Did Christianity begin as an End of the World cult?

[Skeptic44]

... the Great Flood at the end of the Church of Adam,

... the fall of the Tower of Babel at the end of the Church of Noah,

... and the destruction of the Israelite nation at the end of the Israelite Church.

So it would seem that the "end of times" has more to do with the "end of an era" than anything else.

So what of the Christian Church? the Last Judgment... has already been performed, and the "Christian Era" has now come to a close which, was supposed to occur in year 1757.

... All of which has been thoroughly detailed through the works of Emanuel Swedenborg, the notable Swedish scientist, theologian - and, mystic.

___________________

Since we're talking about evidence, just a couple of small corrections to the above.

First, there was no Great Flood.

Second, there never was a man named Adam. Adam is a fictional creation of the myths in Genesis, and perhaps drawing on earlier myths, but there never was a time in human history when there was a single man named Adam.

There never was a Tower of Babel. That's a metaphor for the way different languages and customs keep people from working together.

Finally, all of this illustrates what I've been talking about: how do you tell a con game from a legitimate statement?

What is your test?

If the author tries to back up his claims by referring to mythical events, then... OK, there was a Star Trek: The Next Generation, where Commander Ryker meets a woman out of his past. Only she wasn't a real woman, she was an illusion he created in the holodeck as his ideal woman. So, when someone presented her as real, Ryker knew it was a con, an illusion.

Any "authority" - this Swedenborg you mentioned - IF a theologian's work or theory is based on a Church ending with the Great Flood, then I would have no problem saying it's a con game. Wrong False.

The same way... what I'm trying to show is, how do rational people react to a religion that seeks to control evil spirits by having a man sleep with widows? Or an exorcist who commands the evil spirits to go into a herd of swine and commit suicide?

We are not opposed to Christianity because we are afraid of it, or the consequences of ignoring it. We think it's silly because it's based on a man's authority to command "unclean spirits" - the same reaction that, hopefully, many of you had to my story about traditional or animist religions in Gangre, Kenya.

(PS - On the off chance that you were using Swedenborg as a way of making a point, I apologize for being dense. Couldn't tell whether you were serious about this drivel or not.)

 

[Skeptic44]

Evidence? What is evidence? External evidence or, evidence from within? Hence you can come up with all the external evidence in the world, and even study the scriptures day and night, but


>> unless you can come up with the evidence within,

it won't mean anything.

This is how we lead people astray, by trying to convince them through "external evidence."

________________

I have no idea what this means.

But your attempt to deny the evidence by saying it's "only" external evidence...

wow! That's one way to get around it, I suppose.

 

[Iacchus]

________________

I have no idea what this means.

But your attempt to deny the evidence by saying it's "only" external evidence...

wow! That's one way to get around it, I suppose.

It's not only a way to get around it, it's the only way to get "at it." It's a lot like the external shell of a nut. The evidence - or meat-of-the-matter - is contained within.

And once you do get at it, it's funny how the "drivel" you refer to above seems much less significant, although more plausible, and yet the difference in the way I feel is barely perceptible (kind of neutral), except that it's a lot easier to bring up. This is when I realize there are still many people out there who have been unable to ascertain it for themselves.

So in this sense I don't see the need to argue about it, except perhaps to bring up those things I've been able to ascertain for myself.

 

[Iacchus]

This one of my favorites!

A Zen koan from Alan Watts', Behold the Spirit ...

In answer to a question about the meaning of Reality an old master simply held up his fly-whisk, and another master asked one of his monks to explain the action. "The master's idea," replied the monk, "was to elucidate the spiritual along with the material, to reveal truth by means of an objective reality." "Your understanding," said the master, "is alright as far as it goes. But why are you in such a hurry to make theories about it?" At this the monk asked, "What, then, will be your explanation?" The master held up his own fly-whisk.

 

[Skeptic44]

____________

Let me show you Chapter 5 of Acts.

Acts 5:1
But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property. Ananias kept back some of the money he received for himself, with his wife's full knowledge. He took the rest of the money from the sale of (his property) , and laid it at the apostles' feet.

Acts 5:3

Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."

Acts 5:5
And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and

>> breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it. The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out,
>> they buried him.

Acts 5:7
Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.

Peter asked her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for such and such a price?" And she said, "Yes, that was the price."

Acts 5:9
Then Peter said to her, "Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and

>> they will carry you out as well."
_____________
Future tense. They "will" carry you out.//
________________
Acts 5:10
And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.

Acts 5:11
And great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.
.

____________________

Just wanted to pull this one up, to show you what I was talking about.

 

[Dave the Web]

I read some of the better points at the beginning of this topic.
I agree that Christianity was subject to many pulls among its early followers. And if those followers came together under one creed does not mean to say that all previous difference it to be edited out. The Gospels are proof of that anyway.
If there is a n end of the world cult side to early Christianity then I am all the more enriched for being made aware of it. That does not mean that this is or ever was the only side of Christianity. It has grown so precisely because it was not.

 

[benOddo]

____________

That's one possibility.

But.... isn't it also possible that men can claim they are speaking for God, even thought God has NOT ordained them?

How do we tell the difference?

What's the test?

If we don't have a test, then we are vulnerable to con games and deceptions.

One suggestion: "Proportion your belief according to the evidence."

If there is not overwhelming evidence of a miracle that violates physical laws, don't "believe" in it.

Other suggestions?

Skeptic44,
I'm amazed at your questions, in this thread. You are truly a skeptic, for all your knowledge of Scripture, and still seek understanding.
What of the world around you? Do you see and not understand?

God Almighty, reveals his plan to mankind, all through Scripture.
Read in Lev. 10:3, what is the test here?
(Just do what God wants us to do!)

And Jesus states; "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44.
When I first read this, I understood this, in this sense; No one comes to the Word, unless drawn by the Holy Spirit.

You say, "It's 1900 plus years, where is the end times? Or someone asks about the DNA of Jesus, how foolish!
You should all know, the precepts of God, in His Word. They can all be gleaned from the first book to the last. To understand His plan for man.

The known facts of DNA, that the Maternal markers genes in all men, are traceable to Eve. Unless by a stroke of luck, you can trace yourself back to the Nephilim, as in Gen.6:2

But glean what it says in verse 3, Then the Lord said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."
Now remember if we've studied the Word, we should have gleaned some precepts. What was the largest counting of weeks in the Law? (7x7+1=50) Could we understand, "My Spirit will not remain with man forever"? If 120 years, times 50, is 6000 years.

But what years would it refer to, remember Jesus said somewhere, the end will come like a flood, Lets look at Gen.7:7 Noah and his sons, his wife and his sons wives entered the ark to excape the flood.
verse 6, Noah was 600 years old. verse 5, Noah did all that the Lord commanded him.
And yet, as sure as the Lamb of God sits in heaven, the Holy Spirit was offered during two exiles, which truly are the Seventy Weeks of God.
We glean from Rev.7 that 144,000 from the twelve tribes are sealed, and taken into the Lambs Ark, after the sixth seal was opened, (Rev.6:12) twenty-four elders with harps are around the Throne.
Is it any wonder, that 6000 times 24 is 144,000 saved out of the Great Tribulation,(Rev.6:12-17)

Have you not read the latest news, this past January 7, 2004; of Astronomers newest sighting, and the fact the most powerfull nation, does not want to maintain a telescope in the sky. Why? What is the orbit of the newest sighting, its speed, it's size, it's direction to or away from Earth? (Rev.7:16)

We glean from Scriptures, the Creation week, where one day, could be as a thousand years. A Week of Seven day/years. How do we count the years? Only one place in Scriptures, at God's appointed time, are we told, by God, "This for you is your first month". The Command to go forth, and build. (in the middle of the week, maybe?) After the first 3500 years?

You asked, How do we know the difference? By searching Scripture's with a pure heart, a pure faith. Not as a scoffer, not as a sceptic.

Did Peter run an End of the World Cult? Or was it God's plan all along? Did not Jesus say, "I say only what the Father, has told me to say".?

For us to believe, what Jesus said, was from the Father.
Now thats a test for any man, for as long as the Comforter remains, a door is open for us.

Peace
ben Oddo

 

[Vajradhara]

Have you not read the latest news, this past January 7, 2004; of Astronomers newest sighting, and the fact the most powerfull nation, does not want to maintain a telescope in the sky. Why? What is the orbit of the newest sighting, its speed, it's size, it's direction to or away from Earth? (Rev.7:16)

Namaste BenOddo,

welcome to the forum.

What news are you referring to? can you post a link or somesuch so that we can view the information as well?

 

[Susma Rio Sep]

Gnashing of teeth

Dear Ben:

My theology professor in the university told us something about God providing for everything, even in hell.

In hell there is going to be the pain from burning so excruciating that the damned will scream and gnash their teeth. And those who arrive their without teeth, not to worry, God will provide. So, you can be sure that an angel will be dispensing denture to toothless arrivals.

Susma Rio Sep

 

[benOddo]

Dear Ben:

My theology professor in the university told us something about God providing for everything, even in hell.

In hell there is going to be the pain from burning so excruciating that the damned will scream and gnash their teeth. And those who arrive their without teeth, not to worry, God will provide. So, you can be sure that an angel will be dispensing denture to toothless arrivals.

Susma Rio Sep

Susma,

shalom,

Oy Vay! Let me know how things turn out for you! If you need a Dentist, I know a good one, a cousin of mine.


link: www.astronomy.com or www.space.com

peace
ben Oddo

 

[Chronicles]

I think the telescope referenced is the Hubble, which is no longer going to be serviced - according to the latest NASA plans.

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

i'm referring to this statement by benOddo:

"Have you not read the latest news, this past January 7, 2004; of Astronomers newest sighting, and the fact the most powerfull nation, does not want to maintain a telescope in the sky. Why? What is the orbit of the newest sighting, its speed, it's size, it's direction to or away from Earth? (Rev.7:16)"


however, i see nothing on the referenced links that indicate something "new" that has been seen. the space.com and astronomy.com sites are quite extensive...

 

[lunamoth]

Hi Skeptic, are you still here? You raise very interesting pointy points!

I could entertain the hypothesis that the end of the world prophecy was introduced in the very early church as the "stick" to go along with the immortality "carrot." But I don't think that was or is the heart of Christianity at all. I can also entertain the idea that the end of the world prophecy is referring to the end of a spiritual world, and that world could have been annihilated without anyone in the material world witnessing it.

As for the term "cult," well sure, why not consider the earliest Christ movement a cult. Some cults are good, some are bad, but the term cult itself is pretty neutral in my dictionary (Merriam-Webster, but it is the paperback edition after all).

I would suggest to you some of the books by John Dominic Crossan. Your points about early Christians being asked to pool their resources is addressed in his book "The Birth of Christianity." Not to convince you, just to give an example of another interpretation besides it all being a con game. Brian brought up the Essenes, who lived communally, and this is related to Crossan's hypothesis.

As for your quest for a test, you must be hoping for someone to give you this answer: Matt 7:20 Thus, by their fruit you will recongnize them.

Peace!


You wrote: How do we decide if someone is trying to deceive us? What's the test?[/QUOTE]

 

[cmptechie]

some misunderstandings

After reading your post, I looked up Acts 5, and read around it to get it into context. If you look at the end of Acts 4 you'll notice that the people in the church came under the power of the Holy Spirit, and many out of their abundance, sold lands and gave the money to the apostle's that "distribution (could be) made unto every man according to his need." (Acts 4:35)
They were not selling property in preparation for the "end of the world," but so the poor and needy could be provided with anything they needed. Also, Ananias was not condemned for not giving all the money to Peter, but for lying about the price he received for the land he sold. He could very well have told Peter, "I sold my land for so much, but I'm only contributing this much" and all still would have been well. That Ananias would want to keep some of the money in the first place tells me that he must have had some kind of debt to pay himself, and so needed the money. There is no indication that the contributions were forced in any way, but rather were voluntary. Why would someone condemn another for not making a voluntary contribution.
All Scripture must be taken in context, and when possible, the original meanings must be evaluated. Though I am a Christian, I laugh when I see people trying to discredit the Koran of the Islam religion by taking everything out of context, and not understanding the original meaning of the term. I suppose every religion must handle this in one form or another.
In summary, in no way can Christianity, by any stretch of the imagination, be considered an "end of the world cult."

____________

Let me show you Chapter 5 of Acts.

The term "End of the World cult" has lots of great examples today. Heaven's Gate suicides in San Diego, hundreds of murders by the Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandants in Africa...

...enough examples that we can write a list of common problems.

One of them - when the world doesn't end on schedule and the deadline passes, the people who sold their property and donated it to the group ask for it back. And then they are killed. (variations on New AM Standard version)

Acts 5:1
But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property. Ananias kept back some of the money he received for himself, with his wife's full knowledge. He took the rest of the money from the sale of (his property) , and laid it at the apostles' feet.
___________

So, when Ananias and his wife joined Peter's early Christian church, they were subjected to "peer pressure" that led hm to sell his land and give the money to Peter, to "lay it at Peter's feet." (Same pressure that college fellowships place on members to "tithe" by donating 10% of their income, for the rest of their lives, and "Don't worry about it until after you graduate and have a paycheck coming in.")
_______________

Acts 5:3

Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
________________

Does any of Peter's statement make any sense? After a member of the church sold a piece of his own property, SATAN took control of the man and caused him to "keep back some of the price of the land" and not give it ALL to Peter..... what kind of man was Peter? And how reputable was the group he ran? If a man decides he wants to keep some of his own money, isn't it a scam for a religious leader to say that SATAN has made him act that way?
_______________

Acts 5:5
And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it. The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him.
_____________

A popular TV show is Crime Scene Investigation. If the forensics team from CSI found the body of Ananias and did an autopsy, what would they call the cause of death? Did God strike this man dead? Wait, it gets better.
________________

Acts 5:7
Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.

Peter asked her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for such and such a price?" And she said, "Yes, that was the price."

Acts 5:9
Then Peter said to her, "Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well."
_____________
Here's the kicker. Before God strikes Sapphira dead, Peter predicts it will happen. And this prediction is much better than the one about the End of the World by a fire hot enough to melt the elements. She falls down dead on the spot.
________________
Acts 5:10
And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
_________________

So, in the early Christian church, members who held back part of their own money were struck dead by God, and the other men carried the bodies outside and buried them.

What would the CSI team rule as the cause of death?

Natural causes?

Are we being naive about this? Is this bunk?

__________________

Acts 5:11
And great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.
_______________

At least the other people in the church had enough sense to be afraid.

"Great fear" came over everyone in the church, when Peter told them how God had struck two people dead - three hours apart - when Satan made them hold back part of their money and not give it ALL to Peter.
_________________

Acts 5:12
At the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were taking place among the people;
_____________

So, in peter's re-telling of this time, he and his co-leaders were doing "many signs and wonders".... and that's right at the top of the list for "Foibles of Your Typical End of the World cult."

Very few Christians get this idea of the early Church, that Peter was running it as an "End of the World cult" and telling the members to sell their property and give him the money. But it's right there in Acts 5, possibly the only book in the Bible not based on the writings of either Peter or Paul.

 

[iBrian]

Thanks for that cmptechie - sounds like you've provided a much needed rational counter-argument.

 

[Quesocoatl]

Or should we reject 2 Peter as the predictions of another discredited End of the World cult?

I can't speak for the authors of the New Testament but it would seem clear to me that the general concensus is ultimate and utter apocalypse, seeing that it ends with the Revelation of John.

One has to keep in mind the times in which the stories were accounted.
(Fall of Egypt and, ultimately, the Roman Empire.)

Kingdom come, kingdom go.

 

[Mus Zibii]

Paul believed that messianic predictions could be derived from the Torah and Prophets and thought it was being fulfilled in his day. The Dead Sea Scrolls seem to agree. So yeah, I guess it was an End of the World Cult.

 

[Ben57]

I wish I had the time right now to sit down and give a JW point of view to all these posts but right now I am just going to say that the account mentioned below is not (by our understanding) refering to the "end of the world" but to the end of a "system of things" We are told in the Bible that the earth will last forever and Jeus taught that the meek will inherit the earth (if that is Ok with the rest of you).

JWs understand frpm the way 'world' and 'mountains' are used that these are refering to the 'world of mankind' and mountains to 'governments' so JWs understanf these verses as saying the currupt man governments will be done away with and replaced by a government by Jesus.

Now I have opened a can of worms havent I.

The NT has a letter called "2 Peter." It may have been written after Peter died, or not, but it gives some insight into what was taught in the early Church.


2 Peter 3:5

...the heavens were of old, and the earth out of water and through water standing together by the word of God, through which the then world, by water having been deluged, was destroyed;
_________

Suggests this was a group with Judaism, because it starts by quoting from the OT, the story about a Great Flood covering the entire earth to the tops of the highest moutains..
_________________________

2 Peter 3:7
and the present heavens and the earth, by the same word are treasured, for fire being kept to a day of judgment and destruction of the impious men.

2 Peter 3:8
And this one thing let not be unobserved by you, beloved, that one day with the Lord [is] as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day;

2 Peter 3:9
the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation,

2 Peter 3:10
and it will come -- the day of the Lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.
_______________

So Peter - or whoever - tells members of the early Church that "the day of the Lord" will certainly come, and when it does, the earth and the works in it shall be burnt up... that there will be a burning heat that will dissolve our planet.

Did it happen? It's been over 1,900 years and it didn't happen.

How long do we give an End of the World cult before we deny them crediblity?
____________________

2 Peter 3:11
All these, then, being dissolved, what kind of persons doth it behove you to be in holy behaviours and pious acts?

2 Peter 3:12
waiting for and hasting to the presence of the day of God, by which

>> the heavens, being on fire, shall be dissolved, and the elements with burning heat shall melt;

2 Peter 3:13
and for new heavens and a new earth according to His promise we do wait, in which righteousness doth dwell;
_____________

This was the theological foundation of early Christianity, as taught by Peter (assuming this letter preserves the teachings of Peter, even if he didn't write it.) The present earth, everything we see around us, is going to be melted, by a burning fire, and then a new heaven and a new earth will be created to take it's place.

Is the author of this letter credible? Or should we reject 2 Peter as the predictions of another discredited End of the World cult?

 

[Ben57]

I can understand why this account sounds very "ciultic" but I think there is more to this account than peolpe think.

The "christians. did not have to sell any of their possetions, it was volentary to help others that were in need.

He "expired" because he he lied. It was a scheme betwee him and his wife to make themselves look beter then they were... yes we gave ALL our money, aren't we good.... but the heart was eveil. It would have been different if they said ... look we sold our land but we can only aford to give so much to help the others... but they wanted glory for something they did not do.

____________

Let me show you Chapter 5 of Acts.

The term "End of the World cult" has lots of great examples today. Heaven's Gate suicides in San Diego, hundreds of murders by the Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandants in Africa...

...enough examples that we can write a list of common problems.

One of them - when the world doesn't end on schedule and the deadline passes, the people who sold their property and donated it to the group ask for it back. And then they are killed. (variations on New AM Standard version)

Acts 5:1
But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property. Ananias kept back some of the money he received for himself, with his wife's full knowledge. He took the rest of the money from the sale of (his property) , and laid it at the apostles' feet.
___________

So, when Ananias and his wife joined Peter's early Christian church, they were subjected to "peer pressure" that led hm to sell his land and give the money to Peter, to "lay it at Peter's feet." (Same pressure that college fellowships place on members to "tithe" by donating 10% of their income, for the rest of their lives, and "Don't worry about it until after you graduate and have a paycheck coming in.")
_______________

Acts 5:3

Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
________________

Does any of Peter's statement make any sense? After a member of the church sold a piece of his own property, SATAN took control of the man and caused him to "keep back some of the price of the land" and not give it ALL to Peter..... what kind of man was Peter? And how reputable was the group he ran? If a man decides he wants to keep some of his own money, isn't it a scam for a religious leader to say that SATAN has made him act that way?
_______________

Acts 5:5
And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it. The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him.
_____________

A popular TV show is Crime Scene Investigation. If the forensics team from CSI found the body of Ananias and did an autopsy, what would they call the cause of death? Did God strike this man dead? Wait, it gets better.
________________

Acts 5:7
Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.

Peter asked her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for such and such a price?" And she said, "Yes, that was the price."

Acts 5:9
Then Peter said to her, "Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well."
_____________
Here's the kicker. Before God strikes Sapphira dead, Peter predicts it will happen. And this prediction is much better than the one about the End of the World by a fire hot enough to melt the elements. She falls down dead on the spot.
________________
Acts 5:10
And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
_________________

So, in the early Christian church, members who held back part of their own money were struck dead by God, and the other men carried the bodies outside and buried them.

What would the CSI team rule as the cause of death?

Natural causes?

Are we being naive about this? Is this bunk?

__________________

Acts 5:11
And great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.
_______________

At least the other people in the church had enough sense to be afraid.

"Great fear" came over everyone in the church, when Peter told them how God had struck two people dead - three hours apart - when Satan made them hold back part of their money and not give it ALL to Peter.
_________________

Acts 5:12
At the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were taking place among the people;
_____________

So, in peter's re-telling of this time, he and his co-leaders were doing "many signs and wonders".... and that's right at the top of the list for "Foibles of Your Typical End of the World cult."

Very few Christians get this idea of the early Church, that Peter was running it as an "End of the World cult" and telling the members to sell their property and give him the money. But it's right there in Acts 5, possibly the only book in the Bible not based on the writings of either Peter or Paul.

 

[IMSassafras]

Greetings Everyone,

I found some time to read some other sections and thought this was an interesting topic.

What amazes me is with all the scripture-knowledgeable Christians in the world, there is no one Christian coming forth with the answers. There are, though, a ton of Christians with possibilities. To say your own Religion is "bunk" has got to be just about the last straw or possibility available. And to say Jesus the Christ may not be as creditable as you thought, that has to the next worst thing to say about your own Religion.

It would seem to me the Clergy of your Religion could give you some help, but they don't seem to know anymore than you folks. Or at least they aren't talking about it, anyways. They probably still have debt to pay off. Face it, if they knew the answers to your questions and told you, they would be out of a job. No one wants a jobless Clergyperson. Besides, the Bible says the Clergy will reject Christ's Second Coming as they did when the Jewish Clergy rejected Christ. They should be there to help with the translation, but it isn't so.

Most of the time the scriptures are tranlated literally, but they need to be translated symbolicly most of the time, instead. So all that doom, agony, and woo is me stuff doesn't cut it.

For most of the passages that were quoted, they were a mixture of prophecy for Christ, Muhammed, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah. I know, a pretty broad topic range.

As for the Christian Religion, it is real. It is NOT an end of the world cult. Jesus is Who He said He was, and He is glorified by His Second Coming.

I think that was all I was going to say. I hope I was helpful, that was my goal. Happy searching.

warmly,
Sassafras