thipps said:
H|,
assuming you are still here... the purpose was to give you an understanding of what i thought would be needed while in the meantime PluckyAli was attempting to answer your questions. I personally wasnt trying to address your questions at that time.. just giving what I thought was relevant background.... and its relevancy, for me atleast, lies in teh fact that i keep hearing this word in the media 'Wahhabi' but i have never met one. The media has a bad habit of making things up while the target audience has little idea of what it means or its reality in truth since often these are christian terms. The reason i gave you that information was so that you know the real and logical basis (proved from authentic hadith) what one should follow.
If the one doing this is termed in the media as a 'wahhabi', then so be it eventhough those people dont call themselves that.
Do you think Osama bin Laden is/was a wahhabi?
Hi Thipps. I’m not actively posting on these forums, since I don’t feel I currently have anything of value to contribute. So I’m really very reluctant to respond. I’m only doing this out of a sense of unfinished business, and out of respect for you.
But again, I’m puzzled by what I see as basically verbal sparring on your part. Since you have access to this site, I know you must also have access to Google. A quick search there of “Wahhabi” turns up all the information you need to know about what people outside of Saudi Arabia are talking about when they use the term. I’m not sure how this history is taught in KSA, but my information is that in the 1700’s a man by the name of Abdul Wahhab led a movement to return Islam to what he considered it’s purest form. I’m told that this form of Islam later became dominant in the peninsula, particularly with the rise of the Saudi royal family; that this form of Sunni Islam even now is distinctive to Saudi Arabia, and differs in important respects from other forms of Sunni practice. I’m told that within Saudi Arabia this approach, let’s say, to Islam is called “al-muwahhiddun”, the monotheists, or “al-ikhwan”, the brethren.
Now, some of this information may be incorrect, and I’m sure there’s much more to be said. You may feel I’m ill informed on the true nature of Islam, especially as practiced in your country, or perhaps you may view the Saudi form of Islam as simply pristine Islam, and other forms of your faith as in error. That I can understand. But when I use the term “Wahhabism” you surely know what I’m referring to, and it should be no barrier to advancing the discussion.
My concerns, as I’ve said now several times, were not about the niceties of the Hadith, or finding a better term for what outsiders mean by “Wahhabism”, but such issues as the funding of terrorism through Saudi charitable organizations, and the disturbing news of some of things that are taught in the madrassas, and so on. Like many other non-Muslims, I’m curious to know what Muslims think about all these things, and what actions or non-actions they feel should be taken. And if some of these things have been misrepresented let Muslims make these corrections and get everyone closer to the truth.
Similarly, your question on Osama Bin Laden again seems to me to be only rhetorical. Here’s my information: Osama Bin Laden is a member of a very important business family in Saudi Arabia, especially involved with construction projects; he had a falling out with the Saudi ruling family over the presence of American troops on the Peninsula (no doubt there were also other issues); Osama was raised and instructed in the Saudi form of Islam; he claims to be a strict believer, and has used, channelled – and I would say – perverted the religious feeling of some of his fellow believers to carry out, applaud or at least tolerate his violent & egotistical projects. Does that make him an al-muwahhiddun? Not unless you believe that’s what this form – or any form – of Islam stands for – and I don’t think anyone does.
But you’re quite right that Western media in general is a wasteland when it comes to reliable information on Islam and its many facets. So to my way of thinking, any solid information that Muslims can get out, on a person to person basis, the better all around. And again this is just my opinion, but while battling prejudice and correcting misconceptions is important, not all effort can be absorbed by the project of apologetics. Some of it I believe has to go to addressing hard questions.
One last word about the way I framed the questions. I’ve been accused of having “preconceptions” about religion. In a sense, that’s true. But my preconceptions have more to do with communication. This may mark me as a secular type, but I value and really only have interest in the person-to-person kind of communication I just mentioned. When anyone rains scripture or scriptural commentary over my head, my eyes almost immediately glaze over. Not that I dismiss the importance of these things. All these intricacies have their place. I’m happy to look up the references. But to me, all this comes after, not before. I want to hear the authentic voice of the person I’m talking to first. I value actual contact with the concrete situation. For me all the ideological supports, as nearly as possible, need to be bracketed, or at least temporarily set aside. Otherwise, I feel that I'm talking to a text, and not to a person.
Maybe this ill equips me for carrying on the kind of discussion you would prefer. If so, we can only bow and depart as friends.
But please! I have nothing really of interest to add. Please pull the plug on my verbal life support! I would only ask you to leave off the semantics and quibbling, and to either agree with the Administrator that my questions are improperly or too broadly put, and just drop the whole thing – even call me a fool, I don’t mind – or carry on with a discussion of the substantive issues I’ve raised, not for my benefit – I matter not in the least - but for the benefit of other members, Muslim and non-Muslim, and for Islam as a whole.
Naturally, this is only a request, and feel free to carry on the discussion in any direction you prefer, as seems best to you.
Peace & Blessings
