Hello, my messages are in blue...
# The point is when you see the animals how they live completely depending and serving their senses, you can understand that they cannot even think about the soul. The Vedas say they don't have intelligence for that. Their intelligence is used only for taking care about eating, sleeping, meting and defending.
I think you'll find we are at odds here in a lot of places because we have quite different religious backgrounds. I communicate with animals and am very close to many, and I don't think animals serve their senses. I think they celebrate life by living in the moment. Their intelligence and emotional capacity is a lot higher than the Vedas are giving them credit for, in my honest opinion. Some animals care a great deal about sociality, about love and affection, about the others in their group- and it isn't all about survival. I've known animals who mourned so much for their animal friends that died, that they were entirely inattentive to eating, drinking, or indeed surviving at all. I guess it just depends on how one relates to animals. I'm a Christian, so I think all life has its own purpose, and yet I'm also a modern Druid, so I believe that animal spirits have wisdom and a sentience (though different from ours), and I don't at all think they are just bundles of instincts, senses, and biological mechanisms. It is obvious to me that the animals in my care are inquisitive, loving, and care deeply for each other and me. I've boarded my horses out before and all their needs were met by others (eating, etc.)- so why did they still come running up and nicker only to me? When all I do is pet them, and talk to them, and ride- by the estimation that they're all about eating and survival functions, they should love the stable manager who feeds them, not this girl who comes only to hang around and play with them.
# Therefor, they are conditioned to bodily platform of life in which nor the existence of the soul nor the existence of God can be understood.
I don't believe anyone really understands the soul or God. I think all we catch is glimpses of a really Big Something, and then filter that through our religion, culture, history, etc. I think animals, and all of nature, feel the existence of God. We humans just sit around and philosophize about it, while the animals are caught up in the moment. I don't think being caught up in the moment is necessarily a bad thing.
If you look at the dog, his main sense what he use is his nose sniffing everywhere only the stool, urine and chasing for sex. The birds are other example that are all day long busy only to look after food.
I'm sorry, but in my experience, both dogs and birds are much more interesting than that in their behaviors. Dogs play for fun all the time, and I've watched dogs just sit and enjoy the sunshine or a nice breeze. I've seen dogs go somewhere they used to go with a companion who has passed on, and pause, become quiet and subdued, seeming to remember happy times. And birds do all sorts of things, like catch certain upward drafts and just hovering, without purpose- seemingly just enjoying the breeze.
All the different animal species in similar way are only sensual and according to the Vedas are created to facilitate the fallen souls from the spiritual world to forget the existence of God. There is gradual evolution of the soul through different species. Not Darwinian evolution.
I studied a bit of Hinduism academically, and I understand what you are saying about the evolution of the soul. I just don't agree, except in an individual sense. What I mean is that I think each of us has a path of spiritual development, but I don't believe that there is a set heirarchy of levels of soul evolution, or an automatic system in place. The Vedas also said that I, as a woman, am lower in the evolution of my soul than a man, and I disagree with that as well. I think we are all unique, and it is valid for us all to experience God in different ways- some through His imminance in all creation (including the sensual experience of life), and some through philosophy, and some through service, etc.
The human body is considered to be the most suitable for self-realization. One can get education, understand things logically and scientifically etc. Moreover, only in human form of life one can control his senses or IOW not to be the servant or the slave of the senses like the animals. This sense control is required for realizing our existence as soul. Unfortunately, in the west almost no one knows the importance of controlling the senses but rather everybody is addicted to sensuality like animals. Materialists don't desire to give up bodily understanding of life and sensuality because otherwise the life would have no any meaning. Especially because they don't want to accept God.
Perhaps the human body is the most suitable for self-realization, but I don't think it is necessary to realize the self in order to realize God. I don't believe knowing God and salvation is about education, logic, or controlling the senses. I have an uncle who is severely handicapped mentally and physically- he's like a child. He can't control his senses, and he doesn't understand much. But he knows God loves him, and has faith in that. I believe He is just as spiritually evolved as me- perhaps more so in some ways- because he has the faith of an innocent. He needs no understanding to feel the love of God.
I do believe that self-control is a good thing, and materialism is not good for people (or the earth, for that matter). But I believe there is a difference between materialism and finding joy in life. Sensuality is not bad. God created all life, and gave us the wondrous capacity to feel the warmth of sunshine, His gentle touch in the breeze, to see the heavens and to hear the roar of life in the oceans. God gave us the capacity to look into another's eyes and fall in love, to hold a baby and feel that deep well-spring of nurturance. Indeed, spiritual ecstasy is itself a sensual experience- the heart-beat and breathing rate changes, we might see visions. It is often brought about in religions through sensory experiences- chanting, drumming, dancing. All of these things are filtered through our senses- they are feasts for our bodies and emotions... and our souls. I believe it is guiding sensuality in ethical action that is right, not seeking to escape from it.
Totally different perspectives, I guess? Being closest in line with Celtic Christianity and Druidry, I firmly believe in the interrelatedness of heaven and earth, God and humanity. I believe the two are intertwined, and one shouldn't seek to escape one for the other, but rather integrate the two into one balanced and joyful life.
Anyway, if you you still don't want to accept that animals cannot think about God and soul you should point out the symptoms in the animals to prove the opposite. In my life I did see only few dogs which were very pious.
Fascinating dog behavior, I must say. I don't know many pious animals, but I don't believe becoming pious is the goal. This must be a difference between your religion and my own. I believe becoming loving and joyful, faithful and peaceful is the goal. There are many, many animals (and others in nature) that live joyful lives, can instruct us on the excellent practice of celebrating the moment, of gratefulness for each moment of life God gives us. There are many animals I've met who are the epitome of loving and peaceful creatures. Indeed, unlike humans, animals rarely are aggressive for reasons not directly linked to their needs- food or self-defense. I find such behaviors more inspiring than the common human traits of being religious and philosophical, but also oppressive, greedy, and cruel. I believe God-consciousness is not the same for all species, for of course we have different brains and nervous systems- but I think the sign of God-consciousness is love, not ecstasy. The most God-conscious people that have ever existed were supremely loving beings- think of Mother Theresa and Ghandi, for example. And my dogs and horses are far more loving than many a human I meet.
I must say, this is a fascinating conversation. Reincarnation/rebirth is so often thought of as one concept by Christians, who generally reject it. But this conversation shows how the concept of reincarnation are integrated with others, and beliefs about it can be very different in different religious systems.
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