope for science eventually getting around to better understanding the connection, and proving that there is one. The funny thing is, as great such a discovery would be for science, many ordinary folks would just think- well, duh. Shamans and mystics the world over hear about string theory and think- yes, multiverse and more dimensions- you thought there were only four and one universe?

Much as I love fantasy and science fiction- it doesn't even come close to the wierdness of reality.
 
Hare Krishna.

I hope my remarks will not disturb you but to have a good start I want to say that miracles have nothing to do with spirituality.
* especially when they don't have any connection with God or doesn't help spiritual advancement.
* E.g. one becomes cured because of the prayer of the priest, a shaman or whoever,
* if the cured person will just begin to enjoy life more vigorously there is nothing spiritual in that.

* By acting as a professional guru, mystic yogi or miracle man, one may cheat and bluff the general public and gain fame as a wonderful mystic, but all this is considered insignificant if he doesn't turn people to spiritual practice.
* IOW the real miracle is to turn the atheist to a religious person
* to turn him from the path of sense gratification to spiritual life
 
Nitai said:
Hare Krishna.

* IOW the real miracle is to turn the atheist to a religious person
* to turn him from the path of sense gratification to spiritual life
Click to expand...
The only truly religious people are those that do enough religious stuff.
That would include those that sell thier homes and then work in poverty stricken countries. The rest of you are just kidding yourselves.

Most of you are indeed, indulging in nothing more than 'sense gratification' by another name.

Jesus would not live in a comfortable home, work 9 - 5, pray for an hour a day, be in touch with his spiritual side and think religious thoughts.

No, he would have sold his house in the west and existed merely to help the unfortunate poverty stricken of the world that need so much more than most religious people give.

Religion is a good moral code, but religious people in the main elevate themselves to a mental and ethical station without any REAL WORK.
 
THUNK said:
That would include those that sell thier homes and then work in poverty stricken countries. The rest of you are just kidding yourselves.
Jesus would not live in a comfortable home, work 9 - 5, pray for an hour a day, be in touch with his spiritual side and think religious thoughts.
No, he would have sold his house in the west and existed merely to help the unfortunate poverty stricken of the world that need so much more than most religious people give.
Click to expand...
I don't think we can compare ourselves to Jesus, first off. We can seek to follow him and emulate his example, but most of us Christians believe he was either God incarnate, or God manifest fully in a human being. Either way, a pretty unique guy. Those who truly are followers of Christ will strive consistently to be like him, but I don't know too many people who think they'll get there and eventually be raising people from the dead and whatnot.

Secondly, there is a question of expediency in solving social problems. Every person is different in gifts and personality and circumstances, and God uses people in different ways.

Some of us are born and wind up as Mother Theresa- selling all our possessions and traveling to those third world hells to work directly with the poor.

Some of us are born in poverty and spend a good deal of our time just trying to survive. There are poor people here in the States, you know. It doesn't do much good to tell the local janitor to sell all his worldly possessions and get the first flight to India. He couldn't afford it, and his wife and kids- where would they be? Not everyone can be a Mother Theresa or society would collapse. We need folks who do all those regular 9-5 jobs, unless you're OK with your entire society collapsing. Furthermore, I don't think those folks should be spiritually penalized or told by others they can't advance simply because they happened to be born without the means to get them into the Peace Corps, or because they are not as intelligent as those scientists working on global issues, or because they've got kids and are trying to make ends meet. Never underestimate the power of each individual, no matter what their station in life.

Finally, like I said before- a lot of those "9-5 jobs" are involved in social work. If you know anything about the causes of poverty, for example, then you know a lot more is necessary than selling your house, heading off to Africa, and giving some farmer some help. In fact, if a bunch of people did this, it would likely impoverish those areas even more. Mother Theresa could only do what she did because other folks were working and paying for it. And a lot of us have found ways to incorporate social and environmental action into those handy 9-5 jobs that we need to eat and clothe ourselves. As Q pointed out in another thread- does 25 years of service protecting people count? Does years of educating kids in tolerance and understanding diversity count? What about folks in the non-profit world, the folks I know who are doctors and vets? Does adopting children count? Adopting abandoned animals at home? Lots of people do give a huge amount of their time to these issues- but we know now that these issues aren't solved just by shipped us all off to the third world. Somebody has to stay behind and find the cures for cancer, work in the inner-cities of the States, and figure out what is necessary to effect long-term changes to reduce inequality.

Be realistic- this isn't 2000 years ago. Everyone is not farmers and local blacksmiths. For our society to function, we need folks in all their diverse occupations. Furthermore, the third world couldn't handle a huge influx of folks who left their jobs, have no land, no home, no money (because most middle class and lower class Americans would have virtually nothing after paying for their travel fare and donating the rest, right?), no health care. What good could that do? It only works if there are other people back at home, sending in the money that funds those humanitarian projects. I think it is impractical to say that all spiritual folks need to sell out here and rush to the third world- to do what? I'm not Jesus- I can't raise all those AIDS victims in Africa from the dead single-handedly. All I can do is support research, and then support charitable organizations that get the drugs to people that need them. Without me working my 9-5er- how can I support those charities? And how many people do they need to actually ship the drugs around, versus how many they need to donate $?

It's more than just wanting to help out. One has to think through the entire problems of social and environmental justice before just assuming that the best thing for all parties involved would be this kind of craziness.
 
Hare Krishna. Everything OK?

YOU WROTE:
**** The only truly religious people are those that do enough religious stuff.
That would include those that sell their homes and then work in poverty stricken countries. The rest of you are just kidding yourselves.
**** Most of you are indeed, indulging in nothing more than 'sense gratification' by another name.
**** Jesus would not live in a comfortable home, work 9 - 5, pray for an hour a day, be in touch with his spiritual side and think religious thoughts.
**** No, he would have sold his house in the west and existed merely to help the unfortunate poverty stricken of the world that need so much more than most religious people give.
## here are few interesting things that might help you
## there are two types of religious people - the attached and the detached
## the attached - is one that likes comfortable life, to have a family, car etc
## the second type is the detached who decided to dedicate his life to spread the glories and the message of God
## QUESTION: is it so, if one is detached he can attain spiritual perfection of love of God and the other person not?
## No, both of them can attain perfection.
## the attached is advised to see everything in relation to God
## develop a spiritual vision that everything belongs to God - the family, all the property like the house, car etc.
## developing this vision he will be considered to practice real detachment although he has many things
## REAL DETACHMENT IS THEREFOR NOT IN GIVING UP THINGS BUT TO USE EVRYTHING IN THE SERVICE OF GOD

## the attached is advised to perform all his activities for the pleasure of God
## He should learn to see all living entities as equally dear to God
## ULTIMATELY in this way the attached one will develop love of God

### now about detached
### he is not living a family life; he likes to serve God all the time by dedicated preaching
### he is not a falsely renounced person
### a falsely renounced person is externally living like a mendicant but internally all the time thinks about sense gratification
### it is therefore recommended to rather practice real datachment (as above described) then false renunciation

#### the scriptures say - that both type of people are dear to God because they all the time endeavor to please Him and to develop love for Him.
 
Someone here mentioned that Christainity and Buddhism are compatible and that it is possible to be Christian and Buddhist.

I really couldnt disagree more. Similar messages of peace yes, but a Buddhist strives for enlightenment and believes that an enlightened being is infinately greater than any God. A christian believes that nothing is greater than god. How can these two be reconciled?
 
Hare Krishna

You wrote:
a Buddhist strives for enlightenment and believes that an enlightened being is infinitely greater than any God. A christian believes that nothing is greater than god. How can these two be reconciled?

There is an interesting reconciliation of this in Vedic thought

* God is the greatest; nobody is greater than Him
* That's why he is always God
* He is unconquerable by anyone

* a fully enlightened person who understands God has devotion
* God is conquered only by one thing - devotion
* therefor, sometimes it is said that the devotee who has devotion to God is greater than God
 
path_of_one said:
It's more than just wanting to help out. One has to think through the entire problems of social and environmental justice before just assuming that the best thing for all parties involved would be this kind of craziness.
Click to expand...
Its all a question of degree. There are plenty of comfortably off religious people I know, without mortgages or kids at home. They could IF THEY WANTED - let out thier home, or sell it and Bank the cash and live off the interest and then go do real good in the world for say, a couple of years.

Unfortunately most of them never will, THEY CHOOSE NOT TO, mmmmmmm.
Perhaps, Ive got it all wrong, but some people preach and read one thing from the Bible, yet never undertake the really tough choices.

It is this sector of person my fire is amied at. They may convince themselves they are good enlightened spiritual people, but many will never really put themselves out.

Just like Sir Bob Geldoff preaches one thing but doesnt follow through with his own life. He is worth £22m. He could quite easily make do on £2m and give the rest to his prescious charities - but he doesnt.
Sir Paul McKartny is worth £600m. He again preaches charity. Any truly decent person would give say £550m away, and still have £50m to live on.

Words are easy.
 
Sir Paul McKartny is worth £600m. He again preaches charity. Any truly decent person would give say £550m away, and still have £50m to live on.

Words are easy.
Click to expand...
If Paul McCartney gave away what you think he should, then the interest that he makes that keeps on giving would eventually run out.

InPeace,
InLove
 
Thunk--

My point was, yes, you may find cases of people who claim to be spiritual but are quite materialistic. Best investment and charity choices aside (InLove's point), these people are few and far between. The income gap between rich and poor is so vast, and so lop-sided... The vast majority of us "spiritual" folks are just average, struggle to make the mortgage, have a couple of kids, try to get to work on time, folks. We don't have the ability to up and leave at any moment, and we don't have the resources to liquidate to make some huge monetary impact on the world. I grew up working class, and most of my family and friends are working class, and I'm barely in the middle class now. My grandparents retired with just enough to pay their bills, and in some cases not enough, and this is pretty common in the US. Families are already strained financially by paying for themselves plus their parents. Older parents with adult children often find their kids coming back home due to employment or financial issues.

I'm all for being against materialism, but you do have to be realistic as well. There are certainly isolated cases of rich folks that claim to be deeply spiritual that aren't giving away much. But most of us really don't have a bunch of readily available assets to dip into. I do agree that many in the US could give more than they do, and they could certainly make better choices as consumers that would help in these issues. The answer is education and instilling compassion, and religion can do this. Last Sunday at church the priest spoke of just this issue- of Jesus' teachings being against materialism, and invited everyone to take a serious look at their lives. Where else are people going to receive that message? Certainly not from pop culture in the US, from the media, or from corporations. They're pushing buy, buy, buy...

As far as I can see in the US, outside of the non-profit orgs and some of us teachers, the religious institutions are some of the few organizations teaching against materialism and instilling compassion.
 
Awaiting_the_fifth said:
Someone here mentioned that Christainity and Buddhism are compatible and that it is possible to be Christian and Buddhist.

I really couldnt disagree more. Similar messages of peace yes, but a Buddhist strives for enlightenment and believes that an enlightened being is infinately greater than any God. A christian believes that nothing is greater than god. How can these two be reconciled?
Click to expand...
That was me. Personally, I don't find Christianity and Buddhism incompatible because I'm not excessively nit-picky about either. I'm more about actions and the message of peace, love, compassion, etc. than about doctrine. I've read the Buddha's teachings and other various works, and they speak to me of much of the same points made in Jesus' teachings. Personally, I never had a problem with the differences, but then again I'm fairly content to let traditions be different and not try too hard to reconcile the two.

My own take is that Buddhism is more about the journey within, as you said the striving for enlightenment, whereas Christianity is more about the journey with an outer focus- striving toward God. The interesting thing is that much of the resulting action and thought is the same.

Having studied Buddhism, I have a basic understanding of the concepts, but I'm no expert. I do know folks though that claim to embrace both- typically by bending the "rules" (concepts) from both. As for reconciling enlightened beings being greater than any God, or God being the greatest... this is one of those issues that I would just ignore. Because it wouldn't be all that important to me in practice. What I mean, is to ask the question: Is it necessary for enlightenment to believe that one will be greater than any God upon coming to it? As in, is that a necessary prerequisite? And is it not possible to understand God as an enlightened being?
 
Hare Krishna

Q. Is it necessary for enlightenment to believe that one will be greater than any God upon coming to it?
A. * Not at all. Rather one should be humble thinking oneself the lowest.
* humility attracts the mercy of God
* humility is the part of kindness and appreciation of other
* God likes that very much
* because He likes to see His family / the humanity - to appreciate each other

* desiring oneself to greater then God is an aspect of envy
* envy is the cause of material bondage in this world
* because of envy we had to leave the spiritual world

Q. is it not possible to understand God as an enlightened being?
A. * God means always full with six opulence
* one of the opulence is knowledge
* one who is enlightened is full of knowledge but
* not so much as God
* PROOF: No one has ever attained all the knowledge that God has
* Moreover, God did not become God, full of six opulence because of meditation
* God is always God
* nobody can take His position neither by attaining enlightenment nor by any other means
* love of God is the ultimate stage of enlightenment
* you love God with all His glory, greatness, opulence etc.
* you enjoy the shelter of the great
* You are the sheltered
 
Nitai, you'll do yourself a favor if you stop posting like you're a 'bot quoting from a script and switch to a dialogue format rather than posting your own canned 'question and answers' to everything - you come across like you're just spamming the forums with your quotes rather than engaging in dialogue, which is what this forum is for...

... Bruce, moderator.
 
Hare Krishna, dear moderator

I have a different view from your about discussion and exchange of spiritual knowledge. If you like you can think about it.

# you're a 'bot quoting from a script
* usually I paraphrase the scriptures and so I don't think it is 'bot quoting
* I strongly think that anything we speak should be supported by scriptures
* to speak different conclusions than what is given in the scriptures is called mental speculation. I am not into that.
* Even if I would stop to mention that something is in the Vedas the knowledge I would send to this forum would be anyway from the Vedic scriptures

# switch to a dialogue format rather than posting your own canned 'question and answers' to everything
* I appreciate your remark. But somehow this is my stile I took it from the Vedic tradition
* But I have a suggestion. Because I cannot put up all the necessary questions and doubts in my presentations maybe you can do that.
* Moreover, you can challenge or ssupport my conclusions as well and I will be very happy to see that, so, that a further discussion can evolve.
* actually, you can see yourself that some people here only post answers without questions.
* I do both. I am sure that some people would never ask certain questions. I do that for them.

# you're just spamming the forums with your quotes rather than engaging in dialogue, which is what this forum is for...
* as far as I remember spem means something undesirable
* if you noticed in my posts I always coming to the same conclusion - one should develop love for God
* if this is undesirable for you then I am really surprised
* I am actually a priest and I like to help people to understand spirituality
* if you don't want my postings and you cannot adjust to my stile of discussion then, just tell me and I will step out from this forum.
* actually I feel a bit offended by your remarks. but anyway.
 
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