I was merely expressing my opinion. We share opinions right? That is what you said...Awaiting_the_fifth said:I have never claimed that I know everything, in fact I honestly believe that the only thing I know for sure is that I know nothing, all I have are beliefs. However, my spiritual journey is not to find any God who has the truth, but to find the ultimate truth for myself.
Also I must say I am a little bit shocked by the tone of your reply, I dont feel that I presented my arguments in any more arrogant a way than you presented yours. No, you did not offend my sensibilities by saying that there is a god, my entire family are christian, but you do seem to be very offended by my challenging just some of your assertions.
Partially. People do mimic what they observe, but it's not a given. People observe dogs licking the floor, but do not mimic it.Quahom1 said:Man mimics what he observes (he may not know he is observing, but over time it becomes self evident). Do you agree or not?
DNA is complex. Granted.Man...builds three super machines capable of billions of calculations per second, for what? To decode human DNA.
A song is more likely to occur because a human creates it. The sounds of nature are random.Now, lets take for example the chance that nature can present to the human ear a symphony of sounds, with beat, rhythm, cresendo, climax and cull, and compare it to a human who thinks of a song, then makes the song happen...
Which is more likely to occur first? Why?
What's right in front of our noses is structure. But the universe is so hugely different from the most complex things which we know have been designed that no comparison I know of is adequate. An amoeba to Albert Einstein, perhaps.My point is that the proof of God's existence is right in front of our noses.
You are quite welcome.presser_kun said:Partially. People do mimic what they observe, but it's not a given. People observe dogs licking the floor, but do not mimic it.
I don't understand how this relates to the proof of God's existence. Perhaps you're saying that humans create/design things because God does?
DNA is complex. Granted.
A song is more likely to occur because a human creates it. The sounds of nature are random.
Your point is, I think, that structure is evidence of a creator. This is the argument from design, usually stated by way of this analogy:
Watches have structure. Watches are designed. Therefore all things with structure must be designed. The universe has structure, so it must have been designed.
Snowflakes show structure, too, but they are not designed. Snowflake structure is explained by the natural laws that govern the crystallization of water as it freezes.
You'll say that the natural causes were designed, so the snowflake is God's handiwork.
Why?
It's self-evident, you say. But it's not self-evident to me.
When you say it's self-evident you mean that it makes sense to you. But you haven't given me a reason why it makes sense to you, other than "it's self-evident."
The proof that the watch is designed is the watchmaker. I can see watchmakers, and others have seen them.
No one has seen God.
What's right in front of our noses is structure. But the universe is so hugely different from the most complex things which we know have been designed that no comparison I know of is adequate. An amoeba to Albert Einstein, perhaps.
Yet that's not a big enough difference to show how far apart the universe and our most complex human-designed thing. We know next to nothing, really next to almost nothing about the universe.
I need a reason to accept the design argument. I don't think you've provided one; you've simply used it as proof of God's existence.
Thanks for your comments, btw. They've given me the opportunity to examine what I believe to be true.
I apologise. I have asked that you back your assertions while failing to do so myself. Sorry about that.Quahom1 said:Fine, you present your evidence. "False, undeniably False, etc., means nothing"
I'm sure if you looked around (encyclopedias, zoology journals etc) you would find many examples of animals "bend[ing]" nature (construction, tool use etc).Beavers live in lodges, of which there are three types: those built on islands, those built on the banks of ponds, and those built on the shores of lakes. The island lodge consists of a central chamber, with its floor slightly above the water level, and with two entrances. One entrance opens up into the center of the hut floor, while the other is a more abrupt descent into the water.
Quahom1 said:To think that no creature but Man conceives of God is in itself arrogance in the extreme.
Science is not a religion.
Proph 1 said:One of the proof I have of God's existence is the conscience...
Quahom1 said:I came over to your block to give you a bit of your own medicine.
It hurts doesn't it?
Quahom1 said:You are quite welcome.![]()
v/r
Q
Namaste Brian,I said:There are no proofs for the existence of God - merely illustrative metaphors.
So far as I understand it, to "prove" is to quantify and measure - but I do not believe that God can be subject to either.
2c.![]()
LOL... welcome back my friend!bananabrain said:proof????
BAAAAH.
b'shalom
bananabrain
How do you deny your own existence?On the other hand, there's no proof I exist either.
Your logic is impeccable. It is your faith that is flawed. The Mods were not addressing you, they merely look out for all folk here at CR. They are a careful crew.presser_kun said:Do you have anything to say about my logic here? Are there flaws in my reasoning? I'd welcome anything you care to share.
Hi Presser Kun. I have much sympathy with what you and Awaiting the Fifth had to say in your exchange above. I started a reply earlier but got too long-winded. I’ll try to be brief. (And not succeed!)presser_kun said:Do you have anything to say about my logic here? Are there flaws in my reasoning? I'd welcome anything you care to share.
who better to decide?Proph 1 said:How do you deny your own existence?
Quahom1 said:It is your faith that is flawed.
The Mods were not addressing you, they merely look out for all folk here at CR.
I stand corrected. you are entitled to your own way of thinking. I made the mistake. You are entitled to believe in nothing. I am in no position to push otherwise.
Devadatta said:These logical proofs <snip> are a mug’s game, as you know.
Part of the problem is that we come from a tradition that finds the relation between logic and faith so problematic <snip> It’s good to keep in mind that this problematic is not universal.
I think what you find is that God in the ultimate sense is no more and no less than reality....
....sometimes it’s worse to let logic in only to appropriate it to illegitimate ends and merely to prop up dogma. As well, logic itself can be used as a barrier to authentic experience.
I don’t see any need to especially violate logic to experience faith and even to believe in a reality that other people would articulate as “God”.
Because he was the first priest? Or?Quahom1 said:Thank God for Aarron.
Peace for you as well.presser_kun said:Before anything else, I want to say that I respect your opinion. I do not want to prove anything to anyone. I do not want to be or appear to be sarcastic.
I was raised as a Christian fundamentalist. Spent many, many years as a quite earnest Christian. I still consider myself a Christian, though no longer serving Christ through the conservative Christian movement.
I want to know the truth. Truth is more important to me than anything I believe. Even more important than my belief in God.
Perhaps I'm too earnest in seeking truth. I don't know.
Hey, I could ramble for a long time, but won't. Here are my responses, honest responses, to what you said.
Please explain. It seems you think I don't have any faith. Below, you say that I'm welcome to believe nothing. How is whatever faith you think I have flawed?
Why is it so wrong to question? Surely God is strong enough to weather the questions of his children, isn't he?
Hmm. Were there other mods in the conversation here besides you? I didn't notice any other bylines indicating that.
In any event, I felt that you were addressing me. Did I misread things?
I don't think you made any mistakes. On the contrary, I am probably the one who has made them.
The only way I know how to grow in my thinking is to push the boundaries. Ask questions. Hear answers. Consider the validity of what is said. And then pray. Ask God for wisdom and discernment.
I was sincere when I thanked you for your thoughts. They have helped me. Really.
Finally, you say my logic is impeccable. I find that hard to believe. Many others smarter and more clever than me have gone around and around these issues.
Actually, I would be quite surprised if there was nothing wrong with my logic. I asked only because I don't know how else to keep the dialog going.
I wish you peace.
press, who's still seeking